RIPTA recently received $7million from the state to cover it's bedget deficit. They are being required to do two studies in exchange for the funding.

One study is to determine if the agency should be placed under the Department of Transportation. RIPTA is currently operated by a board with a large number of members appointed by the state legislature, something that needs to change due to the Seperation of Powers legislation.

The other study, and the topic of this thread, is to determine why more people don't use RIPTA, and what can be done to get them to use it.

So that's the question, why don't more people ride, and if you were in charge, what would you do to get them to?

Aha, as a regular RIPTA rider, I can answer this question

Why don't use people use RIPTA, well, because they suck.

I started off this summer with high hopes for my daily bus ride to Providence, and for a while, it was pretty good. The past two weeks, however, its been horrible. Three times my 4:20 bus either showed up over 25 minutes late or not at all. Last week the 6:15 bus, which I ran down from our UP meeting to catch in time, didn't show up until 6:35. For people who use RIPTA daily, this is unacceptable. The reason behind this is traffic on 95 northbound, the inbound bus gets stuck in it and delays its arrival at KPlaza. If RIPTA had more buses, then inbound buses wouldn't immediately have to become outbound buses, and would be on time.

Another thing that sucks is the 14 bus being local all the way to the airport on most trips. People getting on in Narragansett and North Kingstown don't want to go up Route 1 more than half the way to Providence, its a pain in the ass and takes too long. The 66 bus (URI-Kingston) is express all the way from Routes 2&4 in East Greenwich, and coincidentally, this bus is fully packed each day, since it gets people from the suburbs to the city as quick as possible.

These reasons are all route-specific though, there are many broader reasons why nobody rides RIPTA, most of which are obvious:

-buses are uncomfortable, loud, HOT when there's no AC (and many times, there's not)
-waiting for the bus is too hot or cold in the summer/winter
-people view bus riding as reserved for use only by the "lower classes" of society.... (IMG:http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/style_emoticons/default/sick.png)
-people hate other people, and will avoid social contact as much as they can
-you might have to actually WALK to a busstop, and lets face it, walking is WAY too strenuous to have to do (IMG:http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) gee, maybe this is why we're all getting FAT.
-taking the bus almost always leads to a longer commute
-a lot of people do suburb-suburb commuting, and since this state has too few major employment/growth centers, bus service is limited to each of them, unless you do transfers which NOBODY wants to do. If we could concentrate growth in primarily Providence, Quonset Point, the Pastore Center, Pawtucket, etc., then bus service in between them all would work much more efficiently and could actually exist.

Basically, unless people cant afford a car, or are given a huge incentive to ride a bus, they won't. Currently RIPTA has the Express Travel Program for businesses to offer incentives to their employees to ride the bus or car-pool (discounted RIPTIKs, van-pools, etc.), but it is under-utilized at the businesses and not offered to enough businesses. One question I want to know is, why the hell doesn't DOT offer its employee's Express Travel options, especially considering the program IS FUNDED through DOT????

The people I talk to on the bus all take it because they don't want to pay to park downtown, so if you want people to ride the bus, then this seems to be a solution. Make parking so ridiculous, like Boston, that nobody even wants to drive. I.E., at the state offices (DOA, DOT, DOH, DEM) employees park on surface lots for free. If they would each start up a program where they charged daily for surface parking, but also gave each employee a "parking/transit" allowance and said they can spend it however they like, then many people might actually use it to pay for transit fares and avoid driving to work. And this way, nobody could beotch that they now had to pay to park, since their allowance would cover the new parking fee.

Basically, give people an incentive, and they will ride the bus.

I think people complain about public transportation no matter where they are, and that RIPTA doesn't suck as much as most people say. But Recchia's points above certainly are valid. My 93 year-old grandmother once stood on a corner waiting for the scheduled bus for forty minutes, and never rode RIPTA again, becuase she was afraid for her health (not like they give somone a seat or any kind of shelter, either).

The reason I don't use RIPTA more is because of the radial system with Kennedy Plaza as the hub. I would ride it to work, if there were any busses that went in the right direction. I live 1.5 miles from where I work, but I would have to take one bus in and transfer to another bus, making it at least a 45 minute trip to travel what is a 10-minute drive or 15 minute bike ride. I avoid driving, if I can, and ride my bike when the weather is good. I'd love to have a viable option besides driving once winter comes.

Very true, people are always willing to criticize PT. My comment that RIPTA sucks was more of a joke than anything else. It has much potential, it just needs more options and better reliability. Considering I've ridden it all summer (and years before that) and only the past two weeks I started having problems shows that its really not too bad. People's opinions of it, however, will only change if RIPTA itself changes its image. People are just too lazy for PT sometimes.

I think many people are indeed too snobby to get on a bus.

I suggest that in anticipation of a future system that will someday include light rail, some bus routes should be Bus Rapid Transit through congested areas. If not full-fledged BRT, buses could begin to use green light priority sytems and exclusive bus lanes. Any such improvements could raise the system's popularity.

If you have the money for a car then buy one, it sucks waiting for the bus when you really have to get somehwere.

This is true... I've never heard many people say, "Our public transit ROCKS." Certainly, RIPTA has some problems, many of which others here have elucidated.

While there are certainly issues of snobbery, class division, image, etc in public transit, I've seen tons of people, even the upper crust, use public transit in other cities if it:
A- Saves them time...
B- Saves them money...
C- Saves them annoyance/convenience (ex, parking, or avoiding traffic)

Our system saves none of these.

A - Timing: My biggest issue is the timing of schedules. There just aren't enough buses rapidly enough... For example, if I want to take the bus from RIH to the Prov VA, that, in the KP hub and spoke system, is nearly 45-1 hr total transit for what is a less than 15 min drive. Same goes for me going from RIH to Wayland Sq. At various schedule times, that can take over an hour from door to door for what is an 8 minute drive and a 34 minute walk (I've done it). Look at Ruchele's example as well...

B - Money: I haven't looked at this hard, but my car gets great MPG, and I would doubt I spend much more in gas per month commuting than a bus pass would cost, even with the gas price increase.

C - Annoyance/Convenience: Parking is not a big issue downtown (park at the mall for a dollar). If I'm going to Federal Hill, I'll sometimes take the bus downtown and walk (only if it's not late at night, because there are no buses back to Wayland Sq late). And as many have pointed out, the buses are just as subject to traffic as the cars...

So we win on no accounts. Then there are other problems...

Weirdness: There are lots of quirks... For example, my sister takes the 40 outbound to the JCC often. However, there is no bus inbound on the same street (Elmgrove), as the inbound 40 goes back down Blackstone, several blocks away. In the time it takes you to walk through several convoluted residential neighborhood streets to get to Blackstone from there, you could virtually be back in Wayland Sq catching another line...

Hub and Spoke: While downtown Prov as the hub has advantages (brings lots of people downtown), my guess is that the majority of workers in Prov, especially those who take the bus, don't actually work downtown. Which means the bus actually doesn't take them to where they need to go, so they absolutely need to transfer. This makes transfer timing and convenience of transfer critical, and we don't have that... Also, some line to line connectors at some denser points far from downtown wouldn't hurt...

I'm going to say something controversial. I think the RIPTA busline, as a future mass transit modality, is doomed to never be more than it already is. It can't work for everyone, and will end up not really working for most...

I think the future is to establish other modes of transit (BRT, LRT, etc.) and devote a lot of resources to encouraging tons of dense housing development around it. That way, rather than trying to connect the entire state in this diluted web, you develop a large pool of hard core residents who will likely be attracted to the housing primarily due to its proximity to the transit modality.

This is what Minneapolis did. They developed a LRT from the airport and the Mall of America into downtown. People complained this was a line to nowhere, and no one would use it, but the city crossed its fingers that development would follow the line. And now it's happening. The LRT presence is spuring tons of dense development along the line, and much of the city's huge estimated population increase in the next 10 to 20 years is going to happen along the line. Whole neighborhoods, retail and all, are forming around the LRT where none previously existed.

This is what we need to do...

- Garris

The main reasoning why I take the bus is because it saves me money, $45 a month bus pass, or over $100 a month in gas if I were to drive (since I live a miserable 18 miles from work). If I lived any closer to work, within the $45 dollar per month gas range, I wouldn't even consider taking the bus, despite being very pro-transit and anti-automobile. Right now its all about affordability for me. So, unless you live far out in the suburbs and RIPTA could save you money, nobody will really ride it because it certainly won't save you any time or hassle. Parking downtown is much less of a hassle than waiting around for a bus that's never on time and having to arrange your schedule around unreliability.

Based on this, I have to agree with the point made that our current system will never get any better. RIPTA's not quick or efficient enough for people who live in the city to use it if they have a car. And it won't save you any money if you live and work in the city, since you'd only be driving under 5 miles anyway.

So basically our current system is doomed to failure, unless, like Garris said, it is structured so it saves us time, money, or hassle. If it is going to work, either parking needs to become way overpriced or horredous, or more government subsidized incentive programs need to be initiated. And who wants to spend money on those when you're already wasting enough money to keep RIPTA alive at all...

Hopefully the RI commuter rail system will be a start to a new form of transit for Providence. We can start with commuter stops at Warwick, EG, Wickford, Kingston, Cranston and Pawtucket. EG, Warwick, Cranston and Pawtucket stations can be integrated with Transit-Oriented Developent surrounding them until they're so dense that more frequent light rail needs to be implemented to serve them. Once these get up and going, it will be easy to justify a light rail line over to the EP waterfront and down Elmwood/Reservoir Avenues. Then we can designate Transit Revitalization Investment Districts (like Pennsylvania) all along these lines, which let the transit agency (in this case, hopefully RIPTA) share in the property tax revenues generated from these districts, and further dig them out of financial hardship.

Okay enough random rambling...

While true, this doesn't mean we should scrap it. There are too many people who depend upon it. We have to maintain what current is, but I wouldn't invest more into this system at this point...


My only worry about this is that it does nothing for Providence itself. It gives people much better reasons to live in Wickford, Kingston, or EG and leave the metro. This is what has happened in the NY Metro until very recently. The farther out MetroNorth went, the farther out development went and the bigger the hole in the donut became. I don't think we need to build up Kingston, but do need to build the Promenade, N. Main, and other areas first. I'd rather see the "transit system" build from the hub outward rather than start at the outposts and move our way in.

Alas, however, that how it seems it is going to work...

- Garris

Wow, this is depressing! I would really like to believe that ripta can become a better system. Unfortunately, I think its caught in a catch-22. In order to get more riders, it needs more routes, more frequent service, etc. to lure people. But in order to be able to provide that, ripta needs more riders, so that it has more money and more people advocating for its services! Personally, I think we need more investment in ripta. I think we are lucky to have a statewide transit system -- so many other states face fractures across municipal lines. There are obvious problems that have already been discussed here, but I hope they're not insurmountable.

I agree with Garris that commuter stops from the south on up doesn't do much for providence. He's exactly right that it will simply make it easier for people to live ever father out. And I'm all for dense development around transit, but once we start creating development just to support new light rail ... well, that sounds like sprawl to me. In addition, the commuter rail doesn't help people who use transit all the time -- to go to the grocery store, etc. We have an aging population and we need a system that is accessible to seniors, not just the office population. Once we focus all our energies on the commuter rail or light rail, I'm afraid that those who use the bus for every day living will be forgotten.

Oh, I didn't mean to scrap our current system at all, I was just saying that it will probably not get any better if it continues the way it has.

What I mean is to concentrate the growth that will occur in these areas anyway into areas adjacent to the commuter rail stops. This of course, would have to be coupled with increasing densities in the capital city as well. And places like Kingston should just remain the way they are. EG, Warwick, Pawtucket and Cranston sites are already urban now, so adding more urban density to them would work. There is infrastructure in place in all of them and it wouldn't be creating new sprawl in disguise developments in the middle of the woods.

The hub, Providence, is pretty healthy now as far as development goes, so I don't think creating "growth center" nodes would be too detrimental. As long as they are in existing urban areas, which they are. You're right though, there are plenty of areas in Providence that could use some building up with transit to them.

i read most of the main points of this. i don't use ripta and i have never used ripta. i have a car and i drive to work. i also think i'd be able to take the bus for free (PC students can by showing their ID, i have a similar looking ID), but i still don't. the bus is just not convenient for me (of course it doesn't help that there's no good bus route between where i live and where i work, hell i walk to work some days). i'd take the bus downtown to go to a bar or something... but then i'd have to take a cab home, and i've heard plenty of bad stories about the cabs here.

i do go around providence to shop in various parts of the city, but i still drive. it's just easier and quicker.

here's one way the bus system could be better. keep the hub at kennedy plaza. that's fine, it makes sense. but this is what's necessary to make service better (and the same can be said about the T in boston). there needs to be service between the neighborhoods. like a route that goes around downtown. something like a major depot in each of the major neighborhoods (elmhurst by PC, olneyville, mount hope, college hill, elmwood, south prov, the west end, mount pleasant, etc). have each depot have a bus route that runs to and from the next one with local stops. but also have an express route from kennedy plaza to these other neighborhood depots. but keep the same routes that are currently in place there. it'd make getting downtown no more than a few bus stops for most people.

i don't know how service is outside of providence, but i haven't heard the best things about it. there should be express service to some of the bigger locations (as well as local). a few local stops in warwick that then goes express to kennedy. URI to kennedy express. newport to kennedy express. and most importantly... TF green to kennedy express. and also express routes from the major outlying areas to TF green. make flying easier.

what providence does need for better in and out service though is a light rail. the tracks are in place. this has been partially discussed, but MBTA service to providence more often and throughout the weekend. a light rail from westerly to providence that goes through the major areas, maybe even with a couple branches to hit everything. there's no reason the state is not connected to providence by light rail. but there should definitely be one from the airport to providence...

i read this somewhere, i think craigslist about a year ago... but someone suggested having underground tunnels and stations for the buses and make the buses electric. you could hit more areas that way and connect the city better. i don't know how this could be done easily, but someone did say it could be. i think with much of downtown at or only slightly above sea level that could be a problem... but who knows...

but to get me to ride the bus, it needs to be more convenient than driving. it might be if i lived outside the city, but i don't. the cities where everyone takes public transit are much larger (boston, nyc, DC, atlanta, etc). cities that are comparable to size to providence lack the amounts of people using it aside from the "lower class". one note (and i know how you people think of me and new haven), but all sorts of people take shoreline east into new haven to go to work in new haven. and that has nothing to do with trying to get to new york... i think a light rail would be useful to providence and the entire state of RI...

I think our New England style of micro-municipalities makes us forget that Pawtucket, Cranston, and Warwick are very much part of Providence, not even a Greater Providence, but anywhere else in the country they would be part of the actual city.

I agree with Recchia, growth is happening in this corridor along Route 95 and the NEC, and it should continue.

I think RIPTA is trying to be all things to all people and succeeding in being nothing for anyone. We have about three things we are trying to accomplish with our statewide transit agency. 1) providing state wide service to move people around the state and into our urban centers (Greater Providence and Newport). 2) bringing commuters into Providence (this is the commuter rail component). 3) Providing intra-urban service to urban residents (chiefly in Providence).

I don't think that RIPTA necessarily needs to be broken into three agencies, but it needs to find a way to split it's focus and address these various needs, rather than trying to create blanket policies to address them all (which obviously isn't working).




OK, I have a bunch more to write, but actually have some work to do. My bosses are so rude! (IMG:http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/style_emoticons/default/silly.png)

RIPTA does have express buses from the Airport (quite a few), URI, East Greenwich, the Park N Ride bus from WEsterly, and the Newport Ferry, although the Newport to Providence bus service is never really express.

Underground buses that are electrified a la Silver Line in Boston would be great, but really expensive unless they ran on the surface on old railroad ROW's.



The service you are suggesting is under study and design by the DOT (rail from Westerly to Providence with stops in between). It'd be heavy (commuter) rail though.

This brings up an important issue... We can all theorize all we want, but what's actually possible? Recchia, what do the powers that be think is even probable? Maybe light rail for Prov isn't possible if they've ruled out underground transit and we don't have enough overland space/use rights in the city...

I think Cotuit makes a great point. Transit should be divided between the following areas, rather than a state-wide blanket:

1 - Providence/Pawtucket/Newport Intracity transit, focusing on moving between neighborhoods within municipalities with fewer hub-spoke buses connecting neighbhorhoods to the center

2 - Regional LRT/BRT from neighboring towns (Warwick, Pawtucket, etc) into Providence... This should replace bus lines, in my opinion

3 - Commuter rail along the 95 corridor (and maybe from the Newport area as well) into Prov. This too should replace bus lines...

Regarding issue #1, this is where, in my mind, RIPTA really fails for Providence residents. Why is there no downtown looping Trolleys, with no more than a 10 minute wait (no schedule consutation needed)? Why is there no East Side looping trolley, connecting East Side Market, Wayland Sq, Wickenden, Hope Village, and Oak Hill (no schedule consultation needed)? Where is the Atwell's/Broadway/Westminster/West End looping transit, running frequently, no schedule consultation needed? Etc, etc... Right now, you can't do those things in those areas without taking like 4 separate bus lines, often needing to go through Kennedy Plaza.

Yup, we need neighborhood hubs, with those neighborhood hubs then connecting to KP, rather than every line in the city trying to cover all bases, and then connecting to KP.

- Garris

Well, way back in 1994 all the state's rail corridors were studied (LRT, Busways, Commuter rail), and the conclusion was that commuter rail (that is being done now) was the most feasible. And LRT on the East Providence P&W line (into Pawtucket and EP via the East Side Rail tunnel) would be the highest riding LRT line.

So far though, nothing else has really been done to do with LRT.

BRT down Reservoir Ave to the Pastore Center, however, has raised some interest as of late.

If the state was to look into LRT at all, first it would probably be along the Harbor Junction line down into Cranston. Then I'd say the East Side Rail tunnel to EP and Pawtucket, since it would have high ridership according to that study. Nothing in the works yet though...

LRT would do incredible things to improve RIPTA's image. RIPTA needs some sort of a fixed guideway system to improve the speed and image of the buses. LRT in the East Side tunnel makes the most sense. Also maybe an exclusive busway in the median of I-95 between downtown and the Warwick Malls which could carry many of the longer routes running to the southern part of the state and have transit stations at the major cross streets on I-95. This busway would be in addition to the commuter rail to the south. Also by busway I mean a real bus-only way not this HOV lane crap with a few buses sparsely operating in the lane.

One of the main issues I have with RIPTA is that the bus stops (outside of Kennedy Plaza) have no signs telling which bus lines stop at the stop and what their destination is. This is essential. The busier bus routes need to be marketed as "frequent service lines" by having simple high frequency schedules, low floor buses and better stops with shelters and on the main transit streets, bus bulbouts (curb extensions). A "nextbus" system displaying real-time satelite tracked arrivals would also be key.

Eventually it would be nice to see Kennedy Plaza replaced with a transit mall running the length of downtown. Perhaps take the parking lane away on Westminster and make it a bus lane running westbound/outbound (in addition to the current westbound auto lane) and do the same on Weybosset but running eastbound/inbound. With this couplet there is no loss of auto access to any street.

These are simple things that would GREATLY improve RIPTA's service. How many times have we all been at stop and wondered when the hell the next bus was, or which buses came that route?? Even something simple like they have at all the stops at Kennedy Plaza: the next time the bus comes and a simple route map. Very goodpoint PDX.

Hi Reechia,
Unless I'm missing something (which is quite possible since I'm new to Providence), there are no buses between Kennedy Plaza in Providence and the airport from 2pm until after 6pm on a Friday . . . ERRR
[http://www.ripta.com/schedules/view.php/route/66/direction/2/type/1/trip/3573]

This seems insane to me. (IMG:http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)
My thought for the RIPTA schedule planners is: If you want people to use public transportation you should make it unnecessary for them to rent a car when they come to visit. Continuous connections to a major transportation hub, like the AIRPORT, is key.

Signed,
Frustrated in Providence (IMG:http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

You're correct, the 12/14 buses don't run then, you'd have to take the 20 bus (elmwood/auburn/tfgreen). The 20 bus, though not express to the airport, does go to it from Kennedy Plaza quite frequently throughout the day. Here's the schedule: http://www.ripta.com/schedules/view.php EDIT: this link brings you to the scheduler, just click on the 20 outbound schedule at the top left...

The 12/14 buses have odd schedules with express service sometimes, none on others, no nighttime service, etc. If you wanna get to the airport during peak hours, the 12/14 is your best bet since its express to the airport, but any other time, you have to take the 20 which is local down Route 1 (elmwood ave/post road) to the airport.