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Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion


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#2441 Urbanity

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:38 AM

My point is... We're way better off if US Airways doesn't merge. US wants to be a bigger player in South America... Charlotte is the only way to grow South America.

US wants to continue to build its Euro operations... Charlotte is the only other city to expand to Europe.


I don't want to compete with Chicago, LA, Dallas, New York, Miami and Philadelphia. We'll be a hub. A big hub. But I like being the 3rd largest hub and I'd like to see US continue to grow internationally out of CLT

 

Do you believe US Airways can survive on its own?  And if it doesn't  what happens to CLT?

 

I get what you are saying and do appreciate your points, but I think the writing is on the wall for this and U.S. Airways can not survive in its current form, nor can it grow much organically going further.  The competition is too tough.

 

I think we all want the best for CLT and since we don't have a headquarter based airline but a small airline with significant hub operations here we are all anxious on their future. 

 

Personally I think CLT in 5-10 years will have come out better due to being a hub for the combined AA-US much more than we will have made out if the merger doesn't happen and US Airways goes it alone.   We're too reliant on them.


Edited by Urbanity, 25 January 2013 - 11:38 AM.


 

#2442 AirNostrumMAD

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:38 PM

I believe US will be able to survive though a little nervous (because of fuel hedges). US is having record quarters and there is an article how JP Morgan believes " stand-alone investor pessimism to be significantly misplaced".

This is a very great article that states this is US's 7th consecutive quarterly profit, US has higher profit Margins than United and Southwest and just shy of Delta and the current condition of US.

http://m.usatoday.co...le/news/1857955


I think there are better options for CLT. We will always be a hub. If US goes bankrupt, someone would take it over in pieces. US is the 10th largest airline in the world bigger than British Airways (2011 figures - don't know if that includes the Iberia Spanish Airlines merger) by passengers flown.


That said I see the concern of stand alone pessimism but I'm sure that there would be better options for CLT. Even if US goes down in flames; someone will pick up CLT.


But I know some people disagree and I'm fine and respect that. To each his own.

Edited by AirNostrumMAD, 25 January 2013 - 12:38 PM.


#2443 Miesian Corners

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:09 PM

Likewise, I'll just agree to disagree with you.  I see big things in store for CLT with an American Airlines merger.  As an employee of the city's 8th biggest employer, I want to keep my job and I want my company and city to prosper.  But long term, without a merger, don't expect to see much growth here.  The fleet plan until 2016 basically keeps the company flying a static number of aircraft.  Every A321 that is delivered simply replaces a 737-400 that is being retired.  The only fleet growth comes from eight wide-body A330-200s that are scheduled for delivery between now and 2015.  They will likely be used to replace the airline's oldest 767-200s (most of which are 25 years old).  The only way the CLT hub gets bigger and can offer service to more international destinations is if a merger takes place and there are lots of airplanes capable of inter-continental flying at the company's disposal.  An AA/US merger does that.  

By the numbers:

US Airways wide-body fleet: 27

American Airlines wide-body fleet: 123


Edited by Miesian Corners, 25 January 2013 - 01:20 PM.


#2444 dubone

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 06:53 PM

http://www.reuters.c...E90O13420130125

 

We may be closer to this than we realized.



#2445 ah59396

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:26 PM

Best line from that article:


"American has hubs in New York, Miami, Chicago, Los Angeles and Dallas/Fort Worth, while US Airways has key operations in Phoenix, Philadelphia and Charlotte, North Carolina."


Oh...so that's where Charlotte is!?!?
  • dubone, norm21499 and ricky_davis_fan_21 like this

#2446 ricky_davis_fan_21

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:43 PM

Best line from that article:


"American has hubs in New York, Miami, Chicago, Los Angeles and Dallas/Fort Worth, while US Airways has key operations in Phoenix, Philadelphia and Charlotte, North Carolina."


Oh...so that's where Charlotte is!?!?

I always wondered, thank god they told us!



#2447 dubone

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 03:00 PM

Yeah, I really thought we were beyond this after the DNC, especially in articles about US Airways.



#2448 jednc

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:40 PM

Yeah, I really thought we were beyond this after the DNC, especially in articles about US Airways.

At the risk of being told I'm off topic, I think Charlotte retains the NC because AP only recognizes certain cities  as stand alone (no state needed). Charlotte is not on this list. When a reporter is writing a story and the include a city, they usually check the AP standard to see which cities can be left as stand alone. NC gets added if that reporter checks (which most do). I contacted a reporter from the Washington Post once (about a year ago) after he had written Charlotte, NC. He explained the AP thing to me and said until AP changes it, it's unlikely it will get dropped. So, someone figure out how to contact AP and we can mount a campaign to get Charlotte added to the "no state needed" list.



#2449 Miesian Corners

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:24 AM

http://www.star-tele...ays-merger.html

 

A good read from today's Fort Worth Star-Telegram

The combined company would have hubs in eight markets: New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, Dallas/Fort Worth, Charlotte, Philadelphia and Phoenix.

Analysts expect capacity cuts at Phoenix, while DFW and Charlotte would see increased traffic.

"[Those two hubs] literally blanket Delta's megahub in Atlanta, and that opens up some interesting opportunities," Harteveldt said, adding that the combined entity could increase American's already strong presence in Latin America.

 

While a merger would certainly strengthen the domestic network, airline researcher Bill Swelbar believes that US Airways' hubs in Charlotte and Philadelphia are the jewels in a possible combination and would increase American's north-south traffic on the East Coast.  "Charlotte is a wonderful hub," Swelbar said. "It is profitable. It is efficient and US Airways has been growing that hub to where it is performing very, very well."


 

 

Edited by Miesian Corners, 31 January 2013 - 08:54 AM.


#2450 dubone

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:37 AM

At the risk of being told I'm off topic, I think Charlotte retains the NC because AP only recognizes certain cities  as stand alone (no state needed). Charlotte is not on this list. When a reporter is writing a story and the include a city, they usually check the AP standard to see which cities can be left as stand alone. NC gets added if that reporter checks (which most do). I contacted a reporter from the Washington Post once (about a year ago) after he had written Charlotte, NC. He explained the AP thing to me and said until AP changes it, it's unlikely it will get dropped. So, someone figure out how to contact AP and we can mount a campaign to get Charlotte added to the "no state needed" list.

http://academic.luth...ar/APstates.htm

 

It seems there are 30 such cities.  Hopefully at some point we can aspire to be a top 30 city in the US, and given that there are no similarly named cities in other states of any size, we can hopefully get there.

 

 

________________

 

 

I'm glad to see the analysis still saying that a combined AA hub would increase in CLT.  I agree with earlier statements that assuming this is true or at least holding steady, we will be vastly more safe in this city if we are served by one of the big 3 airlines.   US Airways management, however, has done dramatically good things with the airline and its reputation over the last few years.  I hope that the management of the combined company will have a lot of the positive components that have helped them succeed versus those that seemed to allow AA to languish.  

 

It does seem like an inevitability, so given that, it is a huge relief that there is positive outlook for CLT, whereas it was almost universally negative at the point US tried to merge with Delta.



#2451 rugger62

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:50 AM

The Associated Press Stylebook [www.apstylebook.com] requires a login to submit a request to the Editor, which requires that you purchase a product. However, the do have a twitter page @APStylebook [www.twitter.com/APStylebook], so we could start a twitter campaign to get CHARLOTTE recognized as a city not needing an abbreviation. Hell, Oklahoma City is on the list... Otherwise it will be up to the fine journalists in the City to get it done.



#2452 wend28

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:34 AM

http://www.star-tele...ays-merger.html

 

A good read from today's Dallas Star-Telegram

The combined company would have hubs in eight markets: New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, Dallas/Fort Worth, Charlotte, Philadelphia and Phoenix.

Analysts expect capacity cuts at Phoenix, while DFW and Charlotte would see increased traffic.

"[Those two hubs] literally blanket Delta's megahub in Atlanta, and that opens up some interesting opportunities," Harteveldt said, adding that the combined entity could increase American's already strong presence in Latin America.

While a merger would certainly strengthen the domestic network, airline researcher Bill Swelbar believes that US Airways' hubs in Charlotte and Philadelphia are the jewels in a possible combination and would increase American's north-south traffic on the East Coast.  "Charlotte is a wonderful hub," Swelbar said. "It is profitable. It is efficient and US Airways has been growing that hub to where it is performing very, very well."


 

 

 

I think it's interesting that AA would retain 8 hubs. I believe that really speaks to just how massive this airline would become if the AA/US merger happens, as speculated. From Charlotte's standpoint, it will be great. We'll maintain a majority, if not more, of the direct routes that we have today as the article pretty much says. But from a consumer standpoint, this won't necessarily be a good thing. Less competition, higher prices. I do hope that that someone like Delta or United has the cajones to compete and give CLT more options, especially out west. I know that Delta added a CLT>Salt Lake City nonstop route within the last year. It would be good to see some more of that. I know people want more out of Southwest, but I honestly believe they are going to be less of a discount carrier and more of a main stream legacy type airline in the next 5 years. If you haven't heard, there is already talk about them joining the "fees" crowd soon with the "no baggage fees" service going away (per their CEO). Expect a lot of their perks to go by the way side. 



#2453 WesleyHeightsWay

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:45 PM

OT question for those in the know...if a competitor of USAir offers a similar flight (same destination, just different connection), but at a significant discount...is there any way to get USAir come down on their price? 2 competitors are 20% less per ticket... Or almost $550 for a family of 4.

#2454 sharkdawg

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:12 PM

Does anyone have any perspective on whether the combined US/AA would move forward with Star Alliance or One World.  I wonder if this would have any impact on the future of the airport.  Being committed to US Air, I frequently fly United when it is cheaper knowing that I can still get my points towards US Air status.  If US Air were to go with One World, Star Alliance would lose a stronghold in Charlotte.  This could cause United to grow it's presence in Charlotte and maybe even move business away from DC.



#2455 saamh

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:58 PM

^^^ This is something I have also though about. I think it could really change the dynamics of the airport quite a bit. I think we would see British Airways make a comeback to Charlotte, and we might lose Lufthansa (not sure about this given the amount of German business in the Charlotte area) because Lufthansa used the Star Alliance as a feeder from USAIRWAYS to their flights to Munich. I think regardless of the merger all of the airlines wanted to increase their presence in Charlotte anyways but they were always limited because all of the airlines other then USAIRWAYS and JetBlue were confined to Concourse A. But if they build the new terminal soon then the other airlines will increase their presence because of the cheap operating fees out of Charlotte, I can definitely see Delta use Charlotte as a relief airport for Atlanta given their close distance to each other as well as a big presence for SouthWest. I would also be interested to see if LAN Airlines starts service to Charlotte... Only time will tell with all of this though and everything I said above is purely speculation...



#2456 AirNostrumMAD

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 12:10 AM

^^^ This is something I have also though about. I think it could really change the dynamics of the airport quite a bit. I think we would see British Airways make a comeback to Charlotte, and we might lose Lufthansa (not sure about this given the amount of German business in the Charlotte area) because Lufthansa used the Star Alliance as a feeder from USAIRWAYS to their flights to Munich. I think regardless of the merger all of the airlines wanted to increase their presence in Charlotte anyways but they were always limited because all of the airlines other then USAIRWAYS and JetBlue were confined to Concourse A. But if they build the new terminal soon then the other airlines will increase their presence because of the cheap operating fees out of Charlotte, I can definitely see Delta use Charlotte as a relief airport for Atlanta given their close distance to each other as well as a big presence for SouthWest. I would also be interested to see if LAN Airlines starts service to Charlotte... Only time will tell with all of this though and everything I said above is purely speculation...

American would love for Delta to start a reliever hub at Charlotte. Even if US Airways were alone I'd bet they'd bank roll a new terminal for Delta to open up shop. They'd lose their heads in Charlotte so fast they mine as well go to centennial Park and make a bonfire out of money.

LAN will never operate to Charlotte unless it's a JV flight operated with AMR or US.

Lufthansa staying In Charlotte despite an AMR merger is the only plausible scenario in your post. US Airways has 2 flights to Germany from CLT. Lufthansa has 1. I'm not sure Lufthansa is willing to fight for Charlotte - Germany. It's a good possibility. I'd love for Lufty to stay.

As far as British Airways goes. British Airways And American are JV partners. Meaning they are 1 airline over the Atlantic. So it's a matter of who has the aircraft best suited for the flight and the best aircraft to spare.

The only airline you could expect to grow significantly at CLT is American and OneWorld members. American will be the 9,000 lb gorilla in the room at Charlotte.

Edited by AirNostrumMAD, 31 January 2013 - 12:16 AM.


#2457 saamh

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 12:52 AM

American would love for Delta to start a reliever hub at Charlotte. Even if US Airways were alone I'd bet they'd bank roll a new terminal for Delta to open up shop. They'd lose their heads in Charlotte so fast they mine as well go to centennial Park and make a bonfire out of money.

LAN will never operate to Charlotte unless it's a JV flight operated with AMR or US.

Lufthansa staying In Charlotte despite an AMR merger is the only plausible scenario in your post. US Airways has 2 flights to Germany from CLT. Lufthansa has 1. I'm not sure Lufthansa is willing to fight for Charlotte - Germany. It's a good possibility. I'd love for Lufty to stay.

As far as British Airways goes. British Airways And American are JV partners. Meaning they are 1 airline over the Atlantic. So it's a matter of who has the aircraft best suited for the flight and the best aircraft to spare.

The only airline you could expect to grow significantly at CLT is American and OneWorld members. American will be the 9,000 lb gorilla in the room at Charlotte.

Wait sorry I don't understand your analysis of the role of Delta. Why would American want that increase in competition?

 

In regards to British Airways and potentially LAN I can see a JV partnership for the Heathrow route and maybe Rio for LAN to relieve congestion from Miami...

 

And I really feel Lufthansa will continue it Munich routes because of both Seimens and BMW...

 

Again this is all just my opinion



#2458 Miesian Corners

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:07 AM

Does anyone have any perspective on whether the combined US/AA would move forward with Star Alliance or One World.  I wonder if this would have any impact on the future of the airport.  Being committed to US Air, I frequently fly United when it is cheaper knowing that I can still get my points towards US Air status.  If US Air were to go with One World, Star Alliance would lose a stronghold in Charlotte.  This could cause United to grow it's presence in Charlotte and maybe even move business away from DC.

British Airways and American Airlines are tied together in One World.  With United's coverage of North America, Star has no need for US Airways (which is already treated like a red-headed step child by the alliance), much less a combined US/AA.  One World, however, does need a US/AA combo to make it lucrative.  One World's absence in the eastern USA has hindered it from being noticed much at all by travelers.

 

As for Lufthansa (LH), I suspect it will stay around.  BMW (literally) guarantees LH a certain amount of business class travelers by purchasing blocks of seats on an annual basis, whether they're filled or not.  Expect British Airways (BA) to show up again in CLT.  A US/AA merger would most likely bring an additional non-stop to London-Heathrow (LHR) from CLT.  I'd expect an morning departure on BA and an evening departure on AA. 


Edited by Miesian Corners, 31 January 2013 - 09:08 AM.


#2459 kermit

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:58 PM

There have been rumors about this for a while but the CBJ reports that some 'unnamed lawmakers' want to change the way CLT is operated. The discussion centers around creating an airport authority to replace the current management structure. It sounds like the authority woudl create another layer of board supervision for Jerry Orr and his successors and make the airport more of a publicly-managed entity.

 

It sounds to me like the county would like to structure a way to pull more cash out of the airport.

 

http://www.bizjourna...-01-31&page=all



#2460 LKN704

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:23 AM

Regarding a hypothetical merger and Lufthansa, it's difficult to tell whether the Munich flight stays or goes. While yes, Lufthansa does have contracts on the flight (BMW, Siemens, Daimler, Continental Ag, etc..). It's hard to tell whether Lufthansa would choose to continue the flight after the contracts expire. While there is a significant amount of O/D (origin and destination) travel between Charlotte and Munich, I have my doubts about whether Lufthansa could profitably serve CLT without a codeshare.

 

What I believe will likely happen IMHO, is for Lufthansa to attempt to continue the Munich service, albeit with an A333 or an A343 year-round instead of a A346. The flight will operate at a reduce frequency than it does now. If that doesn't work, Lufthansa will probably launch Charlotte-Frankfurt will a A343 with a two-class cabin, as there is enough O/D traffic on CLT-FRA  for Lufthansa to make the flight work, and I'm willing to bet that some of those contracts, excluding BMW could transfer over. The Frankfurt flight will all depend on how the AA takes on Germany. AA has always been weak in Germany.

 

I'm 99.999% positive that "the world's favourite airline" will resume service to CLT once the merger is completed, likely with a three-class (Business, Premium Economy, Economy) 767-300 departing in the early evening. A CLT-Europe daylight will not work, only major cities on the lines of Boston and New York can make a flight like that work, simply because most business travelers would prefer to take a redeye to Europe.

 

As for LAN, probably never going to happen. Even if they did, they would fly to Lima, Buenos Aires, or Santiago. LAN does not have a hub in Rio, although their sister carrier, TAM does.






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