160 replies to this topic

[Ezekiel]

Hi, I haven't posted in quite awhile and I'm not sure this is the right thread, but I remember some discussion at one point about the possibility of extending West Blackstock Rd. up to Fairforest Rd. or even I-85 Business Loop.  I'd say with the advent of Costco, the Spartan 16 Cinema, Holiday Inn Express, and the new motel going up across the street, such an extension cannot come soon enough.  It would make it easier for anyone from north of 85 to get to the mall and take some of the load off the Blackstock/29 intersection.  Having driven the new SC 296 route through Roebuck, I'd like to see something similar over the railroad tracks in Arcadia.

[roads-scholar]

For some reason this is not on SPAT's radar.  I was in the Westgate area Saturday and the traffic entering the mall via 29 was backed up to 26.  Traffic flow in the area needs to be thought out better.

[Spartan]

Yeah its not on the SPATS 2025 plan. Its also the first I've heard of it. It would be a good connection though.

The fact that its not on the plan doesn't mean that it won't happen. The extension of Caldwell Drive to Reidville Rd wasn't in the plan either, but the County was still able to push for it.

[Ezekiel]

Thank you for reviving this thread.  I re-read the posts from the beginning and would encourage others to do so, particularly those around #10 through 20.  These concern the need to upgrade 85 Business Loop and the political necessity of re-designating it an "Interstate" to make it eligible for federal funds.  The new federal stimulus bill consists largely of spending on infrastructure, and we certainly wouldn't want Spartanburg to miss out on its share.

To quote Roads Scholar from four years ago, concerning such a redesignation:

roads-scholar, on May 9 2005, 02:21 PM, said:

It can be done but it will require a concerted effort by the city, the county, the chamber, SPATS, Congressman Bob Inglis, and Senator Jim DeMint.  The problem is SCDOT.  For some reason, they don't want the highway redesignated.  I really don't see what the problem is.  Sure, Business 85 has some poorly designed interchanges but so do many other freeways around the country.  Back in 2000 I proposed a long-term solution to the freeway.  First, improve the exit ramps to I-585 / US-176.  Second, tackle the Hearon Circle exit ramps.  Third, construct a new diamond interchange at SC-295.  Fourth, construct a new diamond interchange at SC-9.  Finally, construct construct a concrete "Jersey Barriers" in the median.

What the people at SCDOT don't realize is that too many motorists and too many dollars are literally bypassing Spartanburg.  Interstate motorists naturally follow the tri-color interstate signs to their destinations.

[roads-scholar]

Ezekiel, on Feb 17 2009, 07:39 PM, said:

Thank you for reviving this thread.  I re-read the posts from the beginning and would encourage others to do so, particularly those around #10 through 20.  These concern the need to upgrade 85 Business Loop and the political necessity of re-designating it an "Interstate" to make it eligible for federal funds.  The new federal stimulus bill consists largely of spending on infrastructure, and we certainly wouldn't want Spartanburg to miss out on its share.

To quote Roads Scholar from four years ago, concerning such a redesignation:

Business 85 will continue to die due to (1) public apathy, (2) SCDOT's complete disinterest, (3) lack of interest from the "powers to be" in Spartanburg, and (4) lack of funding.

When, and only when Business 85 becomes enough of an eyesore for Spartanburg Community College, USC-Upstate, and Milliken to complain will something be done.  Nine years ago a group that included me proposed that SCDOT redesignate the highway Interstate 685.  The justification behind this proposal was that motorists and their dollars were bypassing Spartanburg.  The remaining commercial businesses were dying due to a lack of customers.  The Spartanburg Herald-Journal and USC-Upstate president John Stockdale enthusiastically supported the proposal.  SCDOT, the local chamber of commerce, the county government, and to my surprise, a number of major businesses along the route, were totally disinterested.  

Today, despite growing and impressive physical plants at both Spartanburg Community College and USC-Upstate, the highway continues it's slow decline.  Blight is visible at nearly every exit.  Meanwhile, motorists and their dollars speed past Spartanburg on the "new" six-lane I-85 every day.

Changing the designation to I-685 will do four things.  One, motorists, familiar and comfortable with the tri-color interstate shield are more likely to choose it as an alternate to I-85.  Second, more federal and state dollars will be available to upgrade the highway.  Third, motorists are more apt to visit downtown Spartanburg.  Fourth, with more traffic and dollars investment and reinvestment should follow.

I know that motorists, in general, believe that a route signed "Business 85" means stoplights and will avoid it.  In fact, most interstate business routes in the US are just that - business routes with stoplights.  In the US today there are only three interstate business routes that are freeways - one is Business 85 in Spartanburg.  The others two are Business 40 in Winston-Salem and Business 80 in Sacramento, California.  

Back in 2000 we did convince SCDOT to add "Freeway Loop" to the I-85 entrances to Business 85.  

In my opinion changing the designation is a no brainer.  Officially, before a a highway can be designated an interstate it must meet interstate standards.  Those standards include wide medians and shoulders, safe bridge clearance, correct interchange geometry, etc.  Admittedly, Business 85 doesn't meet those standards.  However, it met the standards before it lost it's I-85 designation in the mid-90's.  With a few basic improvements, Business 85 can easily meet the standards.

Getting dollars back into Spartanburg has been my primary motivation behind this initiative.  Even with Business 85 redesignated, many motorists will continue to bypass our city.  However, the tri-color interstate shield will attract motorists like bees to honey.  And that will revitalize the corridor and bring more visitors to Spartanburg.

[Spartan]

I completely agree with everything you just said, except that I think in order to fix the interchange geometry, it will take more than some quick fixes.

[travey]

Spartan, on Feb 18 2009, 05:59 PM, said:

I completely agree with everything you just said, except that I think in order to fix the interchange geometry, it will take more than some quick fixes.

Hell , When I 'm coming home from Gaffney or charlotte... I get confused as to which is which.....  Bring the money back to the BURG!!!!!!

[roads-scholar]

Spartan, on Feb 18 2009, 05:59 PM, said:

I completely agree with everything you just said, except that I think in order to fix the interchange geometry, it will take more than some quick fixes.

Agreed.  No quick fixes but...improving the geometry and flow of the I-585 / Hearon Circle interchange would be the #1 priority followed by fixing the awful mess that is the Boiling Springs Road exit.

[Ezekiel]

Hopefully the vacancies and in some cases demolitions along this corridor might facilitate interchange upgrades.  The old Budget Inn at Fairforest Rd. has been torn down, I believe the Howard Johnson's and much around it is vacant, Mrs. Smith's is idle, etc.

One thing I find interesting is that the bridge where New Cut Rd. passes over new 85 (although there's no freeway access there) is 4 lanes wide whereas New Cut itself is only 2 lanes wide.  I wonder if they were planning ahead or if federal code simply requires that all new Interstate overpasses be a minimum of 4 lanes.

[roads-scholar]

Ezekiel, on Feb 19 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

Hopefully the vacancies and in some cases demolitions along this corridor might facilitate interchange upgrades.  The old Budget Inn at Fairforest Rd. has been torn down, I believe the Howard Johnson's and much around it is vacant, Mrs. Smith's is idle, etc.

One thing I find interesting is that the bridge where New Cut Rd. passes over new 85 (although there's no freeway access there) is 4 lanes wide whereas New Cut itself is only 2 lanes wide.  I wonder if they were planning ahead or if federal code simply requires that all new Interstate overpasses be a minimum of 4 lanes.

Funny, I've never noticed that overpass.  I think it's because, when I merge onto I-85 northbound from westbound I-26 (which I often do), it's so close to the interchange I completely miss it.  

The Howard Johnson's has been sitting vacant now for a number of years.  It's a real eyesore.  As is the Sun & Sand on 221, and a couple of other motels at highway 9.  The Budget Inn at Fairforest Road met the wrecking ball and few years back and the aging Tower Motel burned to the ground.

[Spartan]

SCDOT actually does a good job of planning for future expansions with bridges. Its worth it to go ahead and make abridge ready for 4 lanes of traffic even if plans for widening are not anywhere close to being on the horizon.

[Ezekiel]

One of the posts from a few years ago mentioned plans to make the US 176/new I-85 interchange 'high-speed.'  May I ask, is this what is there now, in 2009?  Or are further upgrades like circular ramps planned?

[roads-scholar]

Ezekiel, on Feb 19 2009, 10:49 PM, said:

One of the posts from a few years ago mentioned plans to make the US 176/new I-85 interchange 'high-speed.'  May I ask, is this what is there now, in 2009?  Or are further upgrades like circular ramps planned?

Manned flight to Uranus will occur before this project is accomplished!  Meanwhile, I-585 remains "orphaned" from I-85.

[Spartan]

True, though 585 is technically closer to 85 since the upgraded it to Fairforest Rd. That interchange is probably not a major priority right now. It functions fine as it is, and I would argue that there are more pressing transportation needs in Spartanburg.

[Ezekiel]

Maybe the bridges over Business 85 at Fairforest, New Cut, and Hwy 9 could be retained but the ramps made more circular?  Some of them are as sharp as U-turns right now.  I would think they are particularly awkward for big trucks.

[Spartan]

As I understand it, the main problem with business 85 is that it was not originally design as an interstate. It was going to be a new high speed, high capacity route for Highway 29... but this was before they had interstates and standards that regulated them. Roads-scholar can probably elaborate more on that one.

The interchanges in all cases have one major flaw- the frontage roads. The only way to get the interchanges to function better, IMO, is to remove or relocate the frontage roads so that you can install the correct geometry for the merging lanes.

[Sparkleman]

Boy, this is some deep stuff...

[roads-scholar]

Spartan, on Feb 20 2009, 02:07 PM, said:

As I understand it, the main problem with business 85 is that it was not originally design as an interstate. It was going to be a new high speed, high capacity route for Highway 29... but this was before they had interstates and standards that regulated them. Roads-scholar can probably elaborate more on that one.

The interchanges in all cases have one major flaw- the frontage roads. The only way to get the interchanges to function better, IMO, is to remove or relocate the frontage roads so that you can install the correct geometry for the merging lanes.

Before Business 85 it was I-85.  Before it was I-85 it was originally a two-lane US-29 constructed in 1953 to bypass the old US-29 that ran through Spartanburg, Cowpens, Gaffney, and Blacksburg.  This highway ran from what is now SC-129 in Lyman all the way to the North Carolina state line near Grover.  This route was chosen for the new Interstate 85 in 1957.  In those days high-speed acceleration and deceleration lanes were not a requirement for interstates. Also, frontage or service roads were common for freeways then (today, they're only found in Texas).  This is why the geometry of Business 85's interchanges are mostly inadequate for today's traffic and speeds.  Compare the interchanges on the "new" I-85 with those on Business 85 and you will see what I'm referring to.

Edited by roads-scholar, 20 February 2009 - 04:09 PM.

[Ezekiel]

I'm sure this is a longshot, but I wonder whether the presence of the DMV office on Fairforest just off 85 Business Loop might help in obtaining funding for an upgrade of at least that interchange.  Stranger things have happened with road construction in this state.

[Spartan]

I'm not sure I follow your logic here.