218 replies to this topic

[bobliocatt]

Urban_Legend, on May 16 2005, 06:29 AM, said:

^That looks really suburban!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is suburban.  Hopefully the Marriott deal will finally work out and some decent infill will occur at the site.

[Florida]

stjoe, on May 27 2005, 12:17 PM, said:

I would like to see the PAC as a joint project with FSU at the Civic Center.  It is important that if you spend $170 Million on something like this you get regular use out of it, which is more likely with FSU's art programs involved.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd like to see more than FSU involved in this joint venture. It seems, especially since the Civic Center is virtually decorated in FSU decor now that we are pushing aside the community for FSU, thats not the way things are usually done in Tallahassee. I'd like to see city, county, state, school board, universities all in on the act, especailly if this center is going to be state of the art. The Tallahassee Boys Choir and the Tallahassee Symphony Orchestra have already talked of making this center home, having it solely an FSU-Civic Center venture may continue that push against the rest of the community that I'm sure no one would like.

[stjoe]

I never said push aside the community...not sure where you got that from.  I specifically said "joint" project.


The best setup I heard about was basically one building with two performance areas.  One where FSU uses and the other the community.  Same property, shared expenses, but both make use of it.

Neither FSU or the COT can afford the $170 Million alone.  Frankly if either of them do this alone....I disapprove.  Especially as a taxpayer of Leon County.  The city has much bigger issues than droping that much coin on a PAC.


I think this project will bomb no matter what..they really already have.  FSU returned MILLIONS in donations for it because they couldn't get it going on time with the city.  So this probably eliminates FSU from it all.

[Florida]

stjoe, on May 27 2005, 12:50 PM, said:

I never said push aside the community...not sure where you got that from.  I specifically said "joint" project.
The best setup I heard about was basically one building with two performance areas.  One where FSU uses and the other the community.  Same property, shared expenses, but both make use of it.

Neither FSU or the COT can afford the $170 Million alone.  Frankly if either of them do this alone....I disapprove.  Especially as a taxpayer of Leon County.  The city has much bigger issues than droping that much coin on a PAC.
I think this project will bomb no matter what..they really already have.  FSU returned MILLIONS in donations for it because they couldn't get it going on time with the city.  So this probably eliminates FSU from it all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Im not sure what you're referring to regarding FSU returning donations recieved. And again, the Civic Center Properties do not belong to FSU and therefore FSU should not be given so much of its own space on that plaza unless they intend to purchase it from the community for university use (which I doubt). There is a campus (FAMU) just across the tracks growing ever weary that this city is too FSU and less supportive of them.

[stjoe]

TaureanJ, on May 27 2005, 12:59 PM, said:

Im not sure what you're referring to regarding FSU returning donations recieved. And again, the Civic Center Properties do not belong to FSU and therefore FSU should not be given so much of its own space on that plaza unless they intend to purchase it from the community for university use (which I doubt). There is a campus (FAMU) just across the tracks growing ever weary that this city is too FSU and less supportive of them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

FSU received millions in donations that were lost due to not making enough progress on a PAC for FSU.

Where did I say the Civic Center belonged to FSU?  Or that FSU should be given anything?  I said "joint"...which implies "joint" payment and "joint" sharing of space.  You are making huge leaps here...and not off of what I am saying.

What does FAMU have to do with it?  They haven't indicated they want a joint PAC...if they did...great, the COT needs to break up the cost.  But if they don't...why should they be a part of it?  You pay for it...you own a piece of it.  Thus "joint".

The COT simply cannot afford to spend over $100 million on a PAC.  They need to find other means of find money for this.  If they do not, it is just one huge political turkey which as a taxpayer I find offense.  They can't afford this.

[Florida]

stjoe, on May 27 2005, 01:07 PM, said:

FSU received millions in donations that were lost due to not making enough progress on a PAC for FSU.

Where did I say the Civic Center belonged to FSU?  Or that FSU should be given anything?  I said "joint"...which implies "joint" payment and "joint" sharing of space.  You are making huge leaps here...and not off of what I am saying.

What does FAMU have to do with it?  They haven't indicated they want a joint PAC...if they did...great, the COT needs to break up the cost.  But if they don't...why should they be a part of it?  You pay for it...you own a piece of it.  Thus "joint".

The COT simply cannot afford to spend over $100 million on a PAC.  They need to find other means of find money for this.  If they do not, it is just one huge political turkey which as a taxpayer I find offense.  They can't afford this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

^Please pardon me if I made it seem as if you said the civic center belongs to FSU. I merely don't like the thought of FSU being so tightly jointed with the civic center if they have no plans to own it. Tallahassee has several parties interested in the center's useage, namely FAMU. As an FSU student myself it doesn't bother me to see FSU step up its involvement with the civic center, but as a Tallahassean I realize this is our only civic center, and we've got several institutions vying for it.

The performing arts center will be funded in large part by a new bed tax recently created here in Leon county. Additionally money from the downtown CRA, and federal grants for the arts will be sought to lighten the load. See www.onwiththeshow.com for more details on who wants to partner in this venture.

[stjoe]

" I merely don't like the thought of FSU being so tightly jointed with the civic center if they have no plans to own it. Tallahassee has several parties interested in the center's useage, namely FAMU. As an FSU student myself it doesn't bother me to see FSU step up its involvement with the civic center, but as a Tallahassean I realize this is our only civic center, and we've got several institutions vying for it."


I can see this different ways, but overall I differ from you on this here is why.

The last usage percentage I have seen showed that FSU used the civic center 80% of the time.  Now there are two ways of looking at it.  

From how you write, you make it seem like FSU is keeping someone else from using it.  That isn't the case.  The civic center NEEDS more folks using it.  It isn't a case of FSU taking usage time from someone else.  It is a case of the Civic Center has to pay the bills and they are lucky enough that FSU is using it and thus they can pay there mortage.  Otherwise...the Civic Center goes in the red and the COT is screwed.  FYI, the LCCC is one of the few civic centers in the state in the black.

So FSU uses the center 80% of the time, but only had about 20% of the committee vote until recently.  

Now you can argue this different ways, but let me point out something similar...Innovation Park (IP).  IP was started with a gift of 208 acres from FSU to the COT, with the stated mission of stimulation research in the area.  Since, FSU pays $1.5 Million a year for rent in buildings they built on land they gave away, IP board has not done SQUAT in that area, and FSU only has as many votes as FAMU on the board and less than the COT.  The board has abandoned it's mission of stimulating research and mearly collects rent off of land given to it from FSU.  

The Civic Center is for the community.  But with FSU using it 80% of the time....it IS the community...the center needs to be mainly suited for it's needs because it is the one using.  You don't spend 50% of your resources on someone using it 1% of the time.

IP is an example of how sharing regardless of common sense has blown up in the cities face.  You have to bring reality into the equation.

[Florida]

You make a strong point and from where you see this I can understand what you mean. I just hope we don't loose focus here in Tallahassee that we are made of many ingredients and not just one. Could it be FSU is 80% usage of the Civic Center because the center itself is rarely used outside of FSU Men's and Women's Basketball games, the occasional tradeshow, concert, play, and sometime graduations. Im sure looking back to the 1990s that figure would be drastically different as the Civic Center was in use by the Tigersharks, and the Tallahassee Thunder for their events as well. I do commend FSU on paying off the Civic Center's debt last year which allows us to now boast of being in the positive.

As far as IP is concerned, I'd support the idea of University Park if it were back on the drawing boards and leaders were serious about implementation as you have many times pointed out. I truly wait for the day when we can say our 2 major industries (education and government) have spun off into several, I believe we truly have that potential.

[stjoe]

TaureanJ, on May 27 2005, 09:13 PM, said:

You make a strong point and from where you see this I can understand what you mean. I just hope we don't loose focus here in Tallahassee that we are made of many ingredients and not just one. Could it be FSU is 80% usage of the Civic Center because the center itself is rarely used outside of FSU Men's and Women's Basketball games, the occasional tradeshow, concert, play, and sometime graduations. Im sure looking back to the 1990s that figure would be drastically different as the Civic Center was in use by the Tigersharks, and the Tallahassee Thunder for their events as well. I do commend FSU on paying off the Civic Center's debt last year which allows us to now boast of being in the positive.

As far as IP is concerned, I'd support the idea of University Park if it were back on the drawing boards and leaders were serious about implementation as you have many times pointed out. I truly wait for the day when we can say our 2 major industries (education and government) have spun off into several, I believe we truly have that potential.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whatever the usage...it is the only kind the Civic Center can sell.  FAMU doens't use it much (cost too much money), Tigersharks went out of business.  The TLCCC is stuck with FSU as their client 80% of the time.  They are and should be grateful, and FSU is grateful to have the TLCCC.  It is a mutual relationship.

FYI, FSU has not paid off the debt.  But FSU did sink $25 Million into the TLCCC in the last major renovations.  Which is another reason I think FSU has an argument for itself.  

The issue with IP is nobody in town knows one thing about research except for FAMU and FSU.  And FAMU is not considered a success in research, the have 1/3 the research money that FSU has and about 1/100000 the research revenue of FSU.  But the players at IP would rather be in a power with something that fails than to have FSU running the show with something sucessful.  It is a shame.

[stjoe]

TaureanJ,
Just wanted to say, you post some great info on this board....good job.

[Urban_Legend]

^I agree, he's already up to 350 posts, and all of them are relevant!

[Florida]

stjoe, on May 28 2005, 07:31 AM, said:

Whatever the usage...it is the only kind the Civic Center can sell.  FAMU doens't use it much (cost too much money), Tigersharks went out of business.  The TLCCC is stuck with FSU as their client 80% of the time.  They are and should be grateful, and FSU is grateful to have the TLCCC.  It is a mutual relationship.

FYI, FSU has not paid off the debt.  But FSU did sink $25 Million into the TLCCC in the last major renovations.  Which is another reason I think FSU has an argument for itself. 

The issue with IP is nobody in town knows one thing about research except for FAMU and FSU.  And FAMU is not considered a success in research, the have 1/3 the research money that FSU has and about 1/100000 the research revenue of FSU.  But the players at IP would rather be in a power with something that fails than to have FSU running the show with something sucessful.  It is a shame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

as part of the agreement with the Civic Center Authority, in exchange for more seats on the board, FSU did pay off the debt of the civic center.

btw... thanks for the kind words! I can't say how much UP means to me now.

Edited by TaureanJ, 28 May 2005 - 09:12 PM.

[bobliocatt]

stjoe, on May 28 2005, 05:33 AM, said:

TaureanJ,
Just wanted to say, you post some great info on this board....good job.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes....I know we have our disagreements sometimes, but you are doing a great job of keeping us informed of whats going on in the Capitol City.  Keep up the good work.

[Florida]

^ SpankYou! That means alot coming from you Lakelander... buddy!

[stjoe]

TaureanJ, on May 28 2005, 11:11 PM, said:

as part of the agreement with the Civic Center Authority, in exchange for more seats on the board, FSU did pay off the debt of the civic center.

btw... thanks for the kind words! I can't say how much UP means to me now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read this...

http://www.tallahass...cal/8961086.htm


"Florida State University got the Civic Center board but not the debt.

Under a bill signed Thursday by Gov. Jeb Bush, FSU gets majority representation on the Tallahassee-Leon County Civic Center Authority. But FSU isn't taking over $18 million in Civic Center debt as some Leon County commissioners say they were promised."

"John Carnaghi, FSU's senior vice president for finance and administration, said the university didn't promise to take over the debt.

"That is absolutely, positively wrong," he said. FSU agreed to take over the city and county's joint responsibility of up to $250,000 a year for future operating losses, Carnaghi said."

"Commissioner Tony Grippa said he didn't recall FSU promising to take over the debt.

"What they agreed to do is release the city and county taxpayers of any future responsibility" for operating losses, he said.

Regardless of the disagreement, Carnaghi said the public should see no difference in how the Civic Center is operated.

"It is not an FSU facility," he said. "It will still be the Tallahassee-Leon County Civic Center Authority board."

[Florida]

I had not realize FSU backed out of the original deal, the one I and Im sure the local commissioners supported when they voted to authorize their support. But I do think it important to note... as said right above...

"It is not an FSU facility," Grippa said. "It will still be the Tallahassee-Leon County Civic Center..."

[stjoe]

TaureanJ, on May 31 2005, 12:07 AM, said:

I had not realize FSU backed out of the original deal, the one I and Im sure the local commissioners supported when they voted to authorize their support. But I do think it important to note... as said right above...

"It is not an FSU facility," Grippa said. "It will still be the Tallahassee-Leon County Civic Center..."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Taurean,
You make a MAJOR assumptions with your quote.  You assume that FSU made a deal to pay off the debt.  As the article noted (and a commissioner even said), whether that was the agreement or not is debatable.  Yet you assume FSU is wrong here.

[Florida]

I don't like to assume... but I think it is only responsible that the notion that they would pay off the debt as the article described be cleared up before any agreement is inked. I'll call it misleading.

[stjoe]

TaureanJ, on May 31 2005, 01:04 PM, said:

I don't like to assume... but I think it is only responsible that the notion that they would pay off the debt as the article described be cleared up before any agreement is inked. I'll call it misleading.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You assume FSU mislead.  Perhaps the COT just misunderstood.  You have two commissioners with the opposite opinion of the agreement, perhaps the ones not happy didn't read the material...or are not smart.  Not FSU's job to hand hold.  To assume either way is wrong.

[Florida]

Well I assume the Leon County Commission, the Associated Press, the Democrat® Staff Writer, WCTV6, and WTXL all misunderstood, as that deal was a major draw of attention. Now I see why they have to take a step backwards with the financing of the parking garage which now has the Hotel hanging in limbo. With the debt paid off the civic center authority was talking about how its ability to finance the parking garage would be much better and therefore get this project underway.