259 replies to this topic

[Cotuit]

Garris, on May 14 2005, 10:18 AM, said:

I've never quite understood this argument.  I thought the whole point of using property taxes was that:
1 - Each community funds its own schools
2 - Essentially everyone contributes

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, how does one define community? How about all of us without children form our own town so we can by-pass the expense of education, afterall, our "community" would be childless. Of course regardless of the fact that I don't have kids, I understand the need for quality education. If only because I don't want some functionally illiterate dolt dispensing my meds when I'm old and in a home.

[Frankie811]

http://www.projo.com...5x.1ce7ef3.html

[Frankie811]

Frankie811, on May 16 2005, 08:32 AM, said:

http://www.projo.com...5x.1ce7ef3.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just found out that Capital Cove LLC received a tax stabilization plan in Nov.

[Liamlunchtray]

gregw, on May 14 2005, 01:51 PM, said:

There are so many abandoned stores in part because Walmart has been opening a lot of supercenters with gas and groceries in addition to all the usual stuff. These supercenters have much bigger footprints. Apparently Walmart finds it more cost effective to abandon the old store and build new than to add to the existing store.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Also, If they continue to pay rent on the old location rather than terminating the lease, it keeps another bigbox discount retailer from moving into the building.

I wonder if we will see this in Cranston after they build the new Walmart up behind the Home Depot on Hartford Ave.

Liam

[Lova]

They should build little mixed use neighborhoods on the old Wallmart locations, or donate the land to nature conservancies and let it grow wild.

They're about 100 acres each, no?

[Lova]

Quotes and comments on a great NYT.com article:

Class in America: Shadowy Lines That Still Divide

By JANNY SCOTT and DAVID LEONHARDT
Published: May 15, 2005

"...A paradox lies at the heart of this new American meritocracy. Merit has replaced the old system of inherited privilege, in which parents to the manner born handed down the manor to their children. But merit, it turns out, is at least partly class-based. Parents with money, education and connections cultivate in their children the habits that the meritocracy rewards....."

"...Class plays an increased role, too, in determining where and with whom affluent Americans live. More than in the past, they tend to live apart from everyone else, cocooned in their exurban chateaus. Researchers who have studied data from the 1980, 1990 and 2000 censuses say the isolation of the affluent has increased....."
-----------------------------------------

This is what I refer to as culture: not various aesthetic styles and religious ceremonies, but behaviour patterns that generate success in the modern world. They can be taught, if not at home, then at school. However, if a school can't meet basic education standards in fundamental knowlege, it's unlikely to endow students with the transcendent lesson of education: how to learn. Wealthy (in the broadest sense) parents impart expectations upon their kids, send them to schools that support those standards, and reap the rewards of successful children. Poor parents sending their kids through a school system that has low expectations OF ITSELF are trying to push a pile of rocks uphill. If there is one single thing that the state should offer it's citizens, it's the knowledge of how to succeed in it. People have to know a basic skill set, most profoundly how to learn and the tremendous leverage of discipline.

Also, the Great Wall of RT 95 rends Providence in half. Some years ago it was written that rich folks live on Power. Now they may live on the East Side or DownCity, but still nowhere else. I think that if 95 didnt cut roads off and create a nearly impenetrable barrier, economic development would be much more evenly spread around. Smith Hill, South and West Prov would never have fallen like they did. Poor Olneyville is behind 3 highways. This disaster killed 3/4 of the city.

I think that in recompense, the State should grant these areas with giant incentives for business development. I know there is something like this in place now, but I read nothing of it's effectiveness and see little new econ activity.

[Garris]

Interesting post Lova...

Lova, on May 17 2005, 09:17 PM, said:

"Merit has replaced the old system of inherited privilege, in which parents to the manner born handed down the manor to their children. But merit, it turns out, is at least partly (Garris - italics are mine) class-based. Parents with money, education and connections cultivate in their children the habits that the meritocracy rewards....."

Note my emphasis on the word partially...  This gets to the point made earlier about culture, to a certain extent.  At Yale, I knew tons of people who came from families, be they poor, immigrant, broken, etc, etc, etc who had neither money, education, or connections, but they had a inkling of talent backed up by tremendous work ethics.  

Frankly, in our society, the goals and what one needs to do to get there are fairly plain...  In my opinion, actually, it's very hard not to attain an average, "mainstream" level of economic and social comfort in our society.  You've got to do something fairly drastic to sabatoge your own prospects.  I knew tons of kids in high school who could barely tie their own shoes and I thought would be more likely to be found in a gutter one day than in a suburb who somehow got into some college, then somehow managed to hold down some jobs, etc. who now have the stereotypical American 3 bedroom house with 2 cars, 2 kids, and a dog.  It requires commitment to a basic level of education and a basic level of work and the value of importance to that.  

Many immigrants I know feel that it's almost too easy to be comfortable in America.  One of the things they attribute stereotypically high immigrant work ethics to is the experience of haves and have nots in their own countries, without a middle ground.  If you didn't work hard, you didn't survive, period.  There was no "C+ just getting by" and still being able to feed yourself.  The idea you could apply yourself less than 100% and still be able to live well is a foreign idea to them...

While betraying my liberal ideals somewhat, I think that the recent fight in the African American community against the idea of academic achievement as "being White" that Bill Cosby and, much earlier, Clarance Paige started is overdue.  Talk about culturally shooting yourself in the foot...

Lova, on May 17 2005, 09:17 PM, said:

However, if a school can't meet basic education standards in fundamental knowlege, it's unlikely to endow students with the transcendent lesson of education: how to learn. Wealthy (in the broadest sense) parents impart expectations upon their kids, send them to schools that support those standards, and reap the rewards of successful children. Poor parents sending their kids through a school system that has low expectations OF ITSELF are trying to push a pile of rocks uphill. If there is one single thing that the state should offer it's citizens, it's the knowledge of how to succeed in it. People have to know a basic skill set, most profoundly how to learn and the tremendous leverage of discipline.

Agreed 100%.  Nicely put.  This is an American, not just inner city, school problem, however.  There are many who believe the entire American secondary school system is in part intentionally and in part unintentionally designed to produce mediocrity...

Lova, on May 17 2005, 09:17 PM, said:

Also, the Great Wall of RT 95 rends Providence in half. Some years ago it was written that rich folks live on Power. Now they may live on the East Side or DownCity, but still nowhere else. I think that if 95 didnt cut roads off and create a nearly impenetrable barrier, economic development would be much more evenly spread around. Smith Hill, South and West Prov would never have fallen like they did. Poor Olneyville is behind 3 highways. This disaster killed 3/4 of the city.

Very good point, and probably very correct.  There is hope, though.  Look at how the West End and Armory are coming back.  Areas like Smith Hill (which really needs to get its collective act together) are bordered by a burgeoning downtown and an already quite nice suburb to the North and NW.  In-fill and improvement is possible.  I'm really of the opinion that, short of magically eliminating 95, a successful downtown and future improved links with the rest of the city will float the boat for everyone.

Lova, on May 17 2005, 09:17 PM, said:

I think that in recompense, the State should grant these areas with giant incentives for business development. I know there is something like this in place now, but I read nothing of it's effectiveness and see little new econ activity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A Marshall Plan for the neighborhoods?  Not a bad idea, but currently very unlikely unless an economic miracle occurs.   I'd also like a pony...

- Garris

[Frankie811]

Garris, on May 18 2005, 12:36 AM, said:

Interesting post Lova...
Note my emphasis on the word partially...  This gets to the point made earlier about culture, to a certain extent.  At Yale, I knew tons of people who came from families, be they poor, immigrant, broken, etc, etc, etc who had neither money, education, or connections, but they had a inkling of talent backed up by tremendous work ethics. 

Frankly, in our society, the goals and what one needs to do to get there are fairly plain...  In my opinion, actually, it's very hard not to attain an average, "mainstream" level of economic and social comfort in our society.  You've got to do something fairly drastic to sabatoge your own prospects.  I knew tons of kids in high school who could barely tie their own shoes and I thought would be more likely to be found in a gutter one day than in a suburb who somehow got into some college, then somehow managed to hold down some jobs, etc. who now have the stereotypical American 3 bedroom house with 2 cars, 2 kids, and a dog.  It requires commitment to a basic level of education and a basic level of work and the value of importance to that. 

Many immigrants I know feel that it's almost too easy to be comfortable in America.  One of the things they attribute stereotypically high immigrant work ethics to is the experience of haves and have nots in their own countries, without a middle ground.  If you didn't work hard, you didn't survive, period.  There was no "C+ just getting by" and still being able to feed yourself.  The idea you could apply yourself less than 100% and still be able to live well is a foreign idea to them...

While betraying my liberal ideals somewhat, I think that the recent fight in the African American community against the idea of academic achievement as "being White" that Bill Cosby and, much earlier, Clarance Paige started is overdue.  Talk about culturally shooting yourself in the foot...
Agreed 100%.  Nicely put.  This is an American, not just inner city, school problem, however.  There are many who believe the entire American secondary school system is in part intentionally and in part unintentionally designed to produce mediocrity...
Very good point, and probably very correct.  There is hope, though.  Look at how the West End and Armory are coming back.  Areas like Smith Hill (which really needs to get its collective act together) are bordered by a burgeoning downtown and an already quite nice suburb to the North and NW.  In-fill and improvement is possible.  I'm really of the opinion that, short of magically eliminating 95, a successful downtown and future improved links with the rest of the city will float the boat for everyone.
A Marshall Plan for the neighborhoods?  Not a bad idea, but currently very unlikely unless an economic miracle occurs.   I'd also like a pony...

- Garris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

http://www.pbn.com/c...s.php/id/114878

[Recchia]

http://www.projo.com...0x.1ccb37f.html
Growth in R.I., Mass. house prices expected to taper off through 2009

[TheAnk]

I have a question for you all here.. Is it the schools in Prov that are bad, or the students?

If we pay so much per student, why aren't these students achieving?

It is my opinion that if a student body is comprised of mostly poor students, the top tier students flee to better school systems, like private schooling, further dropping the standard..

And no amount of money thrown to the system is going to change that.. Change the kids' mentailty towards school, not the amount of tax dollars you spend on them..

[Cotuit]

TheAnk, on May 26 2005, 10:18 AM, said:

And no amount of money thrown to the system is going to change that..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Simply throwing money at the problem is part of the problem. Our public school system in America assumes that every child comes from an Ozzy & Harriet family, when the reality is that no child ever came from that family. We bemoan the fact that parents are not involved in their children's educations, but we have an economic and social system in this country that demands that both parents work. We need to be structuring our education system for the way families are structured today, and we need to be open to the realities of who our children are. Our children have intense demands placed on them both socially and academically, but we continue to have an attitude towards children that they are 'just kids' and their problems and challenges are superficial. We need to strike a balance of protecting our kids, but also giving them the autonomy to deal with the issues that are presented to them. We treat our teens like children, and then get angry at them when they act like children.

There's issues like scheduling, study after study has shown that teenagers cannot perform mentally in the early morning hours, that they do indeed need 10 hours of sleep, that they are not lazy, they are exhausted. Yet we continue to force kids into math and science classes at 7:00am, they just can't perform at this time. We set them up to fail.

[TheAnk]

Cotuit, on May 26 2005, 09:35 AM, said:

Our public school system in America assumes that every child comes from an Ozzy & Harriet family, when the reality is that no child ever came from that family.

We need to be structuring our education system for the way families are structured today, and we need to be open to the realities of who our children are.

Yet we continue to force kids into math and science classes at 7:00am, they just can't perform at this time. We set them up to fail.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, absolutely no fault at all on the students.. Its not their fault..  Its everyone elses fault but theirs.. No offense, but I just don't suscribe to that theory.. Kids nowadays have it no different from the last generation or the one before them.. There were always family problems, just people weren't so open about it.. If anything, I'd say they have it better, as there is more of an open understanding of family strife..

The real world operates in the AM.. I hate to break it to the teenagers.. I hated getting up in the AM too.. I still do.. My alarm is the bane of my existence.. But just like the rest of the world, I get up and do the job.. If having class @ 7AM is setting them up to fail, then they have a long life of failure ahead of them..

People are responsible for their actions. This includes students.. I feel that we live in a time right now where blame is passed on to everyone but themselves.. If I failed math in the 10th grade, and I told my parents/teachers that it was cause it is @ 7AM, they would laugh in my face.. Try getting up @ 5AM my plumber father would say..

[Cotuit]

No everyone is to blame, but it seems that the blame is only ever placed on the students.

TheAnk, on May 26 2005, 11:26 AM, said:

The real world operates in the AM.. I hate to break it to the teenagers.. I hated getting up in the AM too.. I still do.. My alarm is the bane of my existence.. But just like the rest of the world, I get up and do the job.. If having class @ 7AM is setting them up to fail, then they have a long life of failure ahead of them..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, it's a scientific truth that teens cannot perform complicated mental procedures at 7am. If your plumber father does not want to get up at 5am, he is free to get a new job, teens have no choice but to suck it up and fail.

[Philanthroplan]

Cotuit, on May 26 2005, 09:33 AM, said:

No everyone is to blame, but it seems that the blame is only ever placed on the students.
Sorry, it's a scientific truth that teens cannot perform complicated mental procedures at 7am. If your plumber father does not want to get up at 5am, he is free to get a new job, teens have no choice but to suck it up and fail.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My first post.... and its just after 6:00 am, so perhaps I can't be held responsible for my words  

I am a moderate living in a red state, but raised in Fall River, MA. I recognize both sides of this argument....

TheAnk is correct to assume that training and expecting students to take greater responsibility for their actions and their futures will lead to improvements in deteriorating school systems. The cultural issues referenced above in this thread are often the result of less than authentic communication - that is, an unsigned contract of responsibilty - often said "respect".

The flaw of the liberal mindset is the tendancy to explain away personal responsibilty based upon objectified, "scientific" studies. Learning is a subjective act that requires personal effort and commitment. Granted, students may be too tired at 7:00, but that doesn't mean they won't be too tired if school started at 10:00. This type of "tired" is as much a statement of the will as it is a condition of the physical constitution.

On the other hand, blaming students is futile. We are all socialized into this world, so blaming the child for her upbringing is lazy and deficient analysis.

I belive that Gates was right to say that American public schools are defunct. The model is lagging behind the times. Classrooms today are very much like they were throughout the last century. Cultures are changing along with labor markets, but the educational supply is not reacting in tune to this changing demand. The debates about education play into debates by Florida and Pink about the role of talent in the "innovation economy."

There are several good programs that are experimenting with educational models, for example KIPP, which has obtained national notoriety due to its success.
http://www.kipp.org/

I was interested to see the lengthy discussion about public primary/secondary education in the economic development thread, because it is the most basic investment in the future. But, as with the vacant Walmarts our investment horizon as a society tends to be focussed on immediate results. Some people argue that this is caused by the bounded rationality of our measurement, i.e. Walmart's real estate construction type is based on the valuation of a 10 year discounted cash flow model. Walmarts don't get built in cities because they won't construct buildings that will last 40 years, not just because of scale and parking. The argument over budgets as the savior to education is cliche and misplaced (my mom is a teacher too). Education budgets are the equivalent of short-term cash flow. They can't be our primary measure of support or success. The problem is that public education is a moneypit with a shrinking marginal return.

But, have no fear, because it won't be budgets that cause us to reorganize our educational model..... it will be the retirement of the baby-boomers, and unlike budget increases this wave is sure to hit.

philantroplan

[Philanthroplan]

I'm interested in entrepreneurship support initiatives in Providence. Any advice?

I'm looking to track down as may of the following as I can find in the area: VC and CDVC funds, technical support groups, entrepreneur networks and the like.... also any tips on policy that supports entrepreneurship in Prov/RI would be helpful.


thanks,
philathroplan

Edited by Philanthroplan, 27 May 2005 - 04:57 AM.

[Cotuit]

The students in this city are told nothing other than they are failures. This very discussion is a point in fact. The Providence school system is a failure, and by extension our kids are failures. Should it be any surprise that our children live up to this self-fullfilling prophecy?

I don't know what the actual answer is to what we are doing wrong, and what we should be doing to make it right. But look at a city like New York, their students have the same socio-economic issues that ours do, race, income, language, class... but their schools are much better and their students perform better than ours. Are Providence's children simply not as good as New York's? I doubt that's the case.

We live in a city with some of the nation's best higher education institutions, Brown, RISD, J&W... but some of the nation's worst public schools. How can this be? Part of the solution seems obvious, if our colleges are so good, and our primary schools are so bad, maybe one should help the other. The colleges could give back to the community in lieu of their exempted taxes by becoming further involved in the city's schools.

We have a problem where a minority of truely bad kids occupy the most attention of the school's staff and faculty. We have smart kids who don't need as much educating (kids who learn quick) who are able to get by on their own smarts. Then there is the vast middle-ground of kids who are being underserved. They are not smart enough to recieve the praise that the smart kids get, and they don't act out enough to get the attention that the bad kids are stealing from them. So, they can either continue to be overlooked, or they can get smart (easier said than done), or they can start acting out too.

We need better rewards systems for these kids in the middle, so that they have an option besides acting out. Budget cuts constantly are looking towards removing sports and the arts to meet the bottom line, but this is exactly the areas where these kids in the middle may excel and the one place where they recieve the positive attention that all kids need.  We need more support for programs like New Urban Arts and more athletic programs in the city. More things like the Youth Council. A positive step is the Skateboard Park just opened in the city and the mayor's goal to have a city-wide skater tournament. Give these kids positive reinforcement outside of school, and they will carry it back into school.

[TheAnk]

I just find it completely convenient nowadays to find excuses to fail. Not just in school systems, but every where..

http://204.17.79.244...les/cw_edu.html

One of the major problems I think nowadays is assimilation. Students in Prov do not speak English as their primary language..

http://204.17.79.244...nglish01per.gif

This above link was shocking to me..

Being 1/2 irish and 1/2 italian, I saw at home that not speaking english as a 1st language is debilitating.. But through the generations, the Italians spoke english and became assimilated into mainstream culture, and were able to rise up out of their societal and cultural enclaves..

The Hispanic population of today is akin to the Italians of the 40s.. I believe than the next generation of Hispanic people will speak English as their primary language, and Prov will flourish..

The number 1 initative should NOT be after school programs and other liberal programs to make Prov residents feel hopeless.. Because a "study" has shown that they will not suceed @ 7AM in Math..

When a student doesn't speak the langauge, they are at an inherent disadvantage.. Making every student fluent will be the greatest driver to success.. There are many great students being held back by this..

[Cotuit]

TheAnk, on May 27 2005, 09:57 AM, said:

I just find it completely convenient nowadays to find excuses to fail. Not just in school systems, but every where..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No one is looking for excuses to fail, we are looking for explanations on why people are failing. If we don't identify why people are failing, how can we stop them from failing?

If the "liberal" answers are wrong, what is the "conservative" answer?

[Cotuit]

TheAnk, on May 27 2005, 09:57 AM, said:

"study"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why such little faith in science? Perhaps we should just drop it since "studies" are not to be taken seriously, if our kids didn't have science, that would be one less place for them to fail.

[TheAnk]

Cotuit, on May 27 2005, 09:04 AM, said:

If the "liberal" answers are wrong, what is the "conservative" answer?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

English.. If I am the conservative, then that is the conservative answer. Speaking English fluently and assimilating to society.

I don't think anyone would argue against the fact that if someone does not speak the native language well, they are at a disadvantage.. This is true anywhere in the world..

There are plenty of bright students in Providence who carry a disability; lack of fluency in English..

http://204.17.79.244...nglish01per.gif

I don't think the picture can be made more clear than this above link...

If every student in Prov public schools were fluent in English, Prov schools would flourish.

I think that answer must be too easy.. Otherwise, it would be implemented already.. Or maybe people view that as denouncing diversity.. I don't know.. I don't see it that way... It just seems so obvious to me that Prov students are at a disadvantage..

Other than the East Side, less than 1/2 of students are English speaking.. To me, that was an amazing stat..

Thoughts?