132 replies to this topic

[Captain Obvious]

KRC, on May 19 2005, 10:09 AM, said:

Where I live, I make over $35k, in Florida I found the same job paying $19,500 with no benefits!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your house, car, gas, insurance, prices for many goods and services (not to mention personal taxes) are all probably significantly more expensive too. It's just a trade off, like most things.

For example, a real estate lawyer might make $120k in Cali, and "only" $70k in Florida. But a house in Florida might only cost a 3rd the price of a similar house in Cali, plus there's no state income tax in Florida.

[RiversideGator]

KRC:  The CEO of Fidelity, which does title insurance and other real estate servicing, cited as specific reason for relocating the poor business climate in CA as opposed to in FL.  See  http://jacksonville...._12104364.shtml

I suppose the anti-business CA state regulations (which include workers comp laws, unemployment compensation laws, higher corporate taxes, state income taxes, etc) were really intended to keep out "undesirable" companies like Fidelity.  Good move California.  The reality is the state government, which has been controlled by liberal socialists, has used California businesses as ATM machines and businesses within the US can opt to pick up and move to another state.

[KRC]

RiversideGator, on May 19 2005, 11:47 AM, said:

KRC:  The CEO of Fidelity, which does title insurance and other real estate servicing, cited as specific reason for relocating the poor business climate in CA as opposed to in FL.  See  http://jacksonville...._12104364.shtml

I suppose the anti-business CA state regulations (which include workers comp laws, unemployment compensation laws, higher corporate taxes, state income taxes, etc) were really intended to keep out "undesirable" companies like Fidelity.  Good move California.  The reality is the state government, which has been controlled by liberal socialists, has used California businesses as ATM machines and businesses within the US can opt to pick up and move to another state.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay.  I can understand your viewpoint.  But what about standards of living?  All the taxes you mention help to pick up the slack that companies won't do on their own.  When you are layed-off, do you really think the company that let you go will generously keep paying you until you can find another job?  Well, we both know the answer to that is no.  The free market is greeeeeeedy.  I should know.  I made it work for me and I'm now financially comfortable and I'm only 36.  It doesn't care about being a good citizen.  That's what government is for.  And honestly, do you really for one second believe that "liberal socialist" are the only ones feeding at the trough?  As we see now with the never ending drama that is Tom DeLay, it would appear not.  Speaking of nightmares, aren't you glad you not him?

[prahaboheme]

OH WOW, one company pulls out of the sixth largest global economy.  Those Democrats must be doing something wrong!!

[RiversideGator]

Read Adam Smith, The Wealth Of Nations.  The "invisible hand" of the market causes society, in the aggregate, to advance through the actions of many individuals acting in their own best interests.  Everyone works so that they can pay for things.  If this is greed, so what.  Capitalism is the best system ever devised.  This is the bottom line.

[KRC]

RiversideGator, on May 19 2005, 12:41 PM, said:

Read Adam Smith, The Wealth Of Nations.  The "invisible hand" of the market causes society, in the aggregate, to advance through the actions of many individuals acting in their own best interests.  Everyone works so that they can pay for things.  If this is greed, so what.  Capitalism is the best system ever devised.  This is the bottom line.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, but not everyone is qualified (for a mirade of reasons) to play by those rules.  You can't just throw them aside.  Also, I'm familar with Mr. Smith and I find his arguments to be valid, but one sidely simplistic.  He only looks at issues for the "get the buck" viewpoint and the instinct of survival mode.  Again, valid, but in my view not the whole story.  Being a good neighbor is not a bad thing no matter what anybody says.  I'm not so dumb as to think there aren't leaches among us, but it's not the norm.  Capitalism is good system, but not the best.  Don't forget greed is a sin.

[Aessotariq]

It's also worth mentioning that the classical school of thought and the laissez faire-style capitalism favored at the time were very instrumental in setting into motion the events that led to the Great Depression. The only society I can think of that has pulled off anything like this successfully is Hong Kong.

[Dale]

Just did a google search on 'causes of great depression'. Apparently the answer depends on one's political leanings.

[KRC]

Dale, on May 19 2005, 02:47 PM, said:

Just did a google search on 'causes of great depression'. Apparently the answer depends on one's political leanings.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was over production, too much faith in laissez-fair approach to business and lack of social safety nets for just such emergencies.  Those three issue have been dealt with one way or another over the years.  We've had similar downward spirals since that time and the Great Depression hasn't re-occurred to that extreme since.  Even 9/11 couldn't do it.  It's not perfect, but it works from time to time.

[RiversideGator]

Actually, among competent economists, the consensus is the Great Depression was caused initially by the regular decline phase of the business cycle.  This was then greatly exacerbated by the actions of many governments, including the US, in raising trade barriers (see Smoot-Hawley tariff).  Further, Roosevelt's actions (increased regulations, burdens on business, etc.) actually prolonged the depression and we only really got out of the Depression after WWII.

Y'all should read anything by Joseph Shumpeter, such as the Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy.  See http://transcription...schumpeter.html  Essentially, downturns in the economy are normal parts of the creative process, which he labels "creative destruction" and they bring on further innovation and advancement as inefficient companies go under to be replaced by lean, new companies with better ideas/products.

As to the least among us, I believe there should be a safety net for those truly unable to fend for themselves (due to illness or old age for example).  I am a Christian too and I know that the love of money is a sin, but simply making money is not.  You must distinguish between the two.

Edited by RiversideGator, 19 May 2005 - 02:03 PM.

[Florida]

.... so what does any of this have to do with how the next Governor of the State will affect our growth?

[KRC]

TaureanJ, on May 19 2005, 06:54 PM, said:

.... so what does any of this have to do with how the next Governor of the State will affect our growth?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lots really.  A governor sets the tone of economic development.  Chosing the right person with the right ideas can be and is crutial to a state's economic future.  Make the wrong choices and it will take years to correct.  I think Mr. Bush has done a great job in Florida....for outsiders.  The state is practically an open door for retirees and blood from outside the region.  However, what exactly about the quality of life for lifelong Floridians.  On that topic, you really don't hear to many natives singing his praises.  HOWEVER, as someone who bought a vacation property within the last two years in Florida, he did me some great favors.  Problem is, I only live there 4, perhaps 5, weeks out of the year.  Nonetheless, I don't pay nearly my fair share in local or state taxes, you do that for me.  Thanks guys!

[Dale]

Can't vouch for Jeb's second term, but the Cato Institute gave Jeb its highest commendations, for fiscal management, his first term.

[Florida]

It has long seemed as if Jeb has had it out to get Tallahassee. First it was cutting the over 5000 state jobs, then it was slashing funding for some of our road projects and the universities. Although those things had an adverse affect on our growth, it was only temporary. Tallahassee was able to offset the loss of those jobs, with the creation of private companies that assumed the roles of the slashed state departments. I still contend the citizens of FL are best served by a non-profit state agency than a corporate money maker, but to each his own.

[Dale]

TaureanJ, on May 21 2005, 11:04 AM, said:

It has long seemed as if Jeb has had it out to get Tallahassee. First it was cutting the over 5000 state jobs, then it was slashing funding for some of our road projects and the universities. Although those things had an adverse affect on our growth, it was only temporary. Tallahassee was able to offset the loss of those jobs, with the creation of private companies that assumed the roles of the slashed state departments. I still contend the citizens of FL are best served by a non-profit state agency than a corporate money maker, but to each his own.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

jeb out to get Tally ? Well, that'll teach Leon County to vote Democrat !  

[Florida]

^No comment.

[RiversideGator]

Jeb out to get Tallahassee?  He was trying to cut back the bureaucrary (by firing 5000 workers), not hurt the city.  I think the job cuts are a good thing, especially considering that they must have been completely unnecessary positions because their absence has not been felt at all.  The taxpayers of the State of Florida dont want to subsidize Tally.  I suggest you look to private enterprise for future growth.

[Florida]

Jeb out to get Tallahassee?! Absolutely! He wasn't trying to cut back on spending... if that was the case he wouldn't have hired for-profit companies to do the same jobs the state agencies have done for years. The reason you didn't feel the cut backs was because the work was outsourced to companies from other states (namely Ohio). Kinda like what Wal-Mart does when it imports its products from China instead of sell American. The tax payers of the state of Florida should be less concerned about subsidizing Tallahassee (its Capital City, btw Government isn't free) and more concerned about subsidizing out-of-state for-profit companies, less interested in acting in the good interest of the citizens of the state of Florida, and more interested in profit margins.

[Florida]

Maybe when Maddox is governor, we can get a remodel for some of the uglier state buildings downtown. New paint job won't hurt.

[monsoon]

RiversideGator, on May 19 2005, 01:41 PM, said:

Read Adam Smith, The Wealth Of Nations.  The "invisible hand" of the market causes society, in the aggregate, to advance through the actions of many individuals acting in their own best interests.  Everyone works so that they can pay for things.  If this is greed, so what.  Capitalism is the best system ever devised.  This is the bottom line.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Depends on what you call "best".  Unchecked Capitalism led to Slavery here in the USA, robber barons, monopolies, child laborers in horrible conditions, dangerous and unhealthy food, destruction of the environment, destruction of much of latin america by "capitalists", etc.   The list goes on & on.