235 replies to this topic

[tim2462]

A lot of people are thinking 540 through Fort Smith is going to be used for I-49.  However, this is not going to be the case.  They are buiding a new section of freeway on the eastern side of Fort Smith to carry I-49.
A new bridge will be built across the AR River, south of Alma.  They said that there is already a lot of traffic going through Fort Smith and that putting I-49 directly through the city would create traffic nightmares.

[masons_dad1]

tim2462, on Apr 13 2006, 08:58 AM, said:

A lot of people are thinking 540 through Fort Smith is going to be used for I-49.  However, this is not going to be the case.  They are buiding a new section of freeway on the eastern side of Fort Smith to carry I-49.
A new bridge will be built across the AR River, south of Alma.  They said that there is already a lot of traffic going through Fort Smith and that putting I-49 directly through the city would create traffic nightmares.

That sounds like a good idea... the stretch of I-49 through Fort Smith will become I-549 or something of that nature. Somewhat like how I-540 is a branch of I-40.

[Mith242]

tim2462, on Apr 13 2006, 08:58 AM, said:

A lot of people are thinking 540 through Fort Smith is going to be used for I-49.  However, this is not going to be the case.  They are buiding a new section of freeway on the eastern side of Fort Smith to carry I-49.
A new bridge will be built across the AR River, south of Alma.  They said that there is already a lot of traffic going through Fort Smith and that putting I-49 directly through the city would create traffic nightmares.

Yeah I've heard that.  But that and especially the bridge is really going to make getting the rest of I-49 done very expensive project.  It seems to me that it just makes it more likely that it will take even longer to ever get I-49 done in Arkansas.  I'd have to think that if this is the case then you'd have to include the western bypass idea for NWA.  How is traffic going to be so much worse at Ft Smith than NWA.  There's a lot more population up here.  It just seems to me that with that logic you'd also have to do something similar up here because of the existing traffic on I-540.

[vbfl85]

At least the Bella Vista Bypass and the work in the Texarkana area will be finished so the spotlight can turn solely on the section in western Arkansas between i40 and i30.

As far as the western bypass is concerned, i think it can wait, they need to complete the primary route through the whole state before they think about alternative routes.

Im also surprised they decided to make i49 a toll road around Bella Vista.  Do you guys think the toll will be lifted once the road is paid off?

Edited by vbfl85, 13 April 2006 - 02:09 PM.

[Mith242]

vbfl85, on Apr 13 2006, 03:06 PM, said:

Im also surprised they decided to make i49 a toll road around Bella Vista.  Do you guys think the toll will be lifted once the road is paid off?

I think that's a big question there.  I've heard of other toll roads where even after they had paid it off the went ahead and kept the toll anyway.  Not sure how often that happens.  I'm not too surprised about the bypass around Bella Vista being a bypass.  To get the road projects done anytime in the near future will probably have to go this route.  Otherwise everyone will have to wait decades like I-540.  I imagine the same thing will end up happening with the Hwy 412 bypass as well.  Maybe there will be a part of it that's not but I expect at least some of it to end up being a toll road.

[vbfl85]

Yes, I think only time will tell however the way NWA is growing they will need as much toll money as they can get.  I think NWA could add an increase in sales tax to complete some of these projects in a more timely manner.  If NLR can raise $30 million for a baseball stadium in 2 years(?) then Benton and Washington Counties can raise enough to build some of these $400 million projects in, i dont know.... 4 years, maybe less.  And unlike the baseball stadium more people would benefit form the results.

What really surprised me from the article was that the helena bridge was once a toll bridge, i couldnt see people in that area paying to cross the river.  Then again the economy there was much better in the 70s than it is now.

[itk]

vbfl85, on Apr 13 2006, 03:06 PM, said:

Im also surprised they decided to make i49 a toll road around Bella Vista.  Do you guys think the toll will be lifted once the road is paid off?

Hmm... good question.  I'm not aware of any toll major highways/freeways that were "un-tolled" in recent years, though I'm sure that's happened before in the US freeway system.


To be honest, the 2010 projection is pretty optimistic... I would bet 2011-2012 or thereabouts (or 'whenabouts' I suppose).  

And the toll revenue, to my understanding (I wasn't involved in it, though I did read the study today but it's so long I just skimmed the financial aspects of it), would only help cover a part of the projected $210 million cost, not all of it.  It already has some federal funds dedicated to it after all.

Plus, just to be clear since the news articles I've read today weren't, the toll section of the Bella Vista Bypass will in the Arkansas section only, not in Missouri.

Edited by itk, 13 April 2006 - 03:49 PM.

[masons_dad1]

vbfl85, on Apr 13 2006, 04:05 PM, said:

Yes, I think only time will tell however the way NWA is growing they will need as much toll money as they can get.  I think NWA could add an increase in sales tax to complete some of these projects in a more timely manner.  If NLR can raise $30 million for a baseball stadium in 2 years(?) then Benton and Washington Counties can raise enough to build some of these $400 million projects in, i dont know.... 4 years, maybe less.  And unlike the baseball stadium more people would benefit form the results.

What really surprised me from the article was that the helena bridge was once a toll bridge, i couldnt see people in that area paying to cross the river.  Then again the economy there was much better in the 70s than it is now.

We're already paying 9% sales tax for everything including groceries up here and it's just barely getting any projects done. I don't think people are going to be willing to pay 10% sales tax to pay for more projects that won't be enough. Maybe if they would realize that many areas that are growing just as fast don't put all their sources of revenue into sales tax and they don't have a grocery tax in many of these areas. Currently all the cities in NWA combined are receiving around $40 million in sales tax revenue and this is much more than a couple years ago. In a couple years sales tax revenue in NWA is expected to increase to around $50-60 million without an increase in sales tax. If you ask me they need to start considering lowering taxes, especially grocery taxes.

[Mith242]

itk, on Apr 13 2006, 04:48 PM, said:

Hmm... good question.  I'm not aware of any toll major highways/freeways that were "un-tolled" in recent years, though I'm sure that's happened before in the US freeway system.
To be honest, the 2010 projection is pretty optimistic... I would bet 2011-2012 or thereabouts (or 'whenabouts' I suppose).  

And the toll revenue, to my understanding (I wasn't involved in it, though I did read the study today but it's so long I just skimmed the financial aspects of it), would only help cover a part of the projected $210 million cost, not all of it.  It already has some federal funds dedicated to it after all.

Plus, just to be clear since the news articles I've read today weren't, the toll section of the Bella Vista Bypass will in the Arkansas section only, not in Missouri.

I thought the Missouri section wouldn't be a toll road but thanks for pointing that out.  As you said most articles I've seen didn't really mention that.

[Mith242]

masons_dad1, on Apr 13 2006, 04:57 PM, said:

We're already paying 9% sales tax for everything including groceries up here and it's just barely getting any projects done. I don't think people are going to be willing to pay 10% sales tax to pay for more projects that won't be enough. Maybe if they would realize that many areas that are growing just as fast don't put all their sources of revenue into sales tax and they don't have a grocery tax in many of these areas. Currently all the cities in NWA combined are receiving around $40 million in sales tax revenue and this is much more than a couple years ago. In a couple years sales tax revenue in NWA is expected to increase to around $50-60 million without an increase in sales tax. If you ask me they need to start considering lowering taxes, especially grocery taxes.

I don't want to turn this into an 'us' against 'them' type of thing but I've wondered how much of the tax money generated in NWA makes it's way back up here.  But I think some of this stems from the fact that we live in a rather poor state.

[Aporkalypse]

Mith242, on Apr 13 2006, 05:06 PM, said:

I don't want to turn this into an 'us' against 'them' type of thing but I've wondered how much of the tax money generated in NWA makes it's way back up here.  But I think some of this stems from the fact that we live in a rather poor state.

I-540 was incredibly expensive and the rest of the state subsidized it and there was a lot of argument against that as well.  For a while they were entertaining making the North Belt Freeway near LR a toll road (though it has full federal funding) in order to pay for I-49 through Western AR but this was nixed by stiff opposition.  Also, nobody supports making that segment of I-49 a toll road even though that is probably the only way the money will be generated without oppressive taxation.  Considering the UA is in Fayetteville I think NWA is easily receiving its fair share of tax revenue.

Mith made a good point about the bridge in Ft Smith.  That was supposed to be a $60 million bridge about 5 years ago.  With the price of steel going through the roof because of China it will probably be $100 millon now.

It does seem Arkansas taxes are high but remember we do have very low property taxes in Arkansas.  My property taxes when I moved to Texas increased almost 5-fold though my home is the same value.  As a matter of fact, I paid more in property tax here than I paid in Arkansas income tax two years ago.

Edited by Aporkalypse, 13 April 2006 - 04:20 PM.

[vbfl85]

Quote

I don't want to turn this into an 'us' against 'them' type of thing but I've wondered how much of the tax money generated in NWA makes it's way back up here. But I think some of this stems from the fact that we live in a rather poor state.

NWA has the best economy in the state, so i would say it carries the state per capita in many ways. Central Arkansas gives alot as well.  Arkansas is still relatively rural and that is what makes NWA and Central Ark superior.  Thats why a toll road will work up their, because people (including people from Missouri) will pay the $1.50 to get around Bella Vista.  Since the toll is so close to the Ark/Missouri border you have to wonder how much of the road will be built with money from out of state.  Thats what makes this location so great for a toll road, a moderate portion could be funded with out of state money.

[Mith242]

Aporkalypse, on Apr 13 2006, 05:18 PM, said:

I-540 was incredibly expensive and the rest of the state subsidized it and there was a lot of argument against that as well.  For a while they were entertaining making the North Belt Freeway near LR a toll road (though it has full federal funding) in order to pay for I-49 through Western AR but this was nixed by stiff opposition.  Also, nobody supports making that segment of I-49 a toll road even though that is probably the only way the money will be generated without oppressive taxation.  Considering the UA is in Fayetteville I think NWA is easily receiving its fair share of tax revenue.

Mith made a good point about the bridge in Ft Smith.  That was supposed to be a $60 million bridge about 5 years ago.  With the price of steel going through the roof because of China it will probably be $100 millon now.

Yeah the argument can be made the other way too, especially in the past.  I'm sure NWA benefitted during the delta's prosperous times.  
As far as the bridge is concerned.  It just seems to me that it would be easier to get the ball rolling if they simply made all of the pre-existing I-540 into I-49.  Then worry about a new bypass and bridge for Ft Smith afterwards.

[Aporkalypse]

Mith242, on Apr 13 2006, 05:22 PM, said:

As far as the bridge is concerned.  It just seems to me that it would be easier to get the ball rolling if they simply made all of the pre-existing I-540 into I-49.  Then worry about a new bypass and bridge for Ft Smith afterwards.

I agree, you wonder why that isn't being proposed.

[itk]

^
I don't know whether or not that has been proposed, but to do that they would have to tie that in to the "existing proposed" location.  In other words, they (AHTD) would have to build a freeway from I-540 in Fort Smith to the future I-49.  Fort Smith is pretty well built up around I-540, so this would not be cheap.

This discussion has made me think of something-- because of the expense of a new location and new bridge for future I-49 near Fort Smith, it might be (well, actually to my understanding, I think is) a low priority for AHTD.  It has little (if any) federal ear-marked funds.  Plus, it is in the same district that NWA is in... there are so many needs in NWA, that I doubt the Commission would program another expensive project in this district that isn't directly in NWA.  (i.e., projects like the 412 bypass has higher priority)

Of course, I'm not privy to all the inner workings of the Highway Commission, so who knows.  Politics get involved, obviously.

[itk]

Aporkalypse, on Apr 13 2006, 05:18 PM, said:

Mith made a good point about the bridge in Ft Smith.  That was supposed to be a $60 million bridge about 5 years ago.  With the price of steel going through the roof because of China it will probably be $100 millon now.

If not more!  You're right, steel prices have skyrocketed as of recently.  Compared to fives years ago... almost double might not be too far off.

[Mith242]

itk, on Apr 13 2006, 07:15 PM, said:

^
I don't know whether or not that has been proposed, but to do that they would have to tie that in to the "existing proposed" location.  In other words, they (AHTD) would have to build a freeway from I-540 in Fort Smith to the future I-49.  Fort Smith is pretty well built up around I-540, so this would not be cheap.

This discussion has made me think of something-- because of the expense of a new location and new bridge for future I-49 near Fort Smith, it might be (well, actually to my understanding, I think is) a low priority for AHTD.  It has little (if any) federal ear-marked funds.  Plus, it is in the same district that NWA is in... there are so many needs in NWA, that I doubt the Commission would program another expensive project in this district that isn't directly in NWA.  (i.e., projects like the 412 bypass has higher priority)

Of course, I'm not privy to all the inner workings of the Highway Commission, so who knows.  Politics get involved, obviously.

I didn't know that.  Thanks for pointing that out to us.  Unfortunately I get the impression I-49 is going to be pretty far off in the future.  I suppose there's always a chance of getting someone in the government to help get things going with some funding, but somehow I don't think anyone should hold their breath.

[Aporkalypse]

Mith242, on Apr 13 2006, 07:36 PM, said:

I didn't know that.  Thanks for pointing that out to us.  Unfortunately I get the impression I-49 is going to be pretty far off in the future.  I suppose there's always a chance of getting someone in the government to help get things going with some funding, but somehow I don't think anyone should hold their breath.

When you really think about what I-49 would connect it really doesn't seem that high priority for Arkansas.  It would more directly connect NWA/Ft Smith to DFW and points South, I guess, but these locations can by routes in OK (I-40 West to US 75 which takes you directly to DFW without ever losing 4 lane controlled access) without adding much if any time.  The communities in Western Arkansas that would be linked would be fairly small and unimportant, the most significant would be Mena and there's a big dropoff after that.  Sure a few truck-stops would pop up along these roads but that doesn't justify the high price.

I also think Missouri won't have much interest in upgrading US 71 to interstate quality.  They have built it as a 4-lane road essentially its entire length except for a short stretch in McDonald Co but the interchanges, overpasses, and underpasses will be a big problem as right now a lot of farm roads cross the highway without exits along its entire length.

[tim2462]

Aporkalypse, on Apr 13 2006, 10:56 PM, said:

When you really think about what I-49 would connect it really doesn't seem that high priority for Arkansas.  It would more directly connect NWA/Ft Smith to DFW and points South, I guess, but these locations can by routes in OK (I-40 West to US 75 which takes you directly to DFW without ever losing 4 lane controlled access) without adding much if any time.  The communities in Western Arkansas that would be linked would be fairly small and unimportant, the most significant would be Mena and there's a big dropoff after that.  Sure a few truck-stops would pop up along these roads but that doesn't justify the high price.

I also think Missouri won't have much interest in upgrading US 71 to interstate quality.  They have built it as a 4-lane road essentially its entire length except for a short stretch in McDonald Co but the interchanges, overpasses, and underpasses will be a big problem as right now a lot of farm roads cross the highway without exits along its entire length.

US 75 in Oklahoma is an awful route for many reasons.
First of all, you do lose four lane controlled access many times in small towns.  The speed limit
goes from 70 to 40 in a very short distance, which creates MANY speed traps on that highway.
I fell into one of them in the good little town of Kiowa.   The quality of the road is not very good
on top of that.  It's just a bad idea to travel that route.  There needs to be an alternative.

[vbfl85]

Quote

I also think Missouri won't have much interest in upgrading US 71 to interstate quality. They have built it as a 4-lane road essentially its entire length except for a short stretch in McDonald Co but the interchanges, overpasses, and underpasses will be a big problem as right now a lot of farm roads cross the highway without exits along its entire length.

Even though most of US 71 in Missouri isnt at interstate grade, Missouri is much closer to completion than Arkansas.  The only exception in Missouri is a certain neighborhoods in southern Kansas City that wont allow the road to be upgraded, even though the grading and other landwork is already in place.  An estimate listed a couple of years ago said Missouri could fix the grading issues between KC and the state line for $200 million, though im sure its more now.

Unless Louisiana cuts their funding due to Katrina, I believe Arkansas will be the last state to finish the i49 project.

Edited by vbfl85, 14 April 2006 - 08:24 AM.