295 replies to this topic

[sojay]

Oh, I didn't see this whole pedestrian discussion before posting something similar on the Innovista thread with some ideas. Maybe it's time to make a separate thread on how to make Cola more pedestrian friendly?
innovista

[sojay]

Re crossing large avenues in NYC: absolutely NONE that I'm familiar with are as intimidating as Assembly. The widest I can think of is where Broadway and Columbus ave cross in front of Lincoln Center, and there, the medians are extremely large - small parks, even.

[waccamatt]

I'm thinking of Broadway, 5th and Park Avenues specifically.

Edited by waccamatt, 12 November 2006 - 09:53 PM.

[TheCarolinaKing]

huger is gonna need work too

[krazeeboi]

Coble has mentioned a future Huger streetscaping in the past; it will eventually need it.

[digital_sandlapper]

krazeeboi, on Nov 10 2006, 08:49 PM, said:

The only one street that I really advocate narrowing is Assembly, which I think is entirely TOO wide. It can be narrowed without significantly reducing vehicle capacity quite easily. Hampton would be another one, and I would like to see it converted to a two-way street myself.

Right you are, Krazee.  We've discussed this at length in the "Greening of Columbia" thread, for anyone interested in reading up on it.  We had some great ideas on it, IMO.

Assembly can be easily narrowed into a still-wide boulevard into/out of the city without any loss of capacity.  Right now, the 8 to 10+ lanes are overkill.  I've never seen a whole block of each lane on this street bumper-to-bumper waiting for the light to change, so losing one lane each way would have no effect on its capacity, and losing 2 each way except at intersections wouldn't hurt either.

Sinking the streets sounds terrible!  We definitely don't want to go back to the "Urban Renewal" way of thinking of the 1960s and 70s do we?  Heck, no!  In fact, many cities--San Francisco and Providence just to name two--are doing the opposite and demolishing those raised and sunken freeways through downtowns in favor of the traditional and beautiful street grids and boulevards to handle traffic.  If drivers don't want to slow down for these, then they can just GO ANOTHER ROUTE where they can drive as furiously as they want AWAY from the civilized among us.

[BrasilnSC]

Assembly St. is only 6 lanes wide, 8 if you include turning lanes, if I'm not mistaken.  I still think it is too wide for the traffic we see.
Here is some traffic data for 2005 that I've gathered up.  The number of lanes does not include turning lanes.
Source SCDOT: Traffic

Assembly St. ADT (Avg. Daily Traffic)

Elmwood to Taylor St - 20700 - 6 lanes
Taylor St to Gervais   - 23800 - 6 lanes
Gervais to Blossom    - 22200 - 6 lanes
Blossom to Rosewood - 22000 - 4 lanes (Blossom to Whaley), 6 lanes (Whaley to Rosewood)

In comparison, here is the 2005 ADT for Gervais St.   Again, number of lanes not including turn lanes.

Lex. County to Huger - 26100 - 6 lanes (bridge is 4 lanes)
Huger to Assembly     - 29700 - 6 lanes rush hour, 4 off-peak(right lanes become parking in the upper Vista)
Assembly to Bull St    - 25900 - 4 lanes
Bull St to Harden       - 27700 - 4 lanes
Harden to Milwood     - 28800 - 4 lanes

From these numbers, it is clear that Gervais St. carries more traffic than Assembly.  So, I think Assembly should be modeled after Gervais in the Vista.  Get rid of all curbside parking on both sides of the street and the median.  Widen the sidewalks and median, keeping 6 lanes of traffic during rush hours.  In the evenings and weekends, the right lanes could turn into parking for customers and event goers (perhaps from 10am to 3pm on weekdays also).  Even with 4 lanes, from Assembly to Milwood, I think Gervais St handles traffic well.

Edited by BrasilnSC, 14 November 2006 - 08:35 AM.

[digital_sandlapper]

BrasilnSC, on Nov 14 2006, 10:14 AM, said:

Assembly St. is only 6 lanes wide, 8 if you include turning lanes, if I'm not mistaken.  I still think it is too wide for the traffic we see.
Here is some traffic data for 2005 that I've gathered up.  The number of lanes does not include turning lanes.
Source SCDOT: Traffic

Assembly St. ADT (Avg. Daily Traffic)

Elmwood to Taylor St - 20700 - 6 lanes
Taylor St to Gervais   - 23800 - 6 lanes
Gervais to Blossom    - 22200 - 6 lanes
Blossom to Rosewood - 22000 - 4 lanes (Blossom to Whaley), 6 lanes (Whaley to Rosewood)

In comparison, here is the 2005 ADT for Gervais St.   Again, number of lanes not including turn lanes.

Lex. County to Huger - 26100 - 6 lanes (bridge is 4 lanes)
Huger to Assembly     - 29700 - 6 lanes rush hour, 4 off-peak(right lanes become parking in the upper Vista)
Assembly to Bull St    - 25900 - 4 lanes
Bull St to Harden       - 27700 - 4 lanes
Harden to Milwood     - 28800 - 4 lanes

From these numbers, it is clear that Gervais St. carries more traffic than Assembly.  So, I think Assembly should be modeled after Gervais in the Vista.  Get rid of all curbside parking on both sides of the street and the median.  Widen the sidewalks and median, keeping 6 lanes of traffic during rush hours.  In the evenings and weekends, the right lanes could turn into parking for customers and event goers (perhaps from 10am to 3pm on weekdays also).  Even with 4 lanes, from Assembly to Milwood, I think Gervais St handles traffic well.

Brasil, thanks for all these figures.    Right you are--and this is proof.

I think Assembly could have live oaks down its median, with clusters of palmettos on the ends with flower beds.  The median could also have grass, azaleas, and nice wide crosswalks.  These crosswalks could even hold a bench or two, trash recepticles, or water fountains.  It truly needs to be the "Boulevard of South Carolina", and could an awesome welcome mat into the Capitol City.

[Charleston native]

krazeeboi, on Nov 10 2006, 07:49 PM, said:

The only one street that I really advocate narrowing is Assembly, which I think is entirely TOO wide. It can be narrowed without significantly reducing vehicle capacity quite easily...

Obviously you've never tried to park around the USC part of Assembly during classes.   I have to disagree here. Bring on more greenery, bury utility lines, install traffic light posts...but please do not narrow the street. This would be a very shortsighted solution. Remember, Assembly is the primary route for football, basketball, and baseball games. You also need to allow for concerts, special events, and current student traffic. Narrowing a street would unnecessarily burden it by decreasing traffic lanes. Also, let's not forget the potential growth and congestion in this corridor that will be stimulated because of Innovista.

Narrowing this street for the sense of aesthetics and slowing traffic is inefficient and costly. Many people who live in the metro area already complain about going through DT...imagine how much worse those complaints would get. Yes, narrow streets prevail in Chas, but they were that way to begin. Just because it works in one city doesn't mean it will work in another.

Edited by Charleston native, 14 November 2006 - 02:52 PM.

[krazeeboi]

I'm not basing my view of the narrowing of Assembly on Charleston's streets; I'm not proposing that Assembly be THAT narrow. I think two lanes (three at most) in each direction, with some turning lanes, is sufficient for Assembly. Furthermore, the lanes themselves are too wide. And BrasilnSC's stats show that the normal traffic flow along Assembly doesn't warrant all that width. Don't forget, with Innovista comes a slew of new parking garages. Furthermore, while Assembly is certainly a major thoroughfare, Columbia's great grid system ensures that traffic snares won't really be a problem, if done right. From what I hear, the main problems getting through DT is the timing of the lights and the trains, not road capacity.

Edited by krazeeboi, 14 November 2006 - 03:40 PM.

[sojay]

I think removing the 4 lanes of parking will already do a great job, especially with substantial greenery to bring it to a human scale. The red light phases are really long for pedestrians and there is no shade at all. I agree that the new parking garages that seem to be popping up like crazy could eliminate parking needs on Assembly. I also agree that the eyesore that Assembly currently is in that area could turn around and become an asset if it is made into a grand boulevard. Hmm, thinking Champs Elysées or NY's Park Ave in terms of scale... Large landcaped medians for sure.

I don't know about the sunken streets either - I'm not too familiar with them. NY has a couple of through-traffic tunnels, though, and traffic really flows well with them, bypassing red lights. But playing with that idea... what if you'd have from one side to another:
- a large landscaped sidewalk,
- then a one-lane local traffic lane,
- then a heavily landscaped median,
- then a 2-lane sunken and partially covered street in each north/south direction for through traffic (where there'd be no traffic lights) and which pedestrians can walk over on wide footbridges like the one behind the horseshoe at College st and Pickins (with lanes that can handle bikers, pedestrians, rollerbladers, segueys...especially at Greene St which will be the big east-west boulevard)
- then another landscaped median
- and on the far side another 1 (or 2-lane) local traffic street
- and again a large sidewalk with more trees.

The result would be 4 rows of trees - by all means, aiming for the feel of the stately trees on the horseshoe and palmettos.

I'd be happy to scetch it out and post it if you can't picture it. It would be expensive because of the digging involved, but the powerlines need to go anyway and what an asset it would be for Cola! Not to speak of safety for all those people crossing. The city AND USC know it's hazardous, I'm just waiting for the first lawsuit...

Huger could use a similar kind of treatment, which would make the Kline and the Canalside projects more attractive because they would be better connected to te Vista.

Maybe one should do a study on large boulevards around the world and their effect on pedestrian life etc... Any students interested in an undergraduate research paper...?

[Spartan]

Interesting idea. If you going to sink the road then you may as well go ahead and cover up. Make a tunel out of it. The problem then becomes how to get out of that tunnel and into the city without a massive overhaul of the city streets.

I think Columbia ned to make better use of its grid. Some traffic on Assembly could be routed down Sumter St to access Elmwood. Its not as heavily used as Assembly, Huger, or Bull. Laruel Street is another significant thorugh street that is not used to is fullest. It connects from Huger all the way to Two Notch if I'm not mistaken. Send people coming from the eastern part of the city up Sumter and down Laurel to access Huger/and the 126 intersection. Time the lights to make it possible to do.

[TheCarolinaKing]

I say get rid of the streed parking in the middle , green it up, leave the individual lanes wide (i love that about columbia and that was one of the original calling cards for the city)   syncronize the lights, and maybe increase size of cross walks and time for walking. oh and i know i mentioned tunnels, but what i meant was a walking tunnel like that between the law school and the collosium.

[Infinite1]

Washington, DC has alot of grade separated (ie sunken) interchanges.  I don't think Huger is a good candidate for that though.

[TheCarolinaKing]

I didnt like the sunken streets in DC, they really got on my nerves!

[krazeeboi]

They can most certainly be confusing, but what really gets me are the traffic circles. They are SO confusing to navigate, and on top of that you've got to get used to the traffic lights being attached to a pole on the corner instead of overhead.

[Charleston native]

TheCarolinaKing, on Nov 15 2006, 01:04 AM, said:

I say get rid of the streed parking in the middle , green it up, leave the individual lanes wide (i love that about columbia and that was one of the original calling cards for the city)   syncronize the lights, and maybe increase size of cross walks and time for walking. oh and i know i mentioned tunnels, but what i meant was a walking tunnel like that between the law school and the collosium.

Obviously, none of you guys take classes at USC during the day or try to find parking there as a graduate student. These ideas you suggest wreak of total disregard for the amount of students that have to park near USC for 1 or 2 classes a day, especially for a shorter period of time. Are these new parking garages going to be metered (they should be) or are you going to have to pay $50 a month to use them? The problem is that it is unclear if these parking garages will solve the parking chaos.

The parking at Assembly is essential for part-time/graduate students who can't live in dorms and have to drive into DT for a 3-hour class that meets one day. Believe me, I know, because I'm one of them. I think you can still have the parking and accomodate for greenery and line burial. The street can still be aesthetically pleasing and useful for students.

[krazeeboi]

Charleston native, on Nov 15 2006, 10:09 AM, said:

Obviously, none of you guys take classes at USC during the day or try to find parking there as a graduate student. These ideas you suggest wreak of total disregard for the amount of students that have to park near USC for 1 or 2 classes a day, especially for a shorter period of time.

Weren't you one of the people complaining about how the city revolves around USC? LOL I really don't think this is such a mega-issue as you're making it out to be; all USC has to do is revamp its parking strategy and provide more places for parking. Assembly has too much potential and shouldn't resemble an interstate with traffic lights through downtown.

Mr. Chips, one of the Innovista-related parking garages will have the ground floor utilized by USC's music department.

[Captain Worley]

Aren't the vast parking lots west of the Coliseum still CS lot?  I used to park there and walk.  I never understood the people who circled the block looking for a close parking place.

[BrasilnSC]

^Yes, 3 of the 4 big surface lots behind the coliseum are Commuting Students (CS) spaces.  It's only 20 or 30 bucks a semester i think.  It was 20 when I was in school 98-03.  Just park a little further away and walk or take the shuttle.

Edited by BrasilnSC, 15 November 2006 - 03:12 PM.