21 replies to this topic

[hood]

I found some pics from someone who took their own tour of the Prudden factory, kinda makes me want to go there myself and get some better pics:

































Razed buildings nearby:

[Lmichigan]

I really like this pic looking up the chimney:



When I wrote Pat Gillespie who's developing a luxury apartment complex adjacent to this property, I shared with him that it would be awesome if they could really redo the whole area.

It would be really cool to see neon letters than spell out "Prudden" or "Welcome to Lansing" at night on the chimney stack.  Or, at least light up the chimney stack.  I also think it would be REALLY cool if they redid the railroad underpasses to welcome people into Lansing better.  Heck, the least they could do is paint the railroad overpasses.

[hood]

Well now that they are trying to redevelop this site, they wont do what I thought should be done. I always thought Saginaw and Oakland should have bridges going over the railroad rather than under, thats what they usually did anyways, I don't know what possessed them to go under it. The Prudden factory is in really rough shape, the picture appear mixed between one both before and after the most recent rennovation began, they have a lot of work ahead of them. I hate to be so pessimistic but I doubt the project will ever be completed, at least by the current developer. And maybe they could put some stairs up the smokestack turn it into a small observation deck, I cant tell how large it is inside from the pic but they would only need about 5 or 6 ft.

[Lmichigan]

Hood, they have been aggresively working on the factory.  For awhile they were waiting for the money to come in, but just last week, or the week before last they began working all day, and often into the night.  As you know, I live near it and pass by it quite often and could hear them powerwashing the inside and cleaning out more of the debris.

BTW, the reason they went under is because there is quite a sizeable hill that runs north to south just east of downtown.  To take a bridge up and over a hill would have been very expensive, and would have terrible disrupted the businesses that once lined the street, and the houses that still do.

[hood]

Maybe they will get the project done then. But I don't think there were ever any businesses in that part of Saginaw/Oakland, but one building on Saginaw, there is/was only Demmer, Motor Wheel (Prudden), and a few abandoned buildings and warehouses. I still feel sort of sorry for anyone who moves to this area if they don't know what they are getting themselves into. A lot of people are ignorant as to the condition of areas, I once heard someone that worked in the state officies at Washington & Elm say that they thought the area was pretty good, he was suprised to learn how bad that area is. And before you say it, I know this area isn't as bad as anything in Flint or Detroit, but it is still pretty bad, especially East Park Terrace.

[wolverine]

Looks cool!  I think these old factory conversions are awesome.  Who would have thought years ago, that people would one day be living in them.  

Ann Arbor has a very similar project going on right now called Liberty Place, where Eaton Co. just moved out of.

[Lmichigan]

Hood, trust me, when making a move like this people know what they are getting in to, especially those that are moving from the suburbs who already consider all of Lansing a ghetto anyway.

I still don't get what you mean about the area being so bad.  It's not like the people in either the Prudden Factory or the neighboring Prudden Place Apartments have to worry about getting mugged or murdered living right next door to the North Lansing Precinct.

Even more importantely, people consider crime and safety as ONE factor when choosing a neighborhood, and many don't even choose it as their first.  Seriously, if you want to live your whole life with the a false sense of security the suburbs are for you, and that's where those people move.  Those that take safety and crime into account as ONE of many factors find themselves moving to the city.

Seriously, for a place like Flint or Detroit I could see safety being a major factor, but in a city like Lansing you could basically build anything anywhere in the city and if the demand is there people will come.  Let me tell you, projects have been developed in far worse cities and areas across this country and people flock to them.  Just look at the numerous and relatively steady demand for housing in some of Detroit's worse-off areas.

[hood]

Lmichigan, on Aug 12 2005, 06:09 PM, said:

Hood, trust me, when making a move like this people know what they are getting in to, especially those that are moving from the suburbs who already consider all of Lansing a ghetto anyway.

I still don't get what you mean about the area being so bad.  It's not like the people in either the Prudden Factory or the neighboring Prudden Place Apartments have to worry about getting mugged or murdered living right next door to the North Lansing Precinct.

Even more importantely, people consider crime and safety as ONE factor when choosing a neighborhood, and many don't even choose it as their first.  Seriously, if you want to live your whole life with the a false sense of security the suburbs are for you, and that's where those people move.  Those that take safety and crime into account as ONE of many factors find themselves moving to the city.

Seriously, for a place like Flint or Detroit I could see safety being a major factor, but in a city like Lansing you could basically build anything anywhere in the city and if the demand is there people will come.  Let me tell you, projects have been developed in far worse cities and areas across this country and people flock to them.  Just look at the numerous and relatively steady demand for housing in some of Detroit's worse-off areas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wrote a long response, but somehow, I cleared the "reply" box out while ending my response But to sum it up, the North Precinct gives a false sense of security, the fact that all of the windows from the 1999 rennovation were busted out in anly a couple months proves that, and that people can walk freely in and out of the building. Also this neighborhood, is right by the  highest crime area in the city, across Saginaw to the south, and the second highest crime area in the city, to the West across Larch.

This neighborhood itself, defined as being bounded by Lake Lansing Rd. on the North, Saginaw St. on the South, Bancroft Park on the East and Larch St on the West is not, overall, an extremely bad neighborhood, but is worse than anything south of Mt Hope, but this neighborhood generally gets worse the further south and west you go, placing the Prudden disrict in the worst part of it. I have the following stats on this area, population data is from the 2000 census and crime data is from the Lansing Police Crime Mapper 9/5/2004-3/10/2005, approximately 6 months.

*All Rates are for per 100,000 people*

Population - 4,675
Per-Capita income - $14,286
Median house value - $42,925
% of persons living in poverty - 22.6
Homicide rate 1995-2000 - 17.87
All crimes - 401
     CRIME DATA= Number / Rate
All felonies - 102 / 4,363.6
Robberies - 4 / 171.1
Felonious Assaults - 19 / 812.8
Car Theft - 9 / 385.5
Burglary - 49 / 2,096.3
Narcotics - 15 / 641.7
CSC - 4 / 171.1

I can get this info for any neighborhood in Lansing, some areas are defined as larger ones than others, I defined them based them loosly on Police districts, most however I made into two "neighborhoods." If you would like anymore info just let me know.

[Lmichigan]

Ok, point taken.  I must ask, what do you have against people moving in and changing a neighborhood?  It happens all the time.  If we all lived our life looking at crime stats we'd all be living in behind barricades in concrete bunkers.

Like I said, I could someone really taking pause with moving into certain areas of Detroit, Flint, or Saginaw, but not anywhere in Lansing in a new high-end development.  These people have the Stadium, City Market, East Michigan Avenue a large park, and the riverfront all in relatively walkable range.  The convenience far outweighs anything else for many people.  I guess by statistics, I live in a high crime area (for Lansing), too.  And I really couldn't care less.

I guess I take it kind of personally, becauase I just don't get the big deal.  It has been shown over and over again, that the perception of crime (especially by suburbanites) is far greater than it's reality.  And, if you're not out looking for crime, or involved in shady business, your chances of being a victim or crime become even less in certain categories.

Maybe, I'll start viewing this differently when I see large crowds of obvious up-to-no-good drifters menacing citizens on our sidewalks.  Until then, I feel safe in saying that there are few place I personally feel like I have to seriously be one guard in the City of Lansing.

Mark my words, Prudden Place and Prudden Factory will BOTH work and be successful.    If Woodward Place at Brush Park and countless other lofts/condo/apartment developments can work in shady areas of Detroit there is no reason besides disinterest that Prudden and others can not work in little ole' Lansing.

Edited by Lmichigan, 12 August 2005 - 07:46 PM.

[hood]

While there are, admittedly, few neighborhoods in Lansing to fear, unfortunatly the neighborhoods directly to the east, west and south are three of them. Of course this is if you look out of place, basically, if your in these areas after business hours, and you look rich, preppy or gothic, or something else that just doesn't fit, you better watch out. I don't know how you look act or dress, but that probably has the most to do with whether or not you get messed with. A point that I left out above is that Lansing doesn't have as large of a population of people willing to move into these areas, I think they are reffered to as the "creative class," a group of people I can't stand on a personal level, but i do like the development they can spur, they are the ones you usually find moving into these "high-risk" areas, there simply aren't enough in the Lansing area to support these developments, at least not with them being so seperated from the real downtown. I beleive that if these projects succeed they will be occupied by middle income people from Lansing, people who want to remain in the city but want to live in something new, this is what will likely fill the BTS, not suburbanites looking to relocate. It's kind of ironic that the projects designed to help Lansing could ultimately hurt it, at least in a small way, by people vacating one neighborhood and going to another. My point overall is really that these projects will not be a saving grace for the city they will be islands of upper income in a sea of low income, the city will continue to decline, as almost all others have, and will continue to do, it's inevidible.

[Lmichigan]

I understand.  But EVERY redevelopment in central cities have started out as "islands."  I don't like the defeatists attitude which says "we might as well not build because they won't come."  Decline is not inevitable unless we let it be.  

I don't know what makes Lansing worse than the hundreds of other cities (many smaller than Lansing) that have redevelop parts or the entire central cities.  You seem to believe that Lansing is the bottom of the barrel and destinted to fail, and really, with that kind of attitude it will.  

I guess we should never try because it is possible to fail.  Or should we try because their is a possiblity to succeed?  We have enough doubters in this city to fill East Lansing.  We don't need more.

People seem to forget that many were certain, just certain, that New York City was on it's way out, destined to become a First World Slum in the 70's.  And on smaller scales, there were cities that no one would have ever guessed would have made a turn around.  It all starts with small grassroots efforts.  Lansing is and will be no different.

It would be different if we were talking about huge lofts developments the size of the Ottawa Street Station.  THAT I might doubt.  But we're talking relatively small renovations with the Prudden being the largest of these small renovations.  This doesn't take into account the many and smaller developments that are slowly, but steadily filling up around the area.  

Sure, some neighborhoods will continue to decline.  Sure, we will lose some more prominent structures to disinvestments.  Sure, there will be more failures, but people shouldn't be driven and held to failure, rather aware of the possibility of failure, but with the focuse on success and progress.  Anything less is validating stereotypes and setting yourself up for failure.

Let's keep this snowball rolling.  Let us not doubt it's potential to roll over and weather failure.  I couldn't live my life in "sudden doom" mode or I'd be one depressed individual.  I could easily move to Las Vegas if I wanted to (I have family out there) I choose to stay in a place with a defined soul, character, and a chance to stay real.

Edited by Lmichigan, 12 August 2005 - 08:43 PM.

[hood]

I'm just saying, the entire city or in this case specifically, the neighborhood, won't turn around, it's sort of a given. Downtown will likely turn around, unless someone really screws up. Other areas have potential, the westside for instance, especially west of Jenison, could really be great, the houses have somewhat declined, but are still at a point where they could be cheaply fixed. I'm saying that this area, will not likely succeed, there is a chance these projects will, but not the housing surrounding it, it just won't happen, at least not until the neighborhood gets so bad everything is abandoned and mostly tore down, thats why the Brush Park project in Detroit worked, most everything was already gone and what was left was old mansions and other buildings with extremely nice and unique architecture. The neighborhood surrounding prudden just sucks, it was built as a blue-collar neighborhood with basic architecture, and enough occupied houses to shoot down any positive redevelopment of the neighborhood. There are two aspects you have to look at in an area, it's current condition and it's potential, the neighborhood surrounding prudden is currently better than Brush Park, but has virtually no potential, compared to Brush Park, which has huge potential, but a high price tag to go with it.

[Lmichigan]

I'll agree partially with that assessment.  The homes around Prudden are far too small and old to be desireable.  But, I truly believe that it can see marked improvement in terms of crime and safety.  Not every area of the city needs to be wealthy.

And, I don't believe we should segregate people within cities by wealth, either.  Prudden will work not in spite of its location, but BECAUSE of its location.  It's on the edge of downtown, no doubt, but not too far away where it is not in walking distance from the Central Business District, and the other amenities of central Lansing.

[jaredw]

By the way, by removing a vacated empty factory and replacing it with something that people will be living in, crime may decrease.  Residents are known to be watchdogs for their neighborhood.  Eyesores on the other hand are welcoming gifts to crime.

Plus, if and when Prudden succeeds, it will show developers that there is potential to redevelop that area of Lansing.  Developers in some cases have been known to buy up whole blocks and redevelop for the better.  See Eastwood Towne Center.

[Lmichigan]

Eastwood Towne Center was an empty field, and it is sprawled now.  I wouldn't say it was "redeveloped for the better."  It's simply using empty land, instead of using the underutilized city.  It's nothing more than a glorified mall that really was built in spite of what could have been put into a more urban location, filling old storefronts, or built anew in an urban area.

Edited by Lmichigan, 12 August 2005 - 10:50 PM.

[jaredw]

I agree, but what I was going for was that Eyde bought up all the homes along Lake Lansing for the project.  As far as urban sprawl is, it sure is.

[Lmichigan]

Ok, but how was that a good thing for urban development or redevelopment?  The only silver linning I can see in it's creation is that it brought stores to the Lansing area that would have otherwise never set up here.  But more importantly to me is that instead of concentrating on trying to fill out vacant storefronts with quality retail we continue to accept the mantra that "new is always better."

I really wish developers would spend half the effort and energy they do going after empty suburban land for development as they would aggresively market their urban investments.

[hood]

If enough people show interest in those developments they will happily reinvest in urban areas. Developers are businessmen, they do what makes money, and they don't care about much else, and I don't expect them to. If you want to spur a shift towards urban projects you have to work on changing peoples attitudes, not the developers.

[Lmichigan]

I agree, and I always realize that after I rail against developers for not taking extra steps.  

I agree, developers are businessmen, and thus need to do what is profitable, not necessarily always what is good for an urban area, though that should always be one of the factors in development.

BTW, I have MANY construction photos today from Prudden Place and Factory and East Village.

[hood]

Lmichigan, on Aug 13 2005, 07:49 PM, said:

I agree, and I always realize that after I rail against developers for not taking extra steps. 

I agree, developers are businessmen, and thus need to do what is profitable, not necessarily always what is good for an urban area, though that should always be one of the factors in development.

BTW, I have MANY construction photos today from Prudden Place and Factory and East Village.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats why there are now tax incentives, to help level the playing field between low-cost, low-risk sprawling developments versus high(er) cost, high-risk urban revitalization projects. Take those away you take away the urban core's already dim hope.