451 replies to this topic

[TheAnk]

The ACLU is a terrorist organization..

[Cotuit]

TheAnk, on Nov 25 2005, 01:09 PM, said:

The ACLU is a terrorist organization..

Now do you really think it's appropriate to be so flip with the terrorist tag?  

The CCLU was on your side of the New London eminent domain case, are you a terrorist?

[Frankie811]

TheAnk, on Nov 25 2005, 01:09 PM, said:

The ACLU is a terrorist organization..

Oh jeezzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Looks like I was right!!!!  

[Frankie811]

Cotuit, on Nov 16 2005, 04:04 PM, said:

I saw an article in the ProJo today with a familiar byline...   but I haven't had time to read, and I can't find it in the online version.

There's been a significant rebutal in Friday's Projo concerning Ari's letter to the editor on Kennedy Plaza and Burnside Park. The author is Barry Schiller who is the transportation chairman of the Sierra Club, RI chapter. This response is not located in the usual Letters to The Editor section of the paper, but in the Metro section on page C2 which is why I cannot provide a link. I'm not totally sure how much I can quote here, but here goes. Please edit me if I've disobeyed UP rules.  




"The writer wants to eliminate the bus hub in the plaza, in effect leaving most passengers with no access to restrooms, timely bus information, a cafe, police presence, or to an indoor place to sit and wait for a bus. This would return conditions to what I experienced for most of my 39 years using RIPTA buses before the Kennedy Plaza hub was developed. The writer also seems to suggest that buses not come downtown at all, requiring most passengers to transfer at some other point to get to the city. Since many buses get quite crowded when they get near the city, this would delay passengers and force them onto other already crowded vehicles."


"Though Mr Heckman and his CEO friend seem to think that the mostly low-income people who use the buses are unsightly or intimidating and so should be shunted aside to somewhere else, they might find that bus passengers are fine people. Perhaps they should ride a few routes and check it out. There are actually many middle-class riders, too, and RIPTA has indicated that they have a significant number of passengers who ride for environmental reasons."


"What is sad is that the writer apparently does not see a good transit system as a tool for urban revitalization."

Edited by Frankie811, 26 November 2005 - 05:44 AM.

[Cotuit]

Frankie811, on Nov 26 2005, 06:43 AM, said:

"What is sad is that the writer apparently does not see a good transit system as a tool for urban revitalization."

Produce a good transit system, then we can talk.

[Cotuit]

I've been thinking about this letter since I read it. It's so PC and exacerbating.

"in effect leaving most passengers with no access to restrooms, timely bus information, a cafe, police presence, or to an indoor place to sit and wait for a bus."

I've used the mens room at KP in a pinch before, the floors are covered in piss, the smell is gawdawful, there's usually a homeless person bathing himself at the sink. It's not quite as bad as Port Authority, but it's close. I fear what the ladies find in their restroom. At least I can stand and hold my breath. It doesn't have to be this way either. There's a public restroom in my favourite park, Bryant Park, that has an attendant, it is being constantly cleaned, people can't linger, messes are cleaned, illegal activity cannot take place.

"Timely bus information..."

From RIPTA?   Oh that's precious.

"A cafe"

Seriously, a cafe? There's 2 Dunkin Donuts, soon to be 2 Starbucks, the Pain, and soon Tim Hortons within two blocks, and the one in KP is the worst of the bunch. We should expect better, or do without.

"Police presence..."

Now, I'm the first one to defend the police in Providence, my work has me interacting with them frequently, and as such, I'm also not shy to criticize. Twenty officers hanging around the 'Intermodal' station while acres of plaza go un-patrolled does not a police presence make. The frequency of riots in the plaza also indicate that the police are not, or cannot properly patrol the area. There is a substation there, but there's no reason the substation would have to leave. Besides, I get by just fine waiting at the tunnel or on Federal Hill or at the Convention Center without the cops protecting me. The fact that police presence is a concern speaks volumes about the current condition of KP.

"The writer also seems to suggest that buses not come downtown at all, requiring most passengers to transfer at some other point to get to the city."

I didn't see the writer suggest that at all. In fact he advocated more frequent trolley service (real trolleys, on tracks) serve KP and other buses may serve areas in a close orbit of KP. The effect could actually be to bring more people closer to their actual destinations around the center, rather than just shy of their destinations as the current hub drops people. Just look at the through routing that RIPTA is doing to try to get people from the area around RIH to ride the buses, something's not working right if it takes that much rerouting to get people to use discounted passes.

"Though Mr Heckman and his CEO friend seem to think that the mostly low-income people who use the buses are unsightly or intimidating and so should be shunted aside to somewhere else, they might find that bus passengers are fine people. Perhaps they should ride a few routes and check it out. There are actually many middle-class riders, too, and RIPTA has indicated that they have a significant number of passengers who ride for environmental reasons."

This is the typical PC diarrhea that TheAnk is pointing to in the Mall Brawl thread. Don't like what someone is saying? Turn on the PC bullsh*t and call them classist, racist, or whatever -ist you can try to make stick.

It IS mostly low-income people who ride the buses. Are the low-income people in and of themselves the problem? No, it's the small subset of low-income people who are drug addicts or socially inept or Hope High students or just plain crazy who are making KP unattractive to everyone. Those who have the means to not deal with it (i.e. own a car) avoid it, those who don't suffer through it.

Many of RIPTAs riders are not middle-class, some are. But even if there were many, that doesn't solve the problem of many more being turned off by the plaza. This is saying, middle-class people ride, therefore there is no problem. Like saying, many teenagers behave themselves in the mall, therefore there is no problem in the mall involving teenagers. Certainly there are middle-class people using RIPTA, but that doesn't change the fact that many many many people of all classes are completely off-put by it and that is a problem.

"Perhaps they should ride a few routes and check it out."

Riding the bus is not the problem, it's the plaza. I've been involved in many discussions at my job about doing something about our parking shortage. Everytime RIPTA comes up as an alternative, it is shot down because people are afraid to go into the plaza after dark. Interestingly, when it was pointed out to some of these people that there are other stops not in the plaza (Memorial at the Textron Building, the bottom of the tunnel at South Main, South Water near the Old Stone Bank Building...) they become intrigued. These people might ride the bus, but not if it involves going to KP. Even the most 'environmental' of them.

"What is sad is that the writer apparently does not see a good transit system as a tool for urban revitalization."

Again, a good transit system would be wonderful, I don't see the current KP as being part of one though.

[matt]

Cotuit, on Nov 28 2005, 02:14 AM, said:

I've been thinking about this letter since I read it. It's so PC and exacerbating.
<snip>

Cotuit, would it be possible for you to formally reply to this persons letter?  This could really open up the discussion to the public...

[glassandsteel]

Yeah, really.  Please do.

[pdxstreetcar]

i dont remember too well how the buses worked when Kennedy Plaza was being renovated a few years ago, but what if all the lines running into providence blanketed downtown instead of all coming to a concentrated place like now with KP.

Perhaps several lines run north-south along dorrance/francis, others north-south along empire, other north-south along exchange and others north-south along main st., then have several routes running east-west along either weybosset/westminster couplet, sabin/fountain couplet, washington or memorial? Sort of forming a large grid of bus routes downtown. then you could transfer where the lines intersect

or maybe a linear transit mall

[Frankie811]

pdxstreetcar, on Nov 30 2005, 04:47 PM, said:

i dont remember too well how the buses worked when Kennedy Plaza was being renovated a few years ago, but what if all the lines running into providence blanketed downtown instead of all coming to a concentrated place like now with KP.

Perhaps several lines run north-south along dorrance/francis, others north-south along empire, other north-south along exchange and others north-south along main st., then have several routes running east-west along either weybosset/westminster couplet, sabin/fountain couplet, washington or memorial? Sort of forming a large grid of bus routes downtown. then you could transfer where the lines intersect

or maybe a linear transit mall

No thank you. I like the hub and spoke system just fine. For economical, safety and logistical purposes you centralize, not decentralize.

[pdxstreetcar]

well the reason i threw that idea out there is because it seemed that the centralization was a large cause for the problems at KP

[Frankie811]

For those who missed it, another projo reader responded to Ari's letter to the editor on Friday, December 2. The following are some excerpts from this letter.




"As a New Urbanist, Mr. Heckman would agree that fewer cars and more public transportation would be something to encourage, and the centrality of Kennedy Plaza achieves this. It is unfortunate that the Parks Department and the Business Improvement District cannot solve the jurisdictional issues regarding management of Burnside Park, but there is no reason that this space should not be returned to it's original purpose as a gathering place for civic and culteral events and repose."


"One thing that I agree with Mr. Heckman on is the idea of light rail or dedicated bus-ways. It is quite successful in St Louis, Seattle, Minneapolis, Los Angeles and other cities, and it's not too early to begin planning for it in Providence."



"If he feels his remarks may be taken as elitist, it may be that there is some truth to this. It is my feeling that the pioneering success of the conversion into lofts, apartments and condominiums that his company is developing, along with the number of new apartments and condominium towers in the Central Business District, speaks well of the future of providence."

[Sundodger]

Garris, on Nov 22 2005, 03:53 PM, said:

With all the flagrant church-state abuses and personal liberty violations that the wacko-right is dreaming up on a daily basis, this is an issue, with all the RI political murkiness that appears to be involved, that the ACLU wants to waste its resources on?

Hmm, from my experience, it is the left that is trying to force their will, religion, values, and take away liberty via govt., not the right.  These days it is the right that is way more liberal/libertarian than the left.

[Cotuit]

[KRC]

Sundodger, on Dec 5 2005, 01:34 PM, said:

Hmm, from my experience, it is the left that is trying to force their will, religion, values, and take away liberty via govt., not the right.  These days it is the right that is way more liberal/libertarian than the left.

[JJK5]

Cotuit, on Dec 5 2005, 12:50 PM, said:

KRC, on Dec 5 2005, 01:18 PM, said:

As someone who doesn't consider himself left or right, I do have this observation:

The left side tends to come off as much more arrogant than the right when it comes to those who don't have their view points.  I find that instead of couterpointing or educating someone on their view, they do things like what you two have done:  roll their eyes or laugh condescendingly.  Perhaps this attitude is what is hurting your party these days as it doesn't seem to me to be very inviting.

/just sayin'

[Garris]

Sundodger, on Dec 5 2005, 12:34 PM, said:

Hmm, from my experience, it is the left that is trying to force their will, religion, values, and take away liberty via govt., not the right.  These days it is the right that is way more liberal/libertarian than the left.

  You're kidding, right??

Are we living in the same country?  To JJK5, I'd be happy to educate as follows regarding the right and arrogance and forcing their views on the nation...

- The right happens to control the Presidency and both houses of Congress...
- The wholesale ignoring of the global warming issue (and most environmental issues) by the right...
- Tons of corruption in government right now (from accused aides in the White House to the discraced CA congressman taking bribes to the Tom DeLay accused to funneling 200 million illegally to Republican candidates)...
- The "intelligent design" issue...  Enough said...
- Historic levels of gerrymandering attempts to impart a permanent Republican majority, undermining the democratic process...
- The efforts to overturn abortion through Supreme Court nominees...
- The fact that, oh, dozens of American soldiers are dying monthly in Iraq in a war...
- Unheard of breakdowns between Church and State in everything from educational vouchers to looking the other way on employment discrimination...
- Some of the likely most egregious ignoring of human right abuses (with torture, secret prisons in Europe that the gov't has yet to deny exists, etc) in the history of the nation...

These are what I could think of in, oh, about 45 seconds off the top of my head...  I leave further "education" to others...  Good night and good luck...

- Garris

Edited by Garris, 05 December 2005 - 04:39 PM.

[Liamlunchtray]

Sundodger, on Dec 5 2005, 01:34 PM, said:

Hmm, from my experience, it is the left that is trying to force their will, religion, values, and take away liberty via govt., not the right.  These days it is the right that is way more liberal/libertarian than the left.

WTF??

I assume this is a joke?

The days of financially conservative small government repbulicans are long gone. These days its all about homophobia, misogyny, and "intelligent design" (Which near as I can tell translates to "We don't need no booklearnin") Good Times!

[JJK5]

Garris, on Dec 5 2005, 05:39 PM, said:

To JJK5, I'd be happy to educate as follows regarding the right and arrogance and forcing their views on the nation...

<snip>


These are what I could think of in, oh, about 45 seconds off the top of my head...  I leave further "education" to others...  Good night and good luck...

- Garris

I appreciate you taking the time to put that in writing and I certainly agree with you on some of those points as well as disagree on some.  At the risk of sparking a political flamewar I'll attempt to highlight some of my feelings on the issues you raised.

-On the Republicans controlling the legislature:  Each of those seats were won via an election, so while I can see how it could be disappointing for your party to be in the minority, you have to accept that this is how the population chose to vote.

-On an apparent disregard of the "Global Warming Problem":  There's growing support for a number of alternative theories with respect to Global Warming and whether or not it is a byproduct of man's admittedly poor treatment of the planet.  Some scientists cite Solar Variation and still others contest that there is insufficient information to prove a warming trend.  I could continue on with still more theories, (slow emergence from past ice age, etc.) but I think you get the idea.

-On Supreme Court nominations: It's clear you do not want Roe v. Wade overturned by appointing more conservative judges.   However, there's a case to be made that it was the judges that ruled over Roe v. Wade  who were legislating from the bench and a reversal would be appropriate if the case came before the court again (if judges were to do their job, i.e. simply interpret the constitution as it was written).

That's a few points I had time to touch on.  Most others I found myself in agreement with (ID, corruption, human rights abuses) or I hold a less cut and dry opinion on the issue and don't have time currently to write it concisely (Iraq war, educational vouchers).

Edited by JJK5, 05 December 2005 - 05:46 PM.

[gregw]

Agree 100% with Garris et al.

On another topic I found a long article in the New Yorker on Providence, the Brown Family, Brown University, Ruth Simmons, and the slave trade.

I couldn't find it online but the article, "Peculiar Institutions," by Frances Fitzgerald, appeared in the New Yorker issue of Sept. 12, 2005, pages 68-77.