305 replies to this topic

[dmccall]

Yes, the 9-10 number I posted previously was a generalization, or an extrapolation (whatever the right word is). They had talked last year about a 7-story building. The new site plan calls for 28% more units than previously discussed, however. Unless the building layout and/or unit sizes are very different, they would have to add floors to accomodate the new units. SO, the 9-10 number is very soft, and could be extremely off. Who knows at this point.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Jones133, on Oct 11 2006, 10:13 AM, said:

I am sure the condos are reserved...but like the article states, they have not been converted to contracts. This is how investors (especially realtors!!) jack up the prices of real estate downtown. They are all willing to bet the reservation fee that there are lots of people who want a "delux apartment in the sky".

All of RBC condo's reserved???

[JTsaysToYou]

DwnTwnRaleighGuy, on Oct 11 2006, 11:10 AM, said:

All of RBC condo's reserved???

[Transplant]

The Nash - Looks like this is going ahead.

7-Stories. Wish it could be bigger, but I'll take it  

[Jones133]

Transplant, on Dec 9 2006, 05:04 PM, said:

The Nash - Looks like this is going ahead.

7-Stories. Wish it could be bigger, but I'll take it  

Sounds like a pretty good project even if we are getting more of same bland 'contemporary' architecture. I really like the service road/alley. When the area north of Legends gets developed one day maybe this street/alley will punch all the way through the block. These service roads are important for keeping garbage, UPS/Fed-Ex and the like off of traveled roads....most of downtown suffers from lack of service alleys...

Edited by Jones133, 09 December 2006 - 04:56 PM.

[drewpiece]

"The Nash" is a crappy name, even if it is on Nash Square.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

drewpiece, on Dec 9 2006, 07:06 PM, said:

"The Nash" is a crappy name, even if it is on Nash Square.

Not creative, but very logical!

[plus2]

7 stories is a dissappointment.  This spot could really handle a lot more.  I know I don't have a say in this, but 15 stories with a couple of setbacks towards the Dawson would look great.

[carynative]

While it would have been nice to see more stories and height, it's good infill and will add residents plus streetlevel activity.  No matter how much we'd like it, not everything can (or should) be a 15 + story structure.

[Spatula]

carynative, on Dec 11 2006, 01:48 PM, said:

While it would have been nice to see more stories and height, it's good infill and will add residents plus streetlevel activity.  No matter how much we'd like it, not everything can (or should) be a 15 + story structure.

Heresy!

[pack-man]

better than the surface lot currently residing there.

[ncwebguy]

This project could get bigger...

Quote

Proposed floor area ratio (FAR) is 4.8 and lot coverage is 46.32% (not including the parking deck) and 71.35% (including the parking deck). A residential density of 120 units per acre is proposed. As this plan was submitted prior to the recent text change governing site plan approval standards for greater density allowances (TC-16-06), the applicants are allowed increases in residential densities in excess of 40 units per acre through the Downtown Overlay District.

Back of the napkin calculations say 40 add'l units/acre * 1.73 acres = 69 units.  Assuming the existing 208 units are on the top six floors, the 69 units would result in a nine story building!  Wow.  Additional parking could be added via another floor of the deck.  I like how it will be hidden by trellaces.

As it stands now, it has 208 dwelling units, 297 parking spaces (for residents only), and has 7,356 square feet of retail, mostly along Hargett headed toward the multi-modal transit hub.  It will also shield the parking deck lighting from the Dawson on Morgan residents.  The Dawson's parking lot buffers it from the Nash.

To get the service road to go all the way through the block, it will have to go through the existing "jut" created by the weird boundary of the Dawson.  I know they built it up during construction of the Dawson (and used to park there 6-7 years ago), but I don't know how the Dawson uses that space.

For the retail, they report that there is a fair amount of parking in the area already -- 297 spaces include 90 on-street, 175 spaces in three public lots (the north and south sides of Hargett between West and Harrington and ?),  and 122 spaces in the public portion of the Municipal Building’s deck.  Their calculations are off since to me that adds up to 387, not 297.  Maybe they consider the area around Nash Square a "lot" instead of on street, so the 90 is part of the 175?

With 35 units/floor, there should be a lot of small (~600 sq ft) one bedroom/flat units that could be affordable to "active" residents as opposed to empty nesters.  Residnets would more likely go out to eat, hang out, etc. adding more life to the warehouse district.

Also, the residents of Martin Place, Park Devaruex, The Nash, The Morgan on Dawson, the Raleigh, and the Quorum, the apartments and West Hargett townhouses by the Joel Lane House, and the Bloomsbury will be close to enough to justify a grocery store/market in this area.   Maybe something around the multi-modal station?

[plus2]

There are plenty of lots left for tall buildings, but this is the only spot left on Nash Square for a large residential development.  Nash Square is a perfect setting for heavy residential development.  I would bet the demand for space at this location (obviously depending on price) is huge!  The areas surrounding Moore Square and Nash Square are downtown's prime real-estate behind only Fayetteville St.  

It's true that not every building needs to be really tall, but we don't need to miss opportunities to get even more residents downtown, especially in what could be one of the most popular areas.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

plus2, on Dec 11 2006, 03:45 PM, said:

There are plenty of lots left for tall buildings, but this is the only spot left on Nash Square for a large residential development.  Nash Square is a perfect setting for heavy residential development.  I would bet the demand for space at this location (obviously depending on price) is huge!  The areas surrounding Moore Square and Nash Square are downtown's prime real-estate behind only Fayetteville St.  

It's true that not every building needs to be really tall, but we don't need to miss opportunities to get even more residents downtown, especially in what could be one of the most popular areas.

Totally agree!  

I love Plus2's idea, "This spot could really handle a lot more. I know I don't have a say in this, but 15 stories with a couple of setbacks towards the Dawson would look great." Maybe we need a developer with deeper pockets and more imagination?

[ChiefJoJo]

pack-man, on Dec 11 2006, 03:19 PM, said:

better than the surface lot currently residing there.

No doubt!

I know everyone wants a taller building but the developer must be able to justify his building under the current and near term marketplace for condos DT.  They will compete with 222 Glenwood, West at North, Bloomsbury, etc. for buyers, so they cannot overestimate the market, or nothing will be built.  This is much bigger than the Dawson BTW.  208 units on 1.73 acres is quite dense.  Baby steps...

On the density rules, I read the report like it's as dense as it will get, since the rules that govern at the time of submittal were different--ie, no grandfathering.  40 units/acre is std + 40 (loc) + 40 (deck) = 120.  That's what I make of it anyway.

Please post if you guys find the condo's marketing website--should be up somewhere soon I would think.

[AndrewJS]

As somebody who lives across the street, I'm happy to see this moving forward.  It's hard to complain about replacing a surface parking lot with a 7 story mixed use building!

[RaleighRob]

ChiefJoJo, on Dec 11 2006, 05:59 PM, said:

I know everyone wants a taller building but the developer must be able to justify his building under the current and near term marketplace for condos DT.  They will compete with 222 Glenwood, West at North, Bloomsbury, etc. for buyers, so they cannot overestimate the market, or nothing will be built.

True, although here's a "radical" idea---build a larger building, create as many condos as the marketplace will support, and then make the rest into market-rate rental apartments that people who can't afford condos will live in.  It's a win-win deal...make money from condo sales plus renting out apartments.  

I think no one here would argue that downtown doesn't need more apartments, especially at rental rates that normal working people (like me) can afford.  

[plus2]

RaleighRob, on Dec 11 2006, 09:32 PM, said:

True, although here's a "radical" idea---build a larger building, create as many condos as the marketplace will support, and then make the rest into market-rate rental apartments that people who can't afford condos will live in.  It's a win-win deal...make money from condo sales plus renting out apartments.  

I think no one here would argue that downtown doesn't need more apartments, especially at rental rates that normal working people (like me) can afford.  

Good idea!  You can always sell the apartments as condos at a later date.  I live in a former apartment, turned condo.

[urbanesq]

^^ I agree with everyone that it's both MUCH better than a surface parking lot, AND such a shame that the development doesn't include more units in a larger structure given that it's on such a landmark corner.  It's a real lost opportunity.

I also agree that the addition of apartments would be great, both from a residential density and affordability standpoint.  But I imagine that since the financing vehicles for condos and multi-family units are typically quite different, it would be exponentially harder for a developer to put together that type of deal.

Not that the developers have asked me, of course, but I always thought this would be the perfect location for a downtown lifestyle center:  a true mixed-use facility complete with more street-level retail (10K is not a lot of space), some office space or a business center (right across from City Hall would be a great spot for this), a small boutique hotel with a cafe, restaurant, and gym/spa, so apartment and condo residents could have access to concierge services, an on-site health club, etc.  That type of development would, I think, work really well adjacent to the park, and also so benefit from being close to the warehouse district and the clubs on Hargett St.

Oh, well.   7-stories of condos with street-level retail it is.  And that itself is great infill.  So it's still good news.

[ncwebguy]

Register.com says TheNashRaleigh.com and TheNashonHargett.com are both available...

A part rental-part condo building would be *very* difficult to get financed.  A pure condo building will be sold, so the developer doesn't own anything after construction.  A pure apartment building is financed against future rental income, and can be sold to a real estate trust that will trade cash for monthly income.

Condo buyers will pay less for a unit if their neighbors are renters who have less invested in keeping the rest of the building happy.  In a condo/apartment mix, if several units go unsold and unrented, the mortgage company won't be happy owning part of a building.

Most of the south side of Nash Square along Marin Street could be redeveloped.  The Berkley Cafe building and the southeast Martin/Dawson corner are ok, but even the latter isn't worth preserving from a historic perspective.  The parking lot/print shop building could go, and the lots there are deep -- see the Berkley back porch.  The Martin/McDowell corner's former gas station could make room for a residential midrise as well.

And the N&O will do something with their land eventually.  Eventually they will get out of their offices and realize downtown is revitalizing around them.