29 replies to this topic

[Garris]

cmj2k5, on Oct 2 2005, 05:39 PM, said:

Are rochester and st cloud doing anything to stop the virus-like sprawl across the countryside?    Or are they die hard suburban?

I can't speak for St. Cloud, but Rochester's residents can't get enough of it.  The core is rapidly emptying for the "countryside."  The most aspirational living in Rochester is a new 4 bedroom, 2 bath, 3 garage colonial (that looks like all the others on the street) for $250,000 near to the new Super-Walmart, Appleby's, and Blockbuster.  If you're really lucky, you get one near your new mega-church and within quick driving distance of the pocket park with the swingset down the street.

No, Rochester residents have been killing downtown rejuvenation projects for years.  There's absolutely zero enthusiasm for anything urban in Rochester.  Folks there would say that if they had a desire for those things, they'd just take a day trip up to the Twin Cities.  If I heard another person living in a new suburban Rochester development say that they didn't like going downtown because it's "too city" (this is a downtown of 5-6 square blocks, and one with no one living there and one with no underclass or "hood") I was going to commit myself to a psych ward.  Instead, I left...

- Garris
Providence, RI

Edited by Garris, 02 October 2005 - 07:59 PM.

[FSUViking9]

Well, there's not nobody living downtown. Lots of senior condos.

Actually, you have the 30 story Broadway Plaza condo tower, and another big project being planned along the river, by the Holiday Inn City Center. The Galleria is under rejuvination as well.

But, you have to put it in persepective. Rochester is all about Mayo. They own everything downtown, and thus everything operates on Mayo's hour's. Shops, restaruants, etc. From sun-up to sundown, Monday through Friday, downtown is quite a bustling place. But again, there's a reason for it.

Yeah, Rochester is a big suburb, but clearly something works, because it's growing like crazy, with no signs of slowing down. In 1990 it had about 57,000 people. Now, it's raced past Bloomington and Duluth, to become the state's thrd largest city with about 92,000 people.

It's a family oriented community, but they are aware of the fact that the age group of 15-30, really has trouble staying there. They are, however slowly, working on addressing that.

[Garris]

FSUViking9, on Oct 3 2005, 06:27 AM, said:

Well, there's not nobody living downtown. Lots of senior condos.

Actually, you have the 30 story Broadway Plaza condo tower, and another big project being planned along the river, by the Holiday Inn City Center. The Galleria is under rejuvination as well.

One of the things Mayo quietly advertises to men (seriously) is that the city has a 3:1 female to male ratio.  It's not until you get there that you learn that the ratio is due to all the women in nursing homes and assisted living facilities that have outlived men!!  

The Broadway Plaza was never targeted towards the community at large.  It's all about visiting patients there for an extended period (especially Middle Eastern Arab patients).  The building was bankrolled by a Middle Eastern group, and with its costs (starting at what, like $2500-$3000 per month rent), not many locals are going to be calling it home...

I'm interested to hear about the river project and the Galleria rejuvination, both of which must have been announced since I left.  

FSUViking9, on Oct 3 2005, 06:27 AM, said:

But, you have to put it in persepective. Rochester is all about Mayo. They own everything downtown, and thus everything operates on Mayo's hour's. Shops, restaruants, etc. From sun-up to sundown, Monday through Friday, downtown is quite a bustling place. But again, there's a reason for it.

This is both the blessing (stability and growth) and curse (sidewalks roll up at 4:30 PM).

FSUViking9, on Oct 3 2005, 06:27 AM, said:

Yeah, Rochester is a big suburb, but clearly something works, because it's growing like crazy, with no signs of slowing down. In 1990 it had about 57,000 people. Now, it's raced past Bloomington and Duluth, to become the state's thrd largest city with about 92,000 people.

It's a family oriented community, but they are aware of the fact that the age group of 15-30, really has trouble staying there. They are, however slowly, working on addressing that.[/color]

There's no doubt it's growing like mad.  I just wish the "city" were more of one, and more "urban."  It's basically just a big, bland suburb now.  Rochester looks like any other Minnesota suburb now...  Drive through any of them, Edina to Rochester to Bloomington to Mendota Heights to Faribault to Owatonna...  The only thing that distinguishes Rochester anymore is that Mayo sits in the center...  It's kind of sad...

I don't mean to sound harsh, but Mayo really sells the city to perspective employees as something that it's really not.  I bought the sell and worked there, but I eventually just had to escape.  While Mayo is phenomenal (the best medical center in the US by far, in my opinion), I want people reading this just to know what exactly they're considering, not what they might be reading in the Mayo or Rochester literature...

Oh, and the funny thing is that Mayo is fully aware of the city's deficiencies and oddly don't act on them.  Trust me, I know that Mayo, despite extremely generous benefits package and salaries, often has difficulty recruiting from larger metros.  I met people they were chasing from NY, Philly, LA, etc who looked at Rochester and said, "Wow, you could never bring me here..."  They really could use their largess to attract more arts, restaurants, activities, etc, but just don't...  That conservative streak is just too strong...

- Garris
Providence, RI

[sushisimo]

cmj2k5, on Oct 2 2005, 06:39 PM, said:

Are rochester and st cloud doing anything to stop the virus-like sprawl across the countryside?    Or are they die hard suburban?

Garris seems to have done a great job explaining Rochester, and I can only comment a tiny bit on Saint Cloud. And it echo's Garris's comments. St. Cloud just seems to love sprawl and chain stores! Maybe I'm wrong, but it sure seems to me St. Cloud has forgone their central business district in favor of the Division Street strip going westward into Waite Park.

And at least Rochester seems a bit higher class, whereas Saint Cloud has the double-whammy of being bland AND seemingly white trashy, IMO. And the drivers are horrid there!

[cmj2k5]

Quote

I can't speak for St. Cloud, but Rochester's residents can't get enough of it. The core is rapidly emptying for the "countryside." The most aspirational living in Rochester is a new 4 bedroom, 2 bath, 3 garage colonial (that looks like all the others on the street) for $250,000 near to the new Super-Walmart, Appleby's, and Blockbuster. If you're really lucky, you get one near your new mega-church and within quick driving distance of the pocket park with the swingset down the street.

I know...   its rediculous.   The cooporate world is shaping these people in to exactly what they want.


If I stick to my urban planning major I'm going to be all against sprawl.   Why can't people have any originality....  or common sense.

[MrSmith]

cmj2k5, on Oct 3 2005, 12:04 PM, said:

I know...   its rediculous.   The cooporate world is shaping these people in to exactly what they want.
If I stick to my urban planning major I'm going to be all against sprawl.   Why can't people have any originality....  or common sense.

I don't think it is the corporate world that is shapping people to want houses.  I think our history is so closely tied with the land and owning land.  Heck, this country originally tied the right to vote to owning land.   The government encouraged people to go farther West and gave away land.  It has been the American dream for two-centuries.  People have just never really gotten away from this way of thinking.

I live in a downtown brownstone and all the time I hear from people that they wouldn't like it because i am too close to my neighbors or that they would miss their yard.  The reality is that because I don't have my own yard I see my neighbors less than when i lived in a house.  And, instead of a yard I have a park just a block away --and i don't have to mow it

[sushisimo]

MrSmith, on Oct 3 2005, 12:41 PM, said:

I think our history is so closely tied with the land and owning land.  People have just never really gotten away from this way of thinking.

That's true. And there almost seems to be fear and paranoia along with it sometimes. As if to say, this MINE, and stay off it. I also live downtown, in a high density condo complex and I don't feel intruded upon or confined at all. Like Mr. Smith mentioned, I feel the other way most of the time. And when I want some outdoors and neighborly social interaction, I just go to our common grounds area and crack open a few beers. And no worries about lawns and neighbor kids kicking a soccer ball through my window.

[Garris]

MrSmith, on Oct 3 2005, 11:41 AM, said:

I live in a downtown brownstone and all the time I hear from people that they wouldn't like it because i am too close to my neighbors or that they would miss their yard.  The reality is that because I don't have my own yard I see my neighbors less than when i lived in a house.  And, instead of a yard I have a park just a block away --and i don't have to mow it

I live in the same scenario in Providence, in an urban townhouse in two buildings with a central courtyard, each with about 7 rowhouses.  I now have 13 neighbors and I know them all far, far better then my family ever knew anyone in the suburban neighborhood where I grew up.  

And the lawns...  Besides mowing them (which most people here don't do, they hire someone to do it), what do most people do with them?  I mean, really?  I see suburban tracts here with these enormous lawns...  I think it's got to be a status thing, feeling like the "landed" gentry.  Sure, it's nice for kids to play in, and I have nice memories of playing in my lawn growing up, but families in Providence do those same activities in parks.  

MrSmith, on Oct 3 2005, 11:41 AM, said:

I don't think it is the corporate world that is shapping people to want houses.  I think our history is so closely tied with the land and owning land.  Heck, this country originally tied the right to vote to owning land.   The government encouraged people to go farther West and gave away land.  It has been the American dream for two-centuries.  People have just never really gotten away from this way of thinking.

I don't think it's the corporate world (at least not exclusively).  It's multifactorial, a combo of corporate influence, government policy, economics, and racial/social influences.  These have all combined to create a nearly 60 year social "assumption" since WWII that moving farther out and into a more suburban existence means "moving up" in the world.  

Also, economics play a role.  For 60 years, because of cheap land and cheap gas, the farther out you move into new developments, the more you usually get for your money.  Bigger house, more land, more garage spaces, bigger lawns.  Americans love any value that gives them more stuff for less money.  The supersizing of housing.

That's certainly why my parents during the 60's moved from urban NY "way out" 60 miles north into the "country" (now a suburb).  They could never remotely have afforded, fresh out of college with what they were making at the time, to build a home on Long Island or in Lower Westchester, but they could farther North in Putnam.  Today, that house, now considered to be in the "core" suburb ring, is worth well over half a million dollars.  Despite my having a very good income in a far, far higher socioeconomic group equivalent than my parents were in at the same age, I could never afford my childhood home right now that they built at an age younger than I am now.

The same is true in Rochester.  A 1915 bungalow with 2 beds and 1 bath with 1 garage downtown is virtually the same cost as a bland sprawl development 20 minutes outside of town with 4 bedrooms, 3 car garage, and a large lawn (and no upkeep costs on the old house).  

I hate, hate, hate sprawl, but until policy, gas costs, land costs, etc make the argument to move farther out more expensive than staying closer by (which only gas costs or anti-sprawl policy have the potential to do), until people stop wanting a bargain, or until people start finding spawl living stupifyingly boring, we're all stuck...  It sucks...

- Garris
Providence, RI

[MrSmith]

In Minneapolis we are seeing a huge flood back into the city --especially downtown --which now has more residents than it's high in 1958.  I think in part, it is because they have stopped expanding roads and the city has just about sprawled as far as it can.  Add to that, the fact that fuel prices are going up and i think the shift will just increase.  In fact our LRT line has been open 1 year and ridership is 65% above the projected amount.  In addition in the last few months bus ridership has been increasing.  The only thing holding lots of people back from moving to the city is the unfounded fear of urban schools --with charter schools and an open district policy, however, that may no longer be as much of an issue.

[Garris]

MrSmith, on Oct 4 2005, 02:31 PM, said:

In Minneapolis ... I think in part, it is because they have stopped expanding roads and the city has just about sprawled as far as it can.

Yes, until they start implementing commuter rail, I think the Minneapolis suburbs have sprawled about as far as possible...  It's statistically one of the worst sprawled suburbs in the US...

MrSmith, on Oct 4 2005, 02:31 PM, said:

In fact our LRT line has been open 1 year and ridership is 65% above the projected amount.  In addition in the last few months bus ridership has been increasing.

I'm hugely glad to hear that.  Many Republicans in MN (for whom "mass transit" is a code phase for minority, poor, or immigrant) were predicting it would be a huge boondoggle that that no one would use.  I'm glad to see the citizenry proved them wrong!

I used the LRT during a long layover at MSP recently, and I thought it was wonderful.  How did the city live without it?

- Garris
Providence, RI

Edited by Garris, 05 October 2005 - 09:46 AM.