257 replies to this topic

[krazeeboi]

Robtex, I understand where you're coming from. But to be honest, and as has been stated on other threads here, differences between states usually shake down to differences between major metropolitan areas within those states. In many cases, the stark differences between states are usually attributed to the condition of the rural areas therein. That said, even though NC may be ahead of SC in terms of, say, average income, if you took Charlotte and the Triangle out of the equation, NC doesn't look like anything special. While Greensboro is a nice city in its own right, the Triad metropolitan area doesn't have as much momentum as Charlotte and the Triangle and is quite comparable to the Upstate in several ways; as a matter of fact, I would argue that the Upstate has a leg up on the Triad in some ways.

Even though the state of Alabama is very similar to SC in certain respects (such as the categories you mentioned in your previous post, save annexation laws), I find it impressive that Birmingham civic leaders have toured Greenville to get some ideas, simply due to Birmingham being a much larger and more historically important city in the South than Greenville; me being impressed has nothing to do with the fact that Birmingham is located in Alabama, a state that is not "so very far of SC in so many ways." I also find it somewhat impressive that Raleigh's leaders would visit Greenville, especially given the fact that Raleigh is maybe about twice the size of Greenville (maybe give or take a few thousand) and is an economic powerhouse within its state (I said "somewhat" impressed because Raleigh seems to be a very suburban-minded city); however, the other NC cities (Greensboro, Winston-Salem, Durham) that have visited or are planning to visit Greenville aren't really light-years ahead of Greenville in any significant ways, if ahead at all. So while SC as a whole doesn't tend to look too good on paper, our major cities (Greenville, Charleston, and Columbia) are VERY much on par with our Southern peers, and they could stand to learn a thing our two from us in some respects, despite our shortcomings as a state. Our "poor little state" has more things going for it than many, including natives and residents, give it credit for.

Edited by krazeeboi, 04 October 2005 - 12:02 AM.

[Skyliner]

Spartan, on Oct 4 2005, 01:06 AM, said:

True, but they still have to tack SC onto Greenville on TWC to avoid confusion...

Naturally.  I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Skyliner]

This whole crazy "debate" comes back to the fact that a group of people did something(s) right in Greenville and now other groups of people want to learn what that was because they're not doing the same right thing(s).  No matter what your inside or outside view of Greenville as a positive status symbol, it is what it is, and that is a great role model for many another city.  These articles and columns are not written by story writers after sitting at home reading all they can find on the Internet about Greenville, but rather those who've gotten off their tushes and breathed the open air and walked the delightfully scented sidewalks to the shops, cafes, galleries, parks, theatres, etc.  No one paid them off to print those words of adoration.  They were as sincere as the very words you'd hear from any random pedestrian on the street from another far-off place -- if you had gotten out to listen.

[gsupstate]

Skyliner, on Oct 4 2005, 01:15 AM, said:

This whole crazy "debate" comes back to the fact that a group of people did something(s) right in Greenville and now other groups of people want to learn what that was because they're not doing the same right thing(s).  No matter what your inside or outside view of Greenville as a positive status symbol, it is what it is, and that is a great role model for many another city.  These articles and columns are not written by story writers after sitting at home reading all they can find on the Internet about Greenville, but rather those who've gotten off their tushes and breathed the open air and walked the delightfully scented sidewalks to the shops, cafes, galleries, parks, theatres, etc.  No one paid them off to print those words of adoration.  They were as sincere as the very words you'd hear from any random pedestrian from another far-off place -- if you had gotten out to listen.

Well said Skyliner!  

When a city has adoration (as Skyliner said), enthusiasm, energy, and active, caring citizens, that's where it gets good!  A city that can evoke passion and emotion in it's citizens....WOW.....thats a far greater thing than statistics.  These are intangibles that can't be bought or built on a street corner.  These are core values and attitudes that make a city great!  Not every city is lucky enough to have these intangibles.  Thankfully, Greenville has them!  

[EDPro]

krazeeboi, on Oct 4 2005, 01:20 AM, said:

simply due to Birmingham being a much larger and more historically important city in the South than Greenville;

Just fwiw:
Gross Metro Product (US ranking, 2004):

67. Birmingham, AL, $35B
68. Dayton-Springfield, OH, $33.4B
69. Syracuse, NY $33.3B
70. Greenville-Spartanburg $32.3
71. Fresno, CA $31.3B

(I understand your comparison was/is city to city, but metro to metro and they are very similar)

For more:
http://www.usmayors....tables_1004.xls

[krazeeboi]

Skyliner, on Oct 4 2005, 02:15 AM, said:

This whole crazy "debate" comes back to the fact that a group of people did something(s) right in Greenville and now other groups of people want to learn what that was because they're not doing the same right thing(s).  No matter what your inside or outside view of Greenville as a positive status symbol, it is what it is, and that is a great role model for many another city.  These articles and columns are not written by story writers after sitting at home reading all they can find on the Internet about Greenville, but rather those who've gotten off their tushes and breathed the open air and walked the delightfully scented sidewalks to the shops, cafes, galleries, parks, theatres, etc.  No one paid them off to print those words of adoration.  They were as sincere as the very words you'd hear from any random pedestrian from another far-off place -- if you had gotten out to listen.

Hey now, I'm sticking up for Greenville!  

My whole point in my last post was that Greenville's success is local; the state of South Carolina had little, if any, to do with it. The city put in the hard work, now it's reaping the benefits.

[Greenville]

Is Raleigh really almost twice as big as Greenville?  It sure doesn't feel like it when I've been through Raleigh.  I suppose it has to be a fairly big metro to have an NHL team, but their downtown isn't nearly what Greenville's is.  Even in terms of hotels and restaurants, Greenville seems to be ahead of Raleigh.

And there is no doubt in my mind we are ahead of Durham.  That city has never impressed me, and the last time I was there the place was dead.  It feels a lot smaller than Greenville population-wise as well.

[krazeeboi]

In 2000, Greenville's urbanized area population was ~300,000, while Raleigh's was ~550,000, and the Triangle metropolitan area has been growing at a pretty fast pace. Durham's UA population was slightly smaller than Greenville's in 2000. Greenville's closest competitor size-wise would be Winston-Salem, as there was a UA population difference of only about 1,500-2,000 people between the two cities.

[Skyliner]

2000 is age-old history now.  The day those statistics became available was the day the City of Greenville began an all-stops-pulled campaign to bring residents back into the urban core.  So far it has been tremendously successful.  One can only believe that will continue with plans for more and more high density units.  You'd need to be here to fully understand what I mean.

gsupstate, on Oct 4 2005, 07:45 AM, said:

Well said Skyliner!  

When a city has adoration (as Skyliner said), enthusiasm, energy, and active, caring citizens, that's where it gets good!  A city that can evoke passion and emotion in it's citizens....WOW.....thats a far greater thing than statistics.  These are intangibles that can't be bought or built on a street corner.  These are core values and attitudes that make a city great!  Not every city is lucky enough to have these intangibles.  Thankfully, Greenville has them!  

Thanks, gsupstate.  I had to edit my post a couple of times to tame it down.  Your words are also very well spoken.

[krazeeboi]

Unfortunately, urban area statistics are only published in the same  years as the official census numbers, so that's all I have to go by. Yes Greenville has certainly begun to bring people back downtown, but do you honestly believe Raleigh has been sleeping the whole time? While a lot of their growth is sprawl, that area HAS been growing, and its high rankings in many areas nationally hasn't hurt the area either. As a matter of fact, Wake County experienced a 10.8% increase in population between 2000-2003, while Greenville County only experienced less than half that figure during that same time period, at 4.1%.

It's good to have hometown pride and everything, but let that pride be grounded in reality.

[Skyliner]

I wasn't comparing Greenville with Raleigh (don't like these A vs. B arguments anyway).  That would have been, uh, you. The cool thing is that you can say all you want from your little corner out there, but I live and work here and have a much better understanding of Greenville than you.  Numbers are good for talk on this forum, but actually living in the place you love is far better than going around telling people why their "heaven on earth" isn't everything they see it as.  Perhaps this is from an inferiority complex?  I don't care.  I am fully aware of how this city ranks in comparison to many others.  What I see is a top-quality place to live, work, play, eat, sleep, shop, and raise a family.  And we enjoy having visitors everyday.

[krazeeboi]

I wasn't comparing Greenville with Raleigh (don't like these A vs. B arguments anyway).  That would have been, uh, you.

Forumer Greenville said in post #27 in this thread:

Quote

Is Raleigh really almost twice as big as Greenville? It sure doesn't feel like it when I've been through Raleigh. I suppose it has to be a fairly big metro to have an NHL team, but their downtown isn't nearly what Greenville's is. Even in terms of hotels and restaurants, Greenville seems to be ahead of Raleigh.

Care to follow up with another baseless accusation because you feel as though I'm "bashing" Greenville when I have done nothing but praise the city for its accomplishments?

The cool thing is that you can say all you want from your little corner out there, but I live and work here and have a much better understanding of Greenville than you.

OK, and what is the point here? I live in a metropolitan area more than twice the size of Greenville's; so much for a "little corner." And why are you attempting to make enemies among friends?

Numbers are good for talk on this forum, but actually living in the place you love is far better than going around telling people why their "heaven on earth" isn't everything they see it as.

Statistics aren't used for the sake of using them; they give us information. The bottom line is that Raleigh is somewhere around twice the size of Greenville. Why do you feel threatened by this information? It says nothing about the actual livability of either place, and this is an area in which Greenville excels. So why the insecurity dude?

Perhaps this is from an inferiority complex?  I don't care.

Again, I live in a metropolitan area more than twice the size of Greenville's. Furthermore, if one derives an inferiority complex from the place in which he/she lives, then that person has a problem.

I am fully aware of how this city ranks in comparison to many others.

If that were the case, it seems as though you would know that the latest UA figures are from 2000 and wouldn't try to put me on blast for using such "old news" statistics.

What I see is a top-quality place to live, work, play, eat, sleep, shop, and raise a family.  And we enjoy having visitors everyday.

And I see the same thing, even from my "little corner." I am a fan of Greenville; I even brag about the city among my peers. It's a great city, one that I could certainly imagine myself living in. So, for the umpteenth time, what's the beef?

[ROBTEX]

You guys truly are a trip!! Passion is a GREAT virtue, and you guys certainly have TONS of it! I'm just glad that the common thread in all of this is the fact that we all recognize Greenville as a great little city...one that never ceases to impress. Greenville certainly isn't the only city in the South experiencing a wonderful renaissance, but it is indeed very exciting and satisfying that so many other cities look to Greenville as a role model. The state of South Carolina looks at other states and cities as role models, which is very smart, but look at Greenville being the SC city that other states and cities look to as a role model!

[Skyliner]

~Who I Am~
I view present-day Greenville and its future in a far more optimistic manner than many others do.
I see the potential and the plans being laid out to ensure that it will become successful in many more ways.
I have a tremendous interest in helping make this happen.
I work hard everyday to advance this shared vision.
~Skyliner~
B)

[krazeeboi]

Great conclusion to the matter.

[gsupstate]

Good link below from the Greensboro newspaper about their visit to Greenville.  Greenville received all the accolades and superlatives expected....."gem of a downtown", Greensboro leaders were "wowed" by Greenville, etc.

The interesting part though is that  the article had readers opinions and several readers were not hip on the idea that Greensboro has visited other cities.  One even refered to cities with great downtowns as "gated communities for the rich".  I was sort of shocked at the lack of enthusiasm the Greensboro readers seemed to show.

http://www.news-reco...013/NEWSREC0202

[motonenterprises]

Wow these people really don't know much about Greenville. One mentioned Greenville being a little Burg. Isn't Greenville's UA larger than Greensboro? I have been to downtown Greensboro and it could use improvement.

[krazeeboi]

This is the point I brought up earlier in this thread. Some of those folks are probably like, "What can a city around 200,000 learn from another city just barely over 50,000?" Of course, Greenville's UA is larger than Greensboro's, but thanks to our restrictive annexation laws, people wouldn't know that both cities are in the same league.

[Greenville]

So we're a "little burg," huh?  Nice.  Perhaps that reader should do some research before he judges a city that is light years ahead of his own in terms of development, business, quality of life, etc.

[NYTransplant]

Greenville, on Oct 8 2005, 12:28 AM, said:

So we're a "little burg," huh?  Nice.  Perhaps that reader should do some research before he judges a city that is light years ahead of his own in terms of development, business, quality of life, etc.

C'mon Greenville, give 'em a break.  They've got the finest miniature-golf facilities on the Eastern Seaboard.