886 replies to this topic

[Tayfromcarolina]

Yes $2.10 sounds cheap. Due to the powers that be lasts years $1.75 around this time seems to be all but forgotten.

It's a consipiracy I tell you. I might have to look into taking the train to Charlotte from Raleigh now that it is so timely.

[monsoon]

This article (use bugmenot.com) is a rather interesting one concerning Amtrak.  I wonder what long term implications this will have for the NCRR component of the instate rail service?

[JunktionFET]

monsoon, on Oct 22 2005, 02:28 PM, said:

This article (use bugmenot.com) is a rather interesting one concerning Amtrak.  I wonder what long term implications this will have for the NCRR component of the instate rail service?

The whole Amtrak story is confusing to me, and is even more confusing when you throw in the story by the Bush Administration (which isn't surprising).

I don't see how the 50/50 funding deal proposed by the administration is supposed to work. I assume this means that the federal government matches whatever funds NC throws at passenger rail. But does NC just need to continue subsidizing our own rail service, like they have been, and the feds reciprocate with money and Amtrak service, or just the money?

It seems that this question has really not been answered in micro-detail, and the administration's effort is more of a conceptual sales pitch to drum up support for something that, in the end, guts passenger rail in the US.

If Amtrak goes away, NC would definitely have to turn the operation of the trains over to an in-state rail transit authority... or perhaps a multistate authority shared with VA and MD (or others...).

NCART (North Carolina Authority for Rail Transit) or DELMARVANCART come to mind...

[transitman]

The Amtrak Board is all Bush appointees.  As movement conservatives, their primary goal is to destroy Amtrak as quickly as possible.  David Gunn, the Amtrak President, largely accomplishes anything despite their meddling.  In general, the federal matching grant program is a good idea, because it makes rail investment more predictable and less political.  In effect, rail investment becomes more like highway, bike/ped or transit investment.  

That said, Amtrak could stand some reforms.  The most promising bill to come down the pike in some time is the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act of 2005, or PRIIA 2005.  Some information is below.

A good layman's description can be found at Trent Lott's (sponsor) PRIIA Page:
http://lott.senate.g...sRelease_id=163

The More Official Version
http://www.cbo.gov/s...6676&sequence=0

This is as good as it gets for rail in the US, and if you are pro-rail, I also suggest reading NARP's page on this important bill.  
http://www.narprail....es/more/s_1516/

But better yet, this bill is GREAT for rail in NC.  Why?  It opens up a federal partner to fund rail infrastructure.  Outside of the Northeast Corridor, only CA, OR, WA (pacific coast states) and Illinois are in as good as shape as NC to receive rail investment.  PRIIA provides a 50% match for improvements to rail infrastructure that have a state funding component and are part of a rail plan and have appropriate environmental documentation, etc.  Not many states have rail plans.  NC does.  

The NCRR mainline, SEHSR project (the S-line and Winston-Salem connections), and the Asheville/Wilmington extensions may also be eligible.  Like the other federal transport programs, this 50% match fund is for capital, and not operational costs.  The states are supposed to pick up operations.  This is fine- NCDOT is already doing this, and the Carolinian/Piedmont are close to breaking even as is.  With increasing speeds, they may even soon take in more money than is spent on operations.  

Allowing for the contracting of operations out is not a big deal- this is done all the time with bus services and other commuter rail operations.  Also, if the freights (NS has had some change of heart recently on passenger operations) could then have these contracts as a moneymaker with incentives for on-time performance and safety standards, I don't see that this is a bad idea.  

Here's the key for NC from my point of view.  We have a list of improvements to be made in the Raleigh-Charlotte corridor that will take until 2009 to complete because of funding availability.  Wouldn't it be nice to accomplish those in half the time with a 50% federal match?  Not to mention see a 2 hour 50 minute RGH-CLT train which will be FASTER than driving?

[dubone]

thanks for the interpretation/application to our situation in NC.  that makes me much more happy about this legislation.  

frankly, i think medium-haul rail trips are much more practical and efficient. and those the ones that the states will invest in.  some of the extremely long routes that amtrak does are highly inefficient and with the possible exception of the auto-rail route from DC to florida... i doubt many people ride them the whole way.  

NC's plans and investments in rail will go a long way to keeping us connected to the larger cities north and south of us as we grow.

[transitman]

Yeah, I'm in the camp that wants better rail in the 100-500 mile journey distances.  There are a lot of pro-rail folks who want to save the long distance routes or not make any changes to Amtrak, but my opinion is that they are condemning the US to a future of poor rail service in general.

We should NOT have a train from Orlando to Vegas.  It just makes no sense.  Fortunately, even the long-distance routes through NC are some of the better performers (Silver Service, Palmetto, etc) in terms of cost recovery.  

The challenge to the PRIIA legislation is that a lot of states' congresspeople/senators are from states that

1.  only have long distance service
2.  pay nothing for it
3.  are only willing to support Amtrak under those circumstances

The "starve the beast" conservatives want to end rail service, period.  

The two coastal megalopolises are ready to invest in rail.  However, up until now, they have only been able to win support for any rail service by making common cause with the "national or nothing" crowd that supports items 1-3 above.

This has lead to continual support for rail, but at a level that could best be described as "anemic" and unable to reach for the future.

PRIIA is the best option we've had in years to move beyond this stalemate.  It forces some cost-cutting on the long-distance routes, but does not make draconian route eliminations across the country.  However, it makes it hard to expand long distance routes, which conservatives like.  THe handful of states ready to invest are waiting to step up for capital funds, and NC is probably among the top ten states likely to receive funding.

[monsoon]

Transitman, that was well said and I agree with you 100%.

[charlotte_bon_vivant]

monsoon, on Oct 29 2005, 10:24 AM, said:

I'm not sure what that means, but the bottom line is this.  USAir still has a monopoly in Charlotte which means we will continue to pay the highest prices for airtravel (by far) of any city in the USA.   Low cost does not mean Low Fare.

I believe air fares in Charlotte are the seventh highest in the nation. That's not great, but prices are improving. I admit I was shocked when I moved here and had to fly out of Charlotte for the first time. It was actually cheaper for me to drive (or even fly) to Atlanta and take another flight from there. Memphis was cheaper, too.

Re: the rail line from Charlotte to Macon. I asked about this in the Atlanta forum several months ago. IIRC, it's a part of a multi-state rail that would connect major cities in the SE. NC, SC, GA and TN were the most interested in the rail line. I love the idea of it. A 1-2 hour trip from Charlotte to Atlanta? That would completely change the south and its economy. Anyway, they've been discussing it since the 90s. I think the first proposed map was released in 2002. I haven't really heard much since then. They do have an official site. I'll try to find it.

Oh, my point about the rail is that it would have a HUGE impact on airlines prices and the viability of the companies involved.

[monsoon]

Girly, the only site that I know for that rail line is the Southeast High Speed Rail site.   If you can find another that would be great.   As far as I know, there isn't a plan to run any highspeed rail into TN.  

In 2002 the Fed's designated highspeed rail corridors in the USA.   While the map has a 2005 date on it, most of the work has been gutted by the Bush Administration.   The only line that I am aware of where there is active work is the Charlotte to DC segment.  The reason for this is that NC & VA is paying for the work.  

[charlotte_bon_vivant]

Metro, I think that may be the updated version of the site. Like I said, I last saw it in 2002. It was on a .gov site, but all they had was the map of proposed lines and about a thousand PDFs of meeting notes. Someone else told me the plan was discontinued, so I'm happy to see it's still on track. Thanks!

[dubone]

girly, there was a bill that senator lautenburg pushed that i think was designed to fund high speed train routes as seen on the map above.  It a few years ago.  His website used to have a great deal of details on the bill, and that is likely what you saw.  The bill never moved forward, and when Lautenburg retired, it was seen as dead.  

Lautenburg, however, is now back in the senate... and he is now a cosponsor on the Lott's bill, which is a bit more a conservative slant, but retains investments in high speed corridors.  

The South East corridor from DC to Charlotte is the furthest along of the HSR routes, and the extension from Charlotte to Macon is coming along well as a future phase.
http://www.sehsr.org...T-MACstudy.html

[orulz]

Couple things. First: check out Amtrak's Weekly Specials - the Carolinian is listed as "up to 70% off." It may be 70% off for certain city pairs, but for travel within NC it seems to be running at about a 50% discount. That means a Charlotte-Raleigh round trip for $20. Holy Cheapness!

Second, there are a few other places where state-funded rail improvements are actively taking place. In Michigan, for example, a new signal system was recently installed on the line between Chicago and Detroit, and trains travel at 95mph (with 110mph coming in a year or two). This is a bit of a special case, though, because the tracks are owned by Amtrak and the project was funded jointly by Amtrak, the FRA, and the state of Michigan. There is also a long-standing plan still in the "testing" phase to get trains up to 110mph between Chicago and Springfield. And then there's California, of course, which is essentially a country of its own when it comes to passenger rail.

[monsoon]

There is a pretty good article in today's Observer about the state of the NC passenger railroad.  

Some of the highlights.  

- Average speed is 63 mph, up from 45 mph 5 years ago.
- The midday train may be operating by 2008.  
- News about the NCDOT beginning work soon on the downtown Charlotte train station.

There is also a side box indicating that Senate bill 1516 will affect the highspeed rail project to DC.

[JunktionFET]

monsoon, on Nov 5 2005, 11:12 AM, said:

There is a pretty good article in today's Observer about the state of the NC passenger railroad.  

Some of the highlights.  

- Average speed is 63 mph, up from 45 mph 5 years ago.
- The midday train may be operating by 2008.  
- News about the NCDOT beginning work soon on the downtown Charlotte train station.

There is also a side box indicating that Senate bill 1516 will affect the highspeed rail project to DC.

Sweet, the midday Piedmont will be a welcome addition for sure. I'm also stoked about the Charlotte-DC high speed rail project too of course. I hope the article is accurate in its claim of HSR service within a decade.

[transitman]

HSR is still a concept (a well-studied one, though) without funding.  If you want to bring HSR to NC, call Elizabeth Dole and Richard Burr and thank them for voting in support of S. 1516 this past week, and then start working on your representatives to support it in the House.

A midday Piedmont would be fantastic, and would certainly entice me to travel by rail more often.  Heck, I'd take 1/2-day trips to Greensboro/Salisbury on Saturdays if I could get my bike onboard.  (I hear that this may be possible after Thanksgiving)

However, a reliable connection to DC and the Northeast would really be something.  My family lives near Boston, and there are so many places to go along the Northeast Corridor (NEC), that I think I'd begin using that all the time.  

That's why the HSR corridor is so important.

[monsoon]

I read through that Senate bill and it is quite interesting.   It provides a provision for funding capital costs related to state run rail networks, and it will cover 80% of the cost.   It gives preference to those lines that directly connect to other modes of transit including airports, commuter rail, and bus services.   Also preference it given to lines that can demonstrate high levels of ridership and will help relieve congestion on the highways.  

It would seem to me the NCRR (not the right name) meets some of these criteria.   The ridership numbers are encouraging, but I think the numbers of riders would jump a great deal if they would add a midday train.  It would make the turn around a lot more tolerable and I could see people taking the trains more often as a result.   2008 seems to be a long way out for adding another train.  I wonder what is holding it up?

In regards to connections to multi-modal facilities, the new Gateway station in Charlotte would qualify for that, as would the station in Greensboro due to the bus terminal being located there.  How do the other rail stations stand on this area?    Unfortunately there are no connections planned for any of the airports so I guess we miss out on that one.

[JunktionFET]

Quote

In regards to connections to multi-modal facilities, the new Gateway station in Charlotte would qualify for that, as would the station in Greensboro due to the bus terminal being located there. How do the other rail stations stand on this area?

There's downtown Durham's new multi-modal station. The renderings and models look quite nice and it has provisions for the proposed TTA rail system too.

Downtown Cary's train station is designed to be multi-modal in that it will handle the proposed TTA rail system and also act as a major transfer point for TTA and C-TRAN buses (when C-TRAN starts their fixed routes, this month I believe). Ironically the Cary station also houses a DMV driver license office

The station envisioned for downtown Raleigh is also multi-modal (or "inter-modal" as it has been called). It has been through several different revisions and such but certainly combined many different forms of transportation. It also has the capacity to handle eastern commuter transit lines like those suggested by Eastrans. Who knows when this new station will get off the ground though.

I believe some of the other recent historic station renovations have had some future multi-modal element in mind.

By the way, this news article has two small but interesting photos from the reopened Greensboro station.

[mattm]

I used to live by those "rail sale" deals when I was working in Charlotte -- I took the train back and forth most every Friday and Sunday night for those 8 months.  I even got my picture in the paper about taking the train!  I think my mom got about 25 copies of it from her friends that live in the area.

Actually, from that usage standpoint, the midday run isn't quite as useful.  There were a number of us worker types that commuted weekly or more.  The evening trains were really about that were useful I think.  Same for the group of split-family kids that spent weekends with the other parent.

However, for the leisure day-trip this does open up possibilities.  A trip to Charlotte (or Raleigh from the other end) means you're using the Piedmont (Carolinian) both ways in order to have about a 7 hour visit.  A trip to Greensboro on the train means that you almost immediately board the train back, or you have to spend a long day there (about 10 hours).  7 hours is really about the limit when you're dragging smaller kids around.

On another note, C-Tran has delayed their fixed route startup into December.  There's a small note in their recent press releases here: http://www.townofcar...check-ctran.htm

[transitman]

I'd like to see the midday train introduced on weekends first.  Those are the big ridership days anyway, I think.  

That might be a way to get it started earlier using less money.  

Here's a possible schedule that could be implemented as early as next spring.

RAL CLT
7:00 10:05

CLT RAL
10:35 13:40

RAL CLT
14:10 17:15

CLT RAL
17:45 20:50

You could be in Greensboro by 8:30 AM and depart back at 12:05 P.M.

[dubone]

http://www.sehsr.org/

According to the SEHSR site, historic sites were found during the Tier II EIS.  This will cause 1-2 year delays in completing the Draft EIS.

It was posted on the SEHSR 10/19/05, but I don't see the news posted on this thread yet.