886 replies to this topic

[ERJ170]

Quick Question.. is there any way NCRR can make the line between RGH and CLT closed so that the speed can be increased to a higher speed level? I know they are double tracking it, but is that enough considering the line has to share with freight. Should it be triple tracked with a dedicated freight line and closed so the Piedmont can potentially get up to 125mp? When I traveled the rail line in Barcelona, it was completely closed and it really MOVED! It would be nice if something like that could happen on the NCRR line... just a thought..

[mallguy]

Yes, it could be closed off (assuming you mean eliminating grade crossings).

Diesel locomotives, however, can go only 110 mph or so, so to get up to 125 mph, the line would have to be electrified, with catenary and new locomotives EDITED TO ADD and new passenger cars, as the ones that NC uses probably aren't certified for 125-mph travel.  I don't see that happening.

Edited by mallguy, 20 January 2012 - 08:05 PM.

[ERJ170]

Then I say we go up to 100mph with the current equipment. That should be able to shave some time of the trip and make the time better than driving.. Just a thought..

[orulz]

NCDOT is already working on a plan to close many, though not all of the grade crossings on the NCRR throughout the state. Some of the double-tracking projects funded by ARRA will include closing a lot of crossings. Notably, if I recall correctly, every single grade crossing on the NCRR in Mecklenburg will be closed or separated.

Other projects, called Traffic Separation Studies (TSS), are meant to look at all the crossings in a large area and identify the best treatment at each (Closing, separation, better gates, traffic light synchronization, road changes.) There are major studies in progress right now in Durham and Wake counties and possibly elsewhere in the state. However, this will be a long term goal since the studies are funded but the improvements they recommend are not.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

What is the eventual goal of the SEHSR between Raleigh and Charlotte? Complete grade separation and 110 mph? Or is that just planned for the Raleigh-Richmond S-Line?

[cowboy_wilhelm]

ERJ170, on 20 January 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

Quick Question.. is there any way NCRR can make the line between RGH and CLT closed so that the speed can be increased to a higher speed level? I know they are double tracking it, but is that enough considering the line has to share with freight. Should it be triple tracked with a dedicated freight line and closed so the Piedmont can potentially get up to 125mp? When I traveled the rail line in Barcelona, it was completely closed and it really MOVED! It would be nice if something like that could happen on the NCRR line... just a thought..

mallguy, on 20 January 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

Yes, it could be closed off (assuming you mean eliminating grade crossings).

Diesel locomotives, however, can go only 110 mph or so, so to get up to 125 mph, the line would have to be electrified, with catenary and new locomotives EDITED TO ADD and new passenger cars, as the ones that NC uses probably aren't certified for 125-mph travel.  I don't see that happening.

ERJ170, on 20 January 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

Then I say we go up to 100mph with the current equipment. That should be able to shave some time of the trip and make the time better than driving.. Just a thought..

Well, the Northeast Regional rolling stock in the Carolinian consist are used on the electrified NEC up to 125 mph. Not sure about the Piedmont equipment, though. Anything faster than that would require new rolling stock.

Really, the cost/benefit ratio is best for using conventional diesel equipment and coaches at 110 mph. Most bang for your buck. Electrifying for anything less than 150 mph isn't worth it, because not enough time is saved to warrant the additional costs (or relatively low ridership along the corridor, compared to more populated regions).

Even at that, the 110 mph SEHSR corridor is estimated to average 85-87 mph after full implementation, which is faster than the 70 mph average for the 150 mph Acela Express service. Just sayin'.

[orulz]

cowboy_wilhelm, on 23 January 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

What is the eventual goal of the SEHSR between Raleigh and Charlotte? Complete grade separation and 110 mph? Or is that just planned for the Raleigh-Richmond S-Line?

To the best of my knowledge, complete separation is not in the cards for the NCRR. They may drastically reduce the number of crossings but I don't think they're really considering complete separation. Furthermore, 90mph is probably "it" for the NCRR since it's curvy and because of Norfolk Southern's demand that any passenger trains faster than 90mph be on a dedicated track.

NCDOT has on their very long-term (2050) plans a 150mph line more or less on a straight line from Raleigh to Charlotte (borrowing portions of the ACWR line) which would have to be fully grade separated. Any true high-speed electrified line from Washington through Raleigh to Charlotte and Atlanta would probably follow this route.

[kermit]

According to this post over at rr dot net the Carolinian and two Virginia trains (one to Lynchburg and one to Newport News) are approaching profitability according to the current Amtrak five year financial plan. http://www.railroad....art=60#p1014324  These appear to be the only trains outside the NE corridor that are close to profitability.

If this indeed turns out to be accurate then I think this makes a very strong case for SEHSR. In addition, if capacity limits have caped revenue growth on the Carolinian then perhaps a second train to DC / NY would be appropriate (equipment permitting). It looks like there are quite a few people willing to pay to connect to the NE corridor by rail.

Edited by kermit, 05 February 2012 - 01:43 AM.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

I have been wondering about the potential of a regional Crescent service from Atlanta to Washington. This would provide riders with a daytime train between Atlanta, Upstate South Carolina, and Charlotte, a corridor that I believe has strong ridership potential that remains mostly untapped due to the current schedule. With a successful regional service from Atlanta to Charlotte and points north, this will hopefully get Georgia and South Carolina to take future SEHSR funding seriously. However, I'm not sure if it would have a negative impact on current Crescent, Carolinian and Piedmont ridership.

A possible schedule, based off the current Crescent schedule and accommodating current service:

Southbound    Crescent Regional    Northbound
8 00A   Washington 9 49P
9 22A Charlottesville   7 05P
1 52P   Greensboro    4 10P
4 15P Charlotte   1 42P
6 31P    Greenville 10 54A
9 43P Atlanta 8 00A

Sorry for the whacky formatting.

[ah59396]

http://www.foxcharlo...obile=y&clmob=y

More negative press for high speed rail.  Yay!

[mallguy]

cowboy_wilhelm, on 05 February 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

I have been wondering about the potential of a regional Crescent service from Atlanta to Washington. This would provide riders with a daytime train between Atlanta, Upstate South Carolina, and Charlotte, a corridor that I believe has strong ridership potential that remains mostly untapped due to the current schedule. With a successful regional service from Atlanta to Charlotte and points north, this will hopefully get Georgia and South Carolina to take future SEHSR funding seriously. However, I'm not sure if it would have a negative impact on current Crescent, Carolinian and Piedmont ridership.

A possible schedule, based off the current Crescent schedule and accommodating current service:

Southbound    Crescent Regional    Northbound
8 00A   Washington 9 49P
9 22A Charlottesville   7 05P
1 52P   Greensboro    4 10P
4 15P Charlotte   1 42P
6 31P    Greenville 10 54A
9 43P Atlanta 8 00A

Sorry for the whacky formatting.

This is similar to the schedule of the Southern Railway's Piedmont train in the 1970s.  It had a few coaches, a cafe car and lots of freight cars hooked onto the end.

I think that increases in frequency probably cause ridership to increase at a faster rate than the growth in seat-miles.  However, the Crescent between NY and Atlanta already has capacity constraints, so perhaps some Crescent ridership would also spill over to the new train.

I'm all for it.  2:15 from Charlotte-Greenville is too slow, though (for the Crescent it doesn't matter as much since it's in the middle of the night, but a day train would need to be faster).

[thetrick]

kermit, on 05 February 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

According to this post over at rr dot net the Carolinian and two Virginia trains (one to Lynchburg and one to Newport News) are approaching profitability according to the current Amtrak five year financial plan. http://www.railroad....art=60#p1014324  These appear to be the only trains outside the NE corridor that are close to profitability.

If this indeed turns out to be accurate then I think this makes a very strong case for SEHSR. In addition, if capacity limits have caped revenue growth on the Carolinian then perhaps a second train to DC / NY would be appropriate (equipment permitting). It looks like there are quite a few people willing to pay to connect to the NE corridor by rail.

That is very encouraging information and supports what I have always thought. The Carolinan is the natural extension of the NEC and this is the way HRS should expand in this country. I really don't like the way the La Hood tossed money all around the country to these grand plans.The FL plan bombed and the CA HSR is on the verge of imploding from it's own costs. Americans need to learn what rail travel is all over again and that takes time. Natural organic growth of the existing NEC is the most logical way to procede.

I'm not really that excited about super fast trains either, what we need are high average speeds, limited grade crossings and no delays. Americans will demand true high speed rail when they feel that rail ravel is an important part of their lives.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

The Draft Recommendation Report for Raleigh to Richmond has been released by North Carolina and Virginia. This includes the recommended alternative for each section (and a bridge over Capital Boulevard).

[kermit]

There has been some movement on getting Charlotte Gateway station moving: http://www.bizjourna...n-in-works.html

In summary, if everything goes well CATS, NCDOT and Mecklenburg County hope to have development partners lined up by June. This led me to wonder if there is any progress on the storage and maintance yard for the Piedmont and Carolinian near Summit ave? If memory serves this project was funded by the ARRA funds that are paying for the double tracking, I have visited the site recently but there is no evidence of site work.

[thetrick]

I have googled the hell out of that maintenance facility in the past and not found a lot. Hereis an old document that at least show the foot print, but that might have changed too. I am guessing they won't turn any dirt until all the property is aquired. Plus I am sure they will post a news release when they award the contract for it's construction.

[Otto]

NCDOT is currently completing the environmental documentation for the Charlotte Maintenace Facility, which will be located SW of Uptown adjacent to Charlotte Pipe and Foundry.  NCDOT is also working the Environmental documentation for the for the Mainline Track Improvements which will add an additional track from Orr Road to the Charlotte Wye east of Bill Graham Pkwy.  This project will provide the tracks necessary to access the proposed Charlotte Gateway station.

[mallguy]

Still not understanding why Charlotte needs a wye.  Why aren't the Piedmont and Carolinian push-pull trains yet, with a locomotive on one end and a non-powered control car on the other?

[ERJ170]

mallguy, on 16 February 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

Still not understanding why Charlotte needs a wye.  Why aren't the Piedmont and Carolinian push-pull trains yet, with a locomotive on one end and a non-powered control car on the other?

Agreed. And I don't know why they can't allow the Piedmont, at least once a day, to go all the way to Morehead City so I can catch the rails to New BERN!!!!!

[orulz]

ERJ170, on 16 February 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

Agreed. And I don't know why they can't allow the Piedmont, at least once a day, to go all the way to Morehead City so I can catch the rails to New BERN!!!!!

Because there are no stations, there is no signaling on the line east of Goldsboro, who knows what CSX would have to say about the at-grade crossings of their two lines in Selma and Goldsboro, there is street running in both New Bern and Morehead which makes things more complicated and slower still, and because adding service between Raleigh and Charlotte is a higher priority, and Asheville and Wilmington are the next priorities after that due to greater population and higher ridership potential.

Service to New Bern and Morehead would be nice, don't get me wrong, but implementation is much more than a matter of Patrick Simmons down at the DOT snapping his fingers trains rolling.

[orulz]

mallguy, on 16 February 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

Still not understanding why Charlotte needs a wye.  Why aren't the Piedmont and Carolinian push-pull trains yet, with a locomotive on one end and a non-powered control car on the other?

mallguy, on 16 February 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

Still not understanding why Charlotte needs a wye. Why aren't the Piedmont and Carolinian push-pull trains yet, with a locomotive on one end and a non-powered control car on the other?

I think it's probably just a matter of "Where do we spend our capital money - rolling stock or track improvements?" and the track improvements won out. I can't imagine there's a big cost difference between building the wye and equipping every trainset with a control car.

Control cars cost money to buy and maintain. NCDOT would have to either buy an old locomotive and de-power it, usually called "Cabbage" (which would be expensive) or rebuild an Amtrak Metroliner NPCU or SPV-2000 as a cab car (which would look ugly on the Piedmont and also be expensive), not to mention the additional maintenance costs.

A wye is a one-time capital cost that requires comparatively little maintenance. Plus, it is probably needed by Norfolk Southern anyway, especially with their new intermodal yard at the airport.

Now, when NCDOT buys brand-new trainsets for the Piedmont and/or HSR, THEN they will probably move to push-pull. But that's because a brand new trainset would be push-pull anyway.