1612 replies to this topic

[sunshine]

Let them know about this website so they can come here to listen to the concern citizens.

[GRS328]

Dale, on Jun 9 2005, 12:12 PM, said:

I get that much. What I'm trying to ascertain is whether Crotty is simply exercising responsible governance at this point. I myself wonder about the bang-bang nature of this proposal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I get what your saying, that Crotty is just governing responsibly by not just "jumping on board" no questions asked.  I agree with you there.  But are budgetary concerns the only litmus test for responsible governing?  I find that it would be very difficult to argue, even for non-urbanists, that alternative modes of transportation are desperately needed in Central FL.  We know what the situation is like now, and it is only going to compound in the future.  So while I will agree with you that Crotty may be governing responsibly, his concerns are primarliy limited to the here-and-now.  So if Orange County ultimately does kill this plan, and any form of rail project for the region is put off for another several years, is he not governing irresponsibly for the future?    

And is the massive investment in the convention center responsible when according to all recent major studies of the subject, conventions and the like are on the decline, and will likely continue to be in the near future?  And with cities all over the country building bigger and newer convention centers, the slice of the pie just gets smaller.  I am not arguing that the convention center is useless.  It obviously has a great effect on the local economy.  But the investment in it is huge, and the returns are diminishing.  
It's very frustrating to see the county (I'll stop singling out Crotty) so invested in that entity, yet down on another one that offers so many benefits to so many of us because the investment may be too great.

Edited by GRS328, 09 June 2005 - 11:21 AM.

[Dale]

GRS328, on Jun 9 2005, 11:18 AM, said:

I get what your saying, that Crotty is just governing responsibly by not just "jumping on board" no questions asked.  I agree with you there.  But are budgetary concerns the only litmus test for responsible governing?  I find that it would be very difficult to argue, even for non-urbanists, that alternative modes of transportation are desperately needed in Central FL.  We know what the situation is like now, and it is only going to compound in the future.  So while I will agree with you that Crotty may be governing responsibly, his concerns are primarliy limited to the here-and-now.  So if Orange County ultimately does kill this plan, and any form of rail project for the region is put off for another several years, is he not governing irresponsibly for the future?     

And is the massive investment in the convention center responsible when according to all recent major studies of the subject, conventions and the like are on the decline, and will likely continue to be in the near future?  And with cities all over the country building bigger and newer convention centers, the slice of the pie just gets smaller.  I am not arguing that the convention center is useless.  It obviously has a great effect on the local economy.  But the investment in it is huge, and the returns are diminishing. 
It's very frustrating to see the county (I'll stop singling out Crotty) so invested in that entity, yet down on another one that offers so many benefits to so many of us because the investment may be too great.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It does appear that, in the convention center, that the county has a ponderously heavy weight strapped to its back. And this is one of the reasons why, though commuter rail is appealing, the county may very sincerely concerned about how to muster additional funding. I think Jacobs is probably right in doubting that a tax increase of any sort will fly.

[Wayne]

prahaboheme, on Jun 8 2005, 05:10 PM, said:

anything interesting expressed at the meeting Wayne?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Before the presentation, they had a very good display of maps lined up showing the entire corridor and lots of staff to answer questions.  The presentation was fairly short and they would not let you ask questions in front of the group.  You were told if you had questions to meet one of the staff members in the lobby.  Most of what they spoke of was already on the CFRrail web site.  I was interviewed by a reporter from Central Florida news 13  after the meeting and saw it on TV yesterday.  Also got to speak briefly with a representative from Congressmen Mica's office.  I told him I appreciate Mica's support for commuter rail but expressed my concerns for the impending Amtrak crisis.  About 100 people were there.  I get the impression that this project will go forward and that it has a lot of political support.

P.S.  Have you joined the Florida Coalition of Rail Passengers yet?  We are looking for new members who are active and it sounds like you are pretty knowledgable on this issue.  You would not be the youngest member though.  We have a member who is 19.  We have a registration form on our web site.
Wayne

[prahaboheme]

I'll join.  

[Dale]

Wayne -

Is the political support you say the project has enough to overcome a 'no' by Orange County ? I get the sense that it's all up to Orange county at this point, whether anyone likes it or not.

[Wayne]

prahaboheme, on Jun 9 2005, 01:36 PM, said:

I'll join. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That great!!

I just wanted to say I really put my foot in my mouth when I made that statement about political support!!  I posted that before I saw the bad news about Orange County.  We'll just have to keep the pressure on.  Enjoy the meeting tonight.  
Wayne

[sunshine]

Orange offers new rail-line deal

By Scott Powers and Jason Garcia | Sentinel Staff Writers
Posted June 10, 2005


A day after stepping back from Central Florida's proposed commuter train, Orange County is trying to leverage a new deal that would keep the train on track and cut the cost to local taxpayers.

Florida Department of Transportation officials now are considering using a new law and more state money to cut local taxpayers' share of the costs in half.

http://www.orlandose...-home-headlines
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For 475 millions, cant they build lightrail instead? And why is it so expensive if we only use existing track? Isnt the high speed rail only cost 1 billion?

[sunshine]

Missing link: Rail from OIA to port
Published June 10, 2005

http://www.orlandose...iness-headlines

[bobliocatt]

Is CSX selling the tracks or will they be leased?  If they're selling them, this will allow for freight trains to be relocated and possible double tracking through Orlando.

Considering Jax is paying $400 million for a 27 mile BRT system,
$475 million for a rail system stretching from Osceola to Volusia Counties is pretty cheap.

BTW, High Speed Rail from Tampa to Orlando was estimated to cost $2.7 billion.

[prahaboheme]

Is Crotty really going to ruin this one too?  He's balking at a rather unsubstantial amount of money.  And the idea that Osceola and Seminole have more to benefit from this commuter rail system is just hogwash.

[Dale]

prahaboheme, on Jun 10 2005, 12:35 PM, said:

Is Crotty really going to ruin this one too?  He's balking at a rather unsubstantial amount of money.  And the idea that Osceola and Seminole have more to benefit from this commuter rail system is just hogwash.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Didn't this article sound a whole heck of a lot more positive to you than yesterday's '...Poised to Kill...' ?

How the hell can you fault the guy for angling for better terms if he can ? some would just call that responsible governance.

By the way, how did the meeting go ?

[Dale]

sunshine, on Jun 10 2005, 05:56 AM, said:

Orange offers new rail-line deal

By Scott Powers and Jason Garcia | Sentinel Staff Writers
Posted June 10, 2005
A day after stepping back from Central Florida's proposed commuter train, Orange County is trying to leverage a new deal that would keep the train on track and cut the cost to local taxpayers.

Florida Department of Transportation officials now are considering using a new law and more state money to cut local taxpayers' share of the costs in half.

http://www.orlandose...-home-headlines
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For 475 millions, cant they build lightrail instead? And why is it so expensive if we only use existing track? Isnt the high speed rail only cost 1 billion?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For one thing, I don't know that $ 475 mil gets much in the way of lightrail these days. For another, I think this commuter rail is supposed to be uber-cool, really streamlined and fancy, not looking like a locomotive.

[prahaboheme]

From a guy that promotes road-widening, more expressways and endless funds for the convention center, it does urk me that he is claiming to be searching for a fiscally responsible approach to commuter rail.  Commuter rail is a fiscally responsible mode of transportation!  I got to the meeting a bit late, but it was good to see community involvement, though I didn't learn anything new.  It doesn't seem, at least from the attendees, that there is much nimbyism at this point.

[Dale]

prahaboheme, on Jun 10 2005, 04:43 PM, said:

From a guy that promotes road-widening, more expressways and endless funds for the convention center, it does urk me that he is claiming to be searching for a fiscally responsible approach to commuter rail.  Commuter rail is a fiscally responsible mode of transportation!  I got to the meeting a bit late, but it was good to see community involvement, though I didn't learn anything new.  It doesn't seem, at least from the attendees, that there is much nimbyism at this point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I suspect our dear Mr.Crotty is going to do the right thing here.

[sunshine]

Time to ride commuter rail to traffic relief
Published June 12, 2005

Winter Park killed a light-rail route through the city back in the 1990s. There was concern that the riffraff would ride the choo-choo into town

http://www.orlandose...-news-headlines

[hueblue]

sunshine, on Jun 12 2005, 09:41 AM, said:

Time to ride commuter rail to traffic relief
Published June 12, 2005

Winter Park killed a light-rail route through the city back in the 1990s. There was concern that the riffraff would ride the choo-choo into town

http://www.orlandose...-news-headlines

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That was a funny column. I liked the part where he said:

"The big picture unfolds and the (Orange County Commissioners) turn into barnyard chickens, picking at minutiae. It's the story of this place."

[Lunican]

Unless Orlando can come up with the money and desire to build CSX an alternate route around Orlando, this will not happen. CSX will not allow light rail to operate on its tracks with freight trains, period. Sorry for the bad news.

[Dale]

Lunican, on Jun 12 2005, 08:54 AM, said:

Unless Orlando can come up with the money and desire to build CSX an alternate route around Orlando, this will not happen. CSX will not allow light rail to operate on its tracks with freight trains, period. Sorry for the bad news.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Huh ? I'm pretty sure they're farther down the road with CSX on this than you might imagine.

[firemick]

Disband Orange County Government immediately!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!