3
Belharbour Station at SoNo
Started by
vdogg
, Dec 04 2005 02:32 AM
109 replies to this topic
#41
vdogg
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Posted 13 July 2006 - 07:15 PM
Welcome to the forum MSN
#42
MissSouthNorfolk
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Posted 14 July 2006 - 08:17 AM
Thank you for the warm welcome. I'm not a local but I have lived here in the historic district for 9 years now. We now have a new Police Captain at Prec. 2, Captain Branch. He's been great since he took over in May. He's been active at cleaning the neighborhood up. The last Captain we had didnt' really care and let the neighborhood go. I really was almost ready to sell and move N.C. in Moyok.
The plans you see listed on the site are things we'd like to do. We have a few investors who have been actively looking at all the areas to see what they can do with the area. It's been years in the making already, but will still need work to be done. We have investors who are just waiting to see what happens with the Paylor Spruill project. No one wants to be the first one in. Thanks to this man, he's also made a proposal to Portsmouth to keep the trash site from coming here. We're trying hard to clean up the waterfront from the years of abuse. We don't want to add to that. Portsmouth and Norfolk have already invested in the waterfront and it's about time that Chesapeake does the same thing. Waterfront is where the money is in today's market. People keep saying who would buy a luxuary condo right there? When you have people who have never seen a shipyard or Navy ships in person, but yet they will be able to look accross and see our country at work. It's an amazing site. People are fleeing to the South for warmer weather and cheaper housing. Baby Boomers are retiring with a solid bank account and they just want a little peice of the waterfront view without having to mow a lawn. The condos will have a section for retirees for 55 and up. Then there will be another section for mixed ages. Office space, parking garage, even a park with a play area. They will be putting in a bike path that will also include roller blading, skate boards and golf carts that will make a path to Lakeside park and Portlock. This company came to us with many ideas and they were nice enough to include our ideas as well.
Mill Creek is another project. Alexander Homes came to us three years ago with their project. Sure they wanted to put in some townhomes and maybe a couple of shops. We said that we want better for our area. Look where your putting it. This a wonderful area with existing homes. We want it to fit the area. So with our help they came up with three story townhomes with front porches and decks, ginerbread trim, each house a different color and style. I have the drawings somewhere. I should see if I can scan them in. It will be a gated community with some shops below in the first set of homes to be built. Once again this is not going up overnight like some houses. They will be of quality and take over three years to have the complex built. It will have it's own private water access, playground, no pool is to be included. The ideas were beautiful.
We did have another project to come through and it was just ugly when we first saw it. This builder just wanted to through town homes up. It will be built in front of the Mill Creek project facing Bainbridge Rd. We said no way. Not looking like that. He made a lot of changes to make it blend in with the Mill Creek project. Unfortunately his didn't pass because of the land issue. We passed a new law last year that all projects in this city have to have land testing. Mill Creek is new land,never built on and the property cleared city council. But the other project had water run off from the grandfathered junkyard next to it. The cars are just sitting out there with oil and gas seeping into the ground which has polluted the projects property. Just sad and there's nothing we can do about it. We truely want the junkyard gone. It's messy and doesn't look nice from the street. Of course the junk yard fought the two projects coming to Portlock because he'd be forced to clean up his act or leave and then he'd have to follow the new guidelines by the government.
We have other investors that have been looking at the historic area. When this area goes up in value the landlords will sell because they wont' be able to keep up witht taxes and raising the rents of the houses they let fall apart. The investors know this and will be coming in to buy up the houses, fix them up and sell them for a huge profit. Which will clean up the gang activity and other violence. Really it's the same thing they did in Greenbrier, Ghent and now East Beach (Ocean View).
What do you think of the nickname So No? One of the older ladies here thought of it because of lot of communities all over the country are using this type of renaming to sound more like an art district. The younger people I've talked to don't like it because it sounds like Say No which kind of leaves a bad taste in your mouth. I'm in between on this issue.
We have been waiting for the Poindexter street Scape to start. It took years for us to get the money from grants in the state and from the Feds. When the city saw that we were serious they finally came on board about five years ago and said look, there is no sense redoing the street when plumbing and wiring need to be redone too. Our plumbing is original to the neighborhood. It was done in the 1920's and the sewer lines have decayed. Our streets flood with sewage. It smells nastey. So we waited for them to put on the public works schedule to have the work done. The city had other commitments to other growing neighborhoods before they could do us. We have been waiting a very long time. They finally came up with the money and put us on the schedule and hopefully it will start in Nov. and will take about three years plus to do the whole thing. We're waiting for the state to come on board to redo the 464 exit onto Poindexter. No word yet probably because the state doesnt' have the funds. We been adding out ideas also to the street scape project. The lighting, walkways, parking, benches have all been a co-opertive decsion.
Believe me, the city wouldn't build anything if they had their way. Everything being done in South Norfolk has been pushed by the citazens and Economic Developement. We have been begging for redevelpement here while the rest of the city conitues to grow and renew. South Norfolk built this city and it's time the city gives back.
Have a wonderful day everybody!
The plans you see listed on the site are things we'd like to do. We have a few investors who have been actively looking at all the areas to see what they can do with the area. It's been years in the making already, but will still need work to be done. We have investors who are just waiting to see what happens with the Paylor Spruill project. No one wants to be the first one in. Thanks to this man, he's also made a proposal to Portsmouth to keep the trash site from coming here. We're trying hard to clean up the waterfront from the years of abuse. We don't want to add to that. Portsmouth and Norfolk have already invested in the waterfront and it's about time that Chesapeake does the same thing. Waterfront is where the money is in today's market. People keep saying who would buy a luxuary condo right there? When you have people who have never seen a shipyard or Navy ships in person, but yet they will be able to look accross and see our country at work. It's an amazing site. People are fleeing to the South for warmer weather and cheaper housing. Baby Boomers are retiring with a solid bank account and they just want a little peice of the waterfront view without having to mow a lawn. The condos will have a section for retirees for 55 and up. Then there will be another section for mixed ages. Office space, parking garage, even a park with a play area. They will be putting in a bike path that will also include roller blading, skate boards and golf carts that will make a path to Lakeside park and Portlock. This company came to us with many ideas and they were nice enough to include our ideas as well.
Mill Creek is another project. Alexander Homes came to us three years ago with their project. Sure they wanted to put in some townhomes and maybe a couple of shops. We said that we want better for our area. Look where your putting it. This a wonderful area with existing homes. We want it to fit the area. So with our help they came up with three story townhomes with front porches and decks, ginerbread trim, each house a different color and style. I have the drawings somewhere. I should see if I can scan them in. It will be a gated community with some shops below in the first set of homes to be built. Once again this is not going up overnight like some houses. They will be of quality and take over three years to have the complex built. It will have it's own private water access, playground, no pool is to be included. The ideas were beautiful.
We did have another project to come through and it was just ugly when we first saw it. This builder just wanted to through town homes up. It will be built in front of the Mill Creek project facing Bainbridge Rd. We said no way. Not looking like that. He made a lot of changes to make it blend in with the Mill Creek project. Unfortunately his didn't pass because of the land issue. We passed a new law last year that all projects in this city have to have land testing. Mill Creek is new land,never built on and the property cleared city council. But the other project had water run off from the grandfathered junkyard next to it. The cars are just sitting out there with oil and gas seeping into the ground which has polluted the projects property. Just sad and there's nothing we can do about it. We truely want the junkyard gone. It's messy and doesn't look nice from the street. Of course the junk yard fought the two projects coming to Portlock because he'd be forced to clean up his act or leave and then he'd have to follow the new guidelines by the government.
We have other investors that have been looking at the historic area. When this area goes up in value the landlords will sell because they wont' be able to keep up witht taxes and raising the rents of the houses they let fall apart. The investors know this and will be coming in to buy up the houses, fix them up and sell them for a huge profit. Which will clean up the gang activity and other violence. Really it's the same thing they did in Greenbrier, Ghent and now East Beach (Ocean View).
What do you think of the nickname So No? One of the older ladies here thought of it because of lot of communities all over the country are using this type of renaming to sound more like an art district. The younger people I've talked to don't like it because it sounds like Say No which kind of leaves a bad taste in your mouth. I'm in between on this issue.
We have been waiting for the Poindexter street Scape to start. It took years for us to get the money from grants in the state and from the Feds. When the city saw that we were serious they finally came on board about five years ago and said look, there is no sense redoing the street when plumbing and wiring need to be redone too. Our plumbing is original to the neighborhood. It was done in the 1920's and the sewer lines have decayed. Our streets flood with sewage. It smells nastey. So we waited for them to put on the public works schedule to have the work done. The city had other commitments to other growing neighborhoods before they could do us. We have been waiting a very long time. They finally came up with the money and put us on the schedule and hopefully it will start in Nov. and will take about three years plus to do the whole thing. We're waiting for the state to come on board to redo the 464 exit onto Poindexter. No word yet probably because the state doesnt' have the funds. We been adding out ideas also to the street scape project. The lighting, walkways, parking, benches have all been a co-opertive decsion.
Believe me, the city wouldn't build anything if they had their way. Everything being done in South Norfolk has been pushed by the citazens and Economic Developement. We have been begging for redevelpement here while the rest of the city conitues to grow and renew. South Norfolk built this city and it's time the city gives back.
Have a wonderful day everybody!
#43
br0guy
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Posted 14 July 2006 - 03:42 PM
MissSouthNorfolk, on Jul 14 2006, 10:17 AM, said:
Believe me, the city wouldn't build anything if they had their way. Everything being done in South Norfolk has been pushed by the citazens and Economic Developement. We have been begging for redevelpement here while the rest of the city conitues to grow and renew. South Norfolk built this city and it's time the city gives back.
#44
MissSouthNorfolk
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Posted 14 July 2006 - 04:36 PM
br0guy, on Jul 14 2006, 03:42 PM, said:
How about starting by setting aside some land to the church they kicked off the old Piggly Wiggly site. I believe they settled the suit, but they still have nowhere to build.
They knew when they bought the site that they would have a fight on there hands. They do have a church in Norfolk's berkley section. Near the projects. They have done nothing to improve the area they are already in. They knew this was a gold mine and bought it very quietly for little money. The news was already out that the city was going to purchase the land to revitalize Poindexter. Unfortunately the city didn't have any money to obtain the land. That was the downfall of the city. Farm Fresh owned the property earlier on and refused to build a new grocery store on it or sell it to Food Lion for fear the competition it would have to the existing store on Providence. The refused to sell it at the time. Finally someone else was able to buy it and they too kept the property so nothing could be built on it. They intern sold it to the church.
The Church knew that it was a commercially zoned lot but bought it anyway. Many churches came to our area before this and many have come since then. It wasn't a church issue but a land issue. The city offered them four other sites in Chesapeake for free at tax payer expense and would let them keep their land too, to lease out to developers. This is why it kept getting postponed during city council. We constantly met with the church to come up with other alternatives, but they didn't budge at all. When city council said no, the church sued. We settled out of court paying them 3 times what they paid for it. Good investment for them though. The developer has purchased the land from the city which has reimbursed the city what they payed for the land, the court cost and made $75,000 more to put in the general fund. Don't feel too sorry for the church. They made out quiet well.
You ever notice how biased the Pilot is and not all the facts are put into the articles. Oh, I mean stories. There is always more to the story than is put in the paper.
#45
urbanlife
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Posted 17 July 2006 - 09:08 PM
As someone who is concerned with the growth of South Norfolk as well as an architecture student. It has always been a town I have wanted to see make a major comeback, not as a downtown like Norfolk or a TC like Virginia Beach, but rather as the great small town of South Norfolk it use to be and should be today.
As an architecture student and getting the chance to study so many great works of architecture out there, much of which is modern architecture. I suggest checking out 10 x 10 or 10 x 10 2 on Amazon.com for perfect examples of modern architecture. South Norfolk is at a point where it can offer something to Hampton Roads that no other city there can offer, the idea of a changing small town in the middle of a big metro.
Would I love to return home to find an urban town in SOuth Norfolk, yes. I would love to see that area home to a well knit of 3 to 10 story buildings from young architects from around the country giving a chance to flex their ideas and inspire a community with architecture. I would love to return there and stop by the market in the heart of town where you run into every new local that has helped bring that area back and sample all that it has to offer.
I think another great example is, think Ghent in a several block scale, where skyline is not important and the urban connections are.....kind of like the city of Portland I am living in now is like.
That area has so much to offer that region, I hope to one day get to see it come true.......I mean I was one of the few 20 year olds in 1998 who saw a golden chance for urban development in Fort Norfolk and when I would speak about them I was always told "something like that would never happen there, so you might as well dream about something else, no one would want to build anything there." Its funny how things can change in just 8 years.
I actually own a book on the history of South Norfolk, which is why I have always speaked so highly of that area no matter how far down hill the metro has let it get. I know it will have a great comeback someday, it just needs more people (with money always helps) to believe in it to make it happen.
Dennis.
As an architecture student and getting the chance to study so many great works of architecture out there, much of which is modern architecture. I suggest checking out 10 x 10 or 10 x 10 2 on Amazon.com for perfect examples of modern architecture. South Norfolk is at a point where it can offer something to Hampton Roads that no other city there can offer, the idea of a changing small town in the middle of a big metro.
Would I love to return home to find an urban town in SOuth Norfolk, yes. I would love to see that area home to a well knit of 3 to 10 story buildings from young architects from around the country giving a chance to flex their ideas and inspire a community with architecture. I would love to return there and stop by the market in the heart of town where you run into every new local that has helped bring that area back and sample all that it has to offer.
I think another great example is, think Ghent in a several block scale, where skyline is not important and the urban connections are.....kind of like the city of Portland I am living in now is like.
That area has so much to offer that region, I hope to one day get to see it come true.......I mean I was one of the few 20 year olds in 1998 who saw a golden chance for urban development in Fort Norfolk and when I would speak about them I was always told "something like that would never happen there, so you might as well dream about something else, no one would want to build anything there." Its funny how things can change in just 8 years.
I actually own a book on the history of South Norfolk, which is why I have always speaked so highly of that area no matter how far down hill the metro has let it get. I know it will have a great comeback someday, it just needs more people (with money always helps) to believe in it to make it happen.
Dennis.
#46
MissSouthNorfolk
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Posted 25 July 2006 - 09:25 AM
Sorry I haven't written in a while. My 7 year old son is home for the summer and we've kids over playing almost everyday. He's taking a summer class for two weeks and letting me catch up on what you all are talking about.
I don't want South Norfolk to become too Urban anymore than the people who are living here for years. We just want to blossom and control the growth as it comes in. I would just like to have some things within walking distance so I don't have to leave my area to do my shopping or eating out. I love the restaurants in Ghent and would like to see that here. I like to see mom and pop shops to bring that old town feel. Maybe one day we could expand the July 4th Parade to Poindexter.
We've had two new families buy homes here just on the first two blocks near my home. We have professors, hospital staff, city employees, electricians, plumbers, draftsmen, teachers, realitors, construction workers, shop owners, retail staff, etc. We have a variety of people living here from all kinds of backgrounds.
What would all of you like to see in South Norfolk if you could pick?
I don't want South Norfolk to become too Urban anymore than the people who are living here for years. We just want to blossom and control the growth as it comes in. I would just like to have some things within walking distance so I don't have to leave my area to do my shopping or eating out. I love the restaurants in Ghent and would like to see that here. I like to see mom and pop shops to bring that old town feel. Maybe one day we could expand the July 4th Parade to Poindexter.
We've had two new families buy homes here just on the first two blocks near my home. We have professors, hospital staff, city employees, electricians, plumbers, draftsmen, teachers, realitors, construction workers, shop owners, retail staff, etc. We have a variety of people living here from all kinds of backgrounds.
What would all of you like to see in South Norfolk if you could pick?
#47
vdogg
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 06:51 AM
Big riverfront plan gets ok (still no renderings though 
)
)Quote
On the shore of the Elizabeth River, near Poindexter Street, sits the former J.G. Wilson site. The property is on the edge of a deteriorating section of South Norfolk and was the former home to a metal door manufacturing company.
Across the river in Portsmouth is a 16.5-acre property, a vacant parcel of land known as the Allied site. It is a mile away from any residential area.
On Tuesday, the Chesapeake City Council made clear its vision for both sides of the water.
Across the river in Portsmouth is a 16.5-acre property, a vacant parcel of land known as the Allied site. It is a mile away from any residential area.
On Tuesday, the Chesapeake City Council made clear its vision for both sides of the water.
#48
MissSouthNorfolk
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 08:08 AM
I just find it so sad that Portsmouth would ignore her sister cities to build something that is such an eye sore after all the work that Portsmouth and Norfolk have done to reinvent their downtowns. We have been working for the past 7 years on these plans for South Norfolk to mirror image the waterfront. Paylor Spruill offered the same thing to Portsmouth, but they turned it down because this chunk of land is 2 miles from anything residental. I think you have to start somewhere. I hope they will pick a different project than the trashport. Even the Portsmouth residents don't want it.
We are very excited about the project. At our civic league meeting Monday night we had a group to come out that has invested their time walking our neighborhood and talking with business owners and neighbors. They were able to see what buildings are to be saved and which ones have so deteriated to be torn down. It's taken them a year to put this plan together. They've gotten two investors to come here. One bought the big pig lot and has offered a ton of money to the residents behind that area to move. They want a larger chunk of land to build on. Another is waiting for them to peice together more property to invest in. They are now putting together finacial packages for the residents who have homes that need work. Some will be low interest loans while others will be forgiven loans that will not be paid back. McDonalds and the bank next to it own large amounts of property. They have joined in as well. They both want to rebuild only smaller into a building. More like a small storefront. McDonalds will make a killing off the rental of their property and so will the bank.
The city doesn't want to get into taking any property but the investors will buy out alot of people. There are huge plans for the B Street section which are on their way to be peiced together. Some of the projects in the area will be relocated to other areas of the city so they are not all in just South Norfolk. That is still a ways down the road though.
We are very excited about the project. At our civic league meeting Monday night we had a group to come out that has invested their time walking our neighborhood and talking with business owners and neighbors. They were able to see what buildings are to be saved and which ones have so deteriated to be torn down. It's taken them a year to put this plan together. They've gotten two investors to come here. One bought the big pig lot and has offered a ton of money to the residents behind that area to move. They want a larger chunk of land to build on. Another is waiting for them to peice together more property to invest in. They are now putting together finacial packages for the residents who have homes that need work. Some will be low interest loans while others will be forgiven loans that will not be paid back. McDonalds and the bank next to it own large amounts of property. They have joined in as well. They both want to rebuild only smaller into a building. More like a small storefront. McDonalds will make a killing off the rental of their property and so will the bank.
The city doesn't want to get into taking any property but the investors will buy out alot of people. There are huge plans for the B Street section which are on their way to be peiced together. Some of the projects in the area will be relocated to other areas of the city so they are not all in just South Norfolk. That is still a ways down the road though.
#49
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 09:57 AM
It's about time they got rid of that industrial eyesore. With so much potential on the river this could be the beginning of something much greater. I think the Portsmouth side should be looked at for a possible manufacturing complex. With the NN shipyard and SPSA there it would make it hard to sell people on living there. The smell alone would keep people away.
You could live in Sono, cross the new Jordan bridge, and work in Portsmouth.
You could live in Sono, cross the new Jordan bridge, and work in Portsmouth.
#50
vdogg
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 02:33 PM
Project details Warning! Large .pdf file
^^^Site Plan included on 19th page.
Also more detailed site plan that includes references to an office tower.
Warning! Even larger .pdf file
I searched high and low but still no renderings (except for the overhead site plan layout).
^^^Site Plan included on 19th page.
Also more detailed site plan that includes references to an office tower.
Warning! Even larger .pdf file
I searched high and low but still no renderings (except for the overhead site plan layout).
#51
erdogs
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 03:10 PM
Wow that second one is as large as my HOA contract! 
#52
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Posted 17 August 2006 - 10:55 PM
I'm a happy Serb for Belharbour though I'm going home to Serbia in a few months. I will miss working for Mr. Spruill and on his Belharbour project but I think I can still read Urban Planet in Belgrade/Beograd. Thank you again for the opportunity.
Edited by Serbian Underground, 17 August 2006 - 11:19 PM.
#53
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Posted 18 August 2006 - 07:33 AM
Serbian Underground, on Aug 18 2006, 12:55 AM, said:
I'm a happy Serb for Belharbour though I'm going home to Serbia in a few months. I will miss working for Mr. Spruill and on his Belharbour project but I think I can still read Urban Planet in Belgrade/Beograd. Thank you again for the opportunity.#54
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Posted 20 August 2006 - 03:39 PM
rusthebuss, on Aug 18 2006, 05:33 PM, said:
Going home permanetly?
Not permanently. I got a job in Budapest for a while which starts in December. It is a project on the Danube River on the Pest side and it will be similar to Belharbour only there will be no parking decks and the residential buildings will have open courtyards in the middle of them. Budapest is cleaning up its industrial sites also.
#55
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Posted 20 August 2006 - 05:39 PM
Serbian Underground, on Aug 20 2006, 05:39 PM, said:
Not permanently. I got a job in Budapest for a while which starts in December. It is a project on the Danube River on the Pest side and it will be similar to Belharbour only there will be no parking decks and the residential buildings will have open courtyards in the middle of them. Budapest is cleaning up its industrial sites also.
#56
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Posted 22 August 2006 - 06:45 PM
rusthebuss, on Aug 21 2006, 03:39 AM, said:
Are you coming back here? With your European influence you could do alot for this area in urban planning and development! Good luck on your venture over there and be safe.
Belharbour is working on how to get me back. I hope they get the Allied site in Portsmouth... That site isn't as contaminated as the Wilson site surprisingly but neither have serious problems. Americans are too easy to scare where toxic matters are concerned. It is not as difficult to clean up as it might seem. It's no where near like Central Europe which was Russia's nuclear waste dumping ground but we figured out how to clean it. I am surprised that a professional consulting firm would prepare a report saying that the Allied Site in Portsmouth is suited for nothing but Industrial. Europe has been combining residential with industrial for a long time. Most people like to watch industries work especially at night. I love Hampton Rds. It is like a baby about to be born on its river systems. I want to bring back with me a colleague of mine from Germany who worked for the U.N. on the Danube River cleanup which started back in 2000. He is doing a few years work in Hungary. I'm amazed at how fast Hungary is developing... all of Central Europe is developing fast except Serbia, Bosnia, etc. -- too much mafia corruption and Kosovo will be a war zone for a long time even after everyone starts to kiss and make out. The land mines are all over the place with no documentation. Anyway, I hope Hampton Rds. cities can learn to work together on their future plans to develop along the Elizabeth River and James River. It seems to me that some sort of monthly meeting is needed between all the cities here, to discuss plans so that they can work together better.
#57
MissSouthNorfolk
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Posted 23 August 2006 - 07:53 AM
I very much agree with your statement. The cities do need to work together. I'm sorry to see you go but maybe you'll come back in the future. Thank you for your hard work on the Belharbour project. It really means a lot to everyone who lives in South Norfolk. It's just what we've all been waiting for. Good luck and hope you will be safe.
#58
spiker3
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Posted 31 August 2006 - 11:33 PM
shame on me When i first heard about this project i thought it had some potential...but from everything i've heard it's obviously lost any potential.
Other topics, new PilotOnline article at SoNo:
LINKAGE HERE
Quote
Eager to transform its waterfront into a local tourist destination, Chesapeake will spend $26 million for public infrastructure improvements on the shores of the Elizabeth River.
The money is part of an agreement to bring a massive waterfront development called Belharbour Station at SoNo to the city. Proponents have talked about making the once-industrial area a hub for local businesses, including plans for a ferry to neighboring shores and an intricate path of trailways.
Yet as city leaders and the project's developer negotiate final details for the agreement, Chesapeake is in an unusual position.
Ordinarily, the city receives millions of dollars for infrastructure for projects of this magnitude. In this case, however, the developer will not contribute any money to offset the public cost of infrastructure..
The money is part of an agreement to bring a massive waterfront development called Belharbour Station at SoNo to the city. Proponents have talked about making the once-industrial area a hub for local businesses, including plans for a ferry to neighboring shores and an intricate path of trailways.
Yet as city leaders and the project's developer negotiate final details for the agreement, Chesapeake is in an unusual position.
Ordinarily, the city receives millions of dollars for infrastructure for projects of this magnitude. In this case, however, the developer will not contribute any money to offset the public cost of infrastructure..
Wow, developers are paying ZERO for infrastructure?
That'll sit well with the pilotonline bloggers
Edited by spiker3, 31 August 2006 - 11:34 PM.
#59
vdogg
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 03:48 AM
spiker3, on Sep 1 2006, 01:33 AM, said:
Wow, developers are paying ZERO for infrastructure? That'll sit well with the pilotonline bloggers
That'll sit well with the pilotonline bloggers#60
spiker3
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 09:10 AM
that was in reference to TownE Center at greenbrier, you moved the post cuz i didnt see the SoNo thread. Apologies
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