258 replies to this topic

[convulso]

thanks for the welcome.

it sounds as though TIF initiatives are most likely to be successful in cities that have most of their actual metros inside the city limits (tucson being a good example). something like this would never work in my hometown of birmingham AL, since literally less than 25 percent of the metro's 1.3 million population actually lives inside the city - hence the revenue is generated on the outskirts while the city itself languishes.

come to think of it, i don't even know whether my area (in tucson) falls within a corporate limit or not. it's foothills, north of the river rd. city limit boundary. it reminds me a lot of the sort of posh urban flight area that appeals so strongly to the rich types in Bham. there's a lot of growth (such as it is) in that direction; i wonder how much of it goes to the city vs. pima county.....i have a lot to learn.

[colin]

Actually, Tucson Metro has over 1/3 of its population outside of the city limits.
2003 estimates:
Tucson: 514,725
Tucson Metro: 892,798

Tucson Metro includes Marana (40,000+), Oro Valley (25,000+), Catalina Foothills (50,000+), Casas Adobes (50,000+), Sahuarita (20,000+), unincorporated West Tucson (Picture Rocks, Tucson Estates, Three Points), Vail and, I believe Benson. The census MSA also includes Santa Cruz and most of Pinal County as well.
The city limits is generally right along River Road. The TIF allows state tax money on good purchased in the city to be used for Rio Nuevo. This means that all businesses inside the city (including all malls except Foothills and La Encantada) are potentially subject to the tax.
The threat to annex the Foothills has always been there, and there have even been incorporation movements. If it does ever happen, it won't be for a few years.
People in the Foothills historically don't come Downtown very often, so they wouldn't really get any benefit from Rio Nuevo projects. Tucson's somewhat culturally segregated that way: people on the east side stay over there, people on the south side stay there, people in the central area stay in their area, and people in the Foothills stay in dem dar hills. Generally, of course, but most people I've met living in their areas, stay in their areas and are typically unaware of what's happening outside of their area (me included, as I rarely go east of Wilmot or north of River).
Most of the Rio Nuevo residential projects seems catered towards new people coming into town, and people speculating. Few people are going to say "Now I can finally move Downtown!" especially since most of these condos will cost the same as their house.

[MJLO]

The description you gave, of how people stay in the same areas, and don't know what's going on outside of them, is pretty characteristic thru out the country.

[convulso]

it's not characteristic of me (but i have 50,000 miles on a 6 month-old car). i imagine it is very accurate of many people in settled suburbs, urban cores with full services, etc.

my hope in learning more about tucson from the start is to become familiar and comfortable with as much of the city as i can, so that when that one-year apartment lease is up, if i want to move downtown, i'll be in a better position to.

[colin]

Downtown renovation subsidies criticized
http://www.azstarnet...ailystar/131317

Very critical article of Rio Nuevo in today's Daily Star also with a nice map of some Rio Nuevo projects (popup-linked on the right). It seems that the Star has completely jumped ship on Rio Nuevo at this point.
The article is very justified in pointing out that almost all projects are residential in nature, this despite the office occupancy rate Downtown hovering above 90% for the past few years. The only Downtown office project to pop up since I've been around was the Oil Tower's twin to be built on what is now the concrete slab at the northwest corner of Stone and Broadway. That tower was originally intended when the Oil Tower was built (in the early '80's, I believe) but never went through for various reasons.
The parking garage mentioned in the article is the Pennington Garage, which, although painted an ugly greenish color and doesn't match with anything Downtown, also serves as a mixed-use development with some retail space on the ground floor (where Little Poca Cosa moved).
I personally feel like the goals are a little outdated: the mass of condos was to try to cash in on the real estate boom, and now that it's about to bust, these projects won't end up making money as the demand for high-end real estate Downtown (and everywhere else) collapses. I think a lot of people want to move to Downtown Tucson, but not into a $350,000 condo. Diversification would be the best route at this point, IMHO.

[MJLO]

so I guess I'm not really clear, is there alot of developement going on in downtown Tucson?  Sounds like alot of it is smoke and mirrors.

[colin]

MJLO, on May 30 2006, 02:20 PM, said:

so I guess I'm not really clear, is there alot of developement going on in downtown Tucson?  Sounds like alot of it is smoke and mirrors.

Well, if you come to Tucson, you certainly wouldn't see a bunch of cranes and construction equipment Downtown. Almost everything is in the planning stages. I often speak like it's happening because I remain optimistic that something will be built Downtown, if only a couple of small mixed-use developments.
However, the Mercado District, which is a little to the west on Congress Street is actually happening. The frames are already up on many houses. Same with Paseo Estrella, which is further south. And Armory Park Del Sol is totally built out, I believe. (BTW, all of these are on the Rio Nuevo project map on the City's web site)
Some things are happening, but nothing overly spectacular.

[convulso]

it seems (easy for the new resident to say this) that tucson is in an optimistic position right now. reading the papers (and these threads), everyone seems to be having the big, inevitable, critical mass discussion of Where To Go From Here - perhaps in response to the desire to grow in a way antithetical to the path phoenix has taken?

in the short time i've been here, i've seen land use issues dominate newspapers and public radio on an almost daily basis. i haven't been here long enough to know if it's the kind of place where everybody's always talking but never actually doing, or if things take off. things taking off isn't always such a great thing, though. tucson has a lot to lose by doing things wrong. phoenix at least didn't play such a crucial cultural / historic role way back when, when it decided to mismanage its growth, so it didn't so much lose what it had as just not gain very much, except the salt river's water supply.

[MJLO]

I wouldn't be so quick to say that Phoenixs' growth has been entirely mis-managed.  The city is sprawling, but Phoenix's burbs have densities consistent with core cities, like Dallas, and  Houston.  Unlike Atlanta and Detroit where you have exurbs,  rural parts in between pockets of sprawl, from the air you can see controlled growth, grids, and developements all kind of stop in a line, and then nothing.  Granted, you have 3.5 million people in an area larger than the state of New Jersey,  But they are even starting infill older areas with more dense developements.  I think this kind of urban planning and policy is the main reason why Phoenix, is ranked so comparitively low on surveys where they score sprawl.

sorry for going off topic on the Tuscon thread guys.

Edited by MJLO, 30 May 2006 - 05:26 PM.

[colin]

Most in Tucson would definitely like it to be the antithesis of Phoenix. I certainly would.
Many people here absolutely loathe Phoenix and everything it represents: heavy traffic, long commutes, sprawl, chain stores, high housing costs, crime-ridden (which is why you see a lot of Phoenix crime on the local news and in the local paper), lack of art/culture, snobby (sorry, but it is the going stereotype). A lot of the drive behind the whole anti-sprawl/infill movement here really is "We don't want to become Phoenix". It's something everyone agrees on.
There is certainly infill in Phoenix, but there are some areas that are just ridiculous, especially in the East Valley and the West Valley near Avondale, and that's what people see. Just about everyone is Tucson is very committed to not letting their area look like that, and it hopefully never will.
As far as land use being the hot topic, it's always been a hot topic, but is just the flavor of the month now. A few months ago, it was water. Before that, it was crime. Before that, it was school funding. There's always something that the media wants to use to keep people tuned in and their subscription quotas covered, but they are all certainly important issues. That's how I see it, at least.
Since this is still a Tucson thread, I also wanted to point out the Houghton Area Master Plan (HAMP). The powers-that-be (foresightful as they are) figured that the vast swath of undeveloped, mostly state-owned land on the south east side will be developed. It's just a matter of time. So, they put together a smart growth plan which essentially is a master planned community on a large scale. The plan occassionally gets mentioned in the papers, especially more recently with the Fantasy Island stuff (an unofficial mountain biking course on state trust land which was saved recently by some nice planners).
This is the City's web site on HAMP. You can also Google "hamp tucson" and find quite a bit about it. I think it's great!

[Mith242]

colin, on May 25 2006, 10:19 AM, said:

"New River" of course!

Rio Nuevo is a TIF (tax increment financing) district where the money is funnelled to aide Downtown development in Tucson. For these TIFs, there are generally some pretty specific limits on what money can be used for, but I've never been able to find such a description for Rio Nuevo.
Rio Nuevo is different from other TIFs (even in Tucson) in that it uses sales taxes instead of property taxes to fund itself, mostly from two of Tucson's malls (mainly Park Place, which you'll understand if you've ever been to El Con). I'm also not really sure why Tucson Mall doesn't participate in this as it is also in the city limits. There are other funding sources, but those are the main ones.
TIFs have expirations though and must be extended pretty often, which is what we're seeing now. Rio Nuevo's a bit of a cash hog, so I'm sure that the state has some other plans for the money. How about a 10-lane beltway around Phoenix that crosses the Verde three times, has a causeway over Lake Pleasant and goes through Snaketown for potential housing development?

One of the politicos heavily involved with this thing could probably explain it much better than I can. I'm not overly aware of all the intricacies and eccentricities of this whole funding nightmare. Go to any meeting involving development though, and you'll probably hear the word "TIF" at some point. They love their acronyms.
Here's a Weekly article on Rio Nuevo and its TIF from '99. Its project info is now outdated, but the TIF description is still pretty spot-on:
http://www.tucsonwee...t?oid=oid:41840

[edit]
I was trying to find another example of TIF in Tucson, but couldn't, although I know that the re-construction of the MLK public housing apartments Downtown has one, and I believe the proposed Depot Plaza has one.
Anyway, if you're more interested in TIF, Downtown San Diego used it several years ago for its rennaisance. If you can get past the "Download the TIFF version of this" links on Google, you should be able to find something about it. I also believe Portland used TIF for some things, maybe even its MAX light rail line.
[/edit]

Have there been any opposition to the TIFs?  They've been a little more controversial over where I live about them.  Some people really don't like the idea of them.  I was curious if this applied to other areas like Tucson as well.

[colin]

Mith242, on May 31 2006, 03:31 PM, said:

Have there been any opposition to the TIFs?  They've been a little more controversial over where I live about them.  Some people really don't like the idea of them.  I was curious if this applied to other areas like Tucson as well.

I've never heard any complaints about the actual idea of the TIF here, but maybe the circles I move in are too liberal. People here seem to resent anything from property taxes being used, because they somehow think that it's actually raising what they pay as opposed to the actual property value.

[Mith242]

colin, on May 31 2006, 06:55 PM, said:

I've never heard any complaints about the actual idea of the TIF here, but maybe the circles I move in are too liberal. People here seem to resent anything from property taxes being used, because they somehow think that it's actually raising what they pay as opposed to the actual property value.

My town is a rather liberal town.  I'm no expert on TIFs but I was thinking it had more to do with the fact that the money was going to projects instead of going to the schools.  There was a lot of debate not just in my city but my whole state about TIFs a while back ago.

[MJLO]

Ok, are TIFs something similar to a developement authority giving tax credits on infrastructure improvements?  I guess I'm trying to put into terms that I would understand.  Are they unique to the west?  Back east we have developement corporations who give Brownfields and such.  What's the diff. Another way of saying Rennasaince zone perhaps?

[Mith242]

MJLO, on May 31 2006, 09:19 PM, said:

Ok, are TIFs something similar to a developement authority giving tax credits on infrastructure improvements?  I guess I'm trying to put into terms that I would understand.  Are they unique to the west?  Back east we have developement corporations who give Brownfields and such.  What's the diff. Another way of saying Rennasaince zone perhaps?

I do know TIFs just aren't in the west.  It seems like I've heard other states having TIFs as well.  But I don't think all states have them.

[MJLO]

Hey Colin, convulso.  Any updates on Tucson developements?

[convulso]

MJLO, on Jun 13 2006, 06:45 PM, said:

Hey Colin, convulso.  Any updates on Tucson developements?

i'm out of touch, especially this week. pass to colin....

i'll find out what i can in the meantime...

[colin]

MJLO, on Jun 13 2006, 04:45 PM, said:

Hey Colin, convulso.  Any updates on Tucson developements?

The rainbow bridge people have a public meeting next week some time. I got the mailer yesterday, but haven't read it yet, so I don't even know when it is.
They offered to come give a presentation to my neighborhood association, but there wasn't much interest.

[MJLO]

are there any condo or loft projects proposed for Tucson?

[colin]

Okay, so it's not a public meeting, it's instead some sort of "cultural festival" with the rainbow bridge and other science center projects. 10am-2pm this Saturday at the Riverpark Inn (I-10 south of Congress, where Bennigan's is) if you're interested.
http://www.flandrau....news.php?id=129

I'm actually off to Phoenix this weekend, but I'm going to try to make it for a part.