258 replies to this topic

[colin]

MJLO, on Jun 15 2006, 12:13 AM, said:

are there any condo or loft projects proposed for Tucson?

Presidio Terrace has a public meeting with the City Council on the 27th, I believe (I'll check my dates and edit it if I'm wrong).
I'll hopefully make this one. I'm always out of town when there's some important meeting regarding this project.

Other projects:
44 Broadway
I don't know that this one will go anywhere. 44 Broadway has had an empty leasing office for at least two years.

The Lofts at Fifth Avenue is certainly happening. Drive down Sixth Street just west of Fourth Avenue, and that big pile of demolition is what used to be the YWCA and will soon be the new structure.

Academy Lofts is an Armory Park loft project. I don't know what the deal with this is, but their web site is certainly busted.

I may ride the bike out to these projects, including a couple of the existing projects,in a couple of days to get some pictures.

More on Downtown housing here:
http://www.downtownt...living/housing/

[MJLO]

I know I must sound like a broken record here, do any of those being built have any height?

[colin]

MJLO, on Jun 15 2006, 10:53 PM, said:

I know I must sound like a broken record here, do any of those being built have any height?

Presidio Terrace will be about 100', slightly taller than my building across the street (quite immasculating).
44 Broadway and Academy are both converted spaces, so they won't be very high.
5th Avenue will be only a couple of stories high, I believe.
The Nimbus proposal was to be about 100' as well, and Depot Plaza was going to be at least 5 stories.

I think we'll have to settle for mid-rises here before we can even think of getting some high-rises in.

[colin]

As I said I would, I took a nice bike ride with my camera this morning and hit a few projects around Downtown.

Academy Lofts from 16th Street:

From 6th Avenue:

I'm not sure if this is part of the development, but it's next door to the north:

The front from 16th Street:

I like their tag line:


Ice House Lofts:
It appears that they preserved one portion of the original structure:


Things found inside are also used as outdoor sculptures:


This was a development on East 17th directly across from Ice House Lofts that I didn't know about:


In between the 16th and 17th Street portions of the development, there was this awesome old adobe, which was fenced off and only accessible from an alley:


The Lofts at 5th Avenue:
The Muse sign is still up, which is surprising. The Muse was an artist studio and performance complex. It was quite the eyesore, but was pretty vital to the neighborhood's artist community nonetheless.


Depot Plaza:
This is the site. I've drawn on the picture to kind of map out where it is. The developer also wants to close off Congress Street here (and make Broadway two-way) to connect the project to the depot:


Presidio Terrace:
The work done at the site was, I believe, to excavate for achaeological remains, of which very few were found. There's a City Council meeting on this in a couple of weeks:


44 Broadway:




The perpetually-empty leasing office, which is also, ironically, in a separate building:

Edited by colin, 17 June 2006 - 12:06 PM.

[colin]

One more note:
I went to Flandrau's "Cultural Plaza Festival" today before coming up here to Phoenix. The festival was small, short (10am-2pm) and mainly kid-oriented. However, both Flandrau and the City had booths set up.
I spent about 15 minutes talking to the Rio Nuevo people, namely Albert Elias, Director of Urban Planning & Design for the City (he gave me his card), about half of which was spent with another guy who came up and aired his complaints about the bridge. I was happy to hear him speak, because it sort of confirmed my belief that most in the Downtown area love the Science Center idea, but not the bridge.
The Rio Nuevo guys weren't overly enthusiastic about it either, at times agreeing with the criticism I, or the other guy, offered.
I could have gone and talked to Flandrau, but, the fact is, it's not so much in their hands anymore. It became clear a while ago that they didn't have quite enough money to finance the Science Center and the bridge, and would need Rio Nuevo and/or the City to front some of the $$ necessary. Therefore, the City could make or break the project.

A few things about Rio Nuevo that I did not know before:
- El Mercado will actually have a mercado, although it will probably be a traditional retail store.
- The TCC area is slated to have at least one residential mid-rise or possible tower.
- The Rio Nuevo people are absolutely insistent on a new arena and they don't seem to really have a contingency plan for what to do with the plot if it falls through.
- I was especially curious about the future of the Turquoise Trail (a marked, circular interpretive trail going by important historical sites in the Downtown and El Presidio area) as in would it be developed further. One of the guys didn't even seem to know what it was. I guess that answered my question.
- They're calling an adobe restoration on Church Avenue "El Presidio". I don't like that, as El Presidio is the name of the adjacent neighborhood, and this could lead to quite a bit of confusion.
- There was once a supermarket at the southwest corner of Congress and I-10. It was demolished around 1990.

[DeanofTucson]

TIFs are common throughout the U.S., particularly in the East, and they normally capture increased property valuations, but out West, they are less common, and in Arizona, only Tucson has one.  The conservative state legislature tried to sunset the already limited TIF capabilities of the state back in 1999, but Tucson had some ideas about revitalizing the decayed area west of the Santa Cruz, and argued successfully to be given a year to put a TIF district in front of the voters.  It created a gerrymandered district to capture the increment of sales taxes generated along Broadway, primarily from two malls, and the TIF district had a ten-year life.  

It eventually occurred to the city that they could actually use TIF to revitalize downtown, not just build a nice park on the west side, and it became clear that after the initial ten years' worth of money (from the period of 2003-2013) was spent on museums, rebuilt historic sites, the Fox Theatre and the UA science center, there wasn't anything left to really do something to rebuild downtown.  

So they had the idea of asking the state legislature to extend the term from 10 years to 40.  The inclusion of the malls has stuck in the craw of legislators, particularly conservative Republicans who control both houses, and the fact that the city has done so little with Rio Nuevo to this point, has made it a harder sell.  

I read back further in the thread, in January, where someone said that losing Karen Thoreson was a blow. Actually that was the best thing that could have happened to Rio Nuevo, because she was an egomaniac with no vision and a lot of stupid ideas.  

The University of Arizona got a little too full of themselves, and hired a hot-shot architect to design a bridge containing its science center and linking the west side with the downtown side.  They didn't bother to give him a budget, apparently, and he came up with a design that they say will cost $350 million, but will probably be double that.  The neighborhoods are against it, and the smart money says it won't happen.   The university just needs to worry about building a nice science center, and not go with a 370-foot suspension bridge, dangling the science center over Interstate 10.

44 Broadway will get built, but the Lofts on 5th Avenue have stalled due to the slowdown of the housing market.  Demolition on the old Muse building has stopped, and I wouldn't be surprised if what's left standing is still there in six months.  The Muse sign is still up because developers generally leave signs up until they're ready to replace them--the way the sign permit process works, you're better off directly replacing a sign that has an existing permit rather than removing a sign and then starting over with the permit process later.  

The Post on Congress is going through its rezoning, and it will be about five stories, and 40 condos.  The picture labeled "Depot Plaza" is actually of the "Plaza Centro" site.   Depot Plaza is west of Hotel Congress, and has been a major clusterf***.   The city manager has moved patiently but deliberately to clean up Thoreson's messes, and DP is at the top of that list.  

The owner of Nimbus is imploding himself with a bitter PR campaign against everybody he thinks has wronged him, including the city and the Arizona Daily Star.  While he's been hanging himself, the owner of Gentle Ben's has managed to get the approvals for a new microbrewery near Ice House Lofts.

[DeanofTucson]

Also, the adobe reconstruction of "El Presidio de Tucson" isn't stealing the name of the neighborhood.  The El Presidio neighborhood was named for the presidio which was where Tucson was founded with a walled compound.  They're re-creating a portion of the presidio as a tourist site, and I don't know what else you would call it.  If anything, the neighborhood has taken the name of the historical element that Rio Nuevo is re-creating.  They're both named for the same historic artifact.  

They're rebuilding the northeast corner of the presidio compound, which was 600 feet on each side, and encompassed the area now filled in with City Hall (at the SW corner), the old Pima County Courthouse (at the SE corner), and the Tucson Museum of Art Historic Block (the NW corner).

Once that project is built, hopefully rather than causing confusion, El Presidio de Tucson will raise awareness of the historic significance of the neighborhood.

[MJLO]

Welcome DeanofTucson!  Thank you for explaining Rio Nuevo a little more for me.   You sound like you have alot of information on Tucson to share,  I really hope you stick around my friend.  It's always great to get new people!

[DeanofTucson]

No problem!  I was googling something about Depot Plaza and stumbled on this thread.  I was impressed by how much concern there was about the high-rises and the various projects (especially Colin posting all the photos and even labeling one of them for the posting), but along with the passion that was evident in the thread, there was a little misinformation thrown in, so I couldn't resist.

It's good to see that some people "get it" as far as the density thing goes, because it seems that even some who live in Downtown want it to stay a sleepy, low-scale place.  The fact that the RTA will pay for the streetcar is a big deal, and there will be a lot of "densifying" of the corridor that it runs along.  As long as the City can get out of the way and facilitate it, it's inevitable that TOD--transit-oriented development--will occur in spades within a few blocks of the streetcar.   It's been proven in Portland and elsewhere that developers respond to the fixed-rail local transit line.

I would like to hear more from Colin about his conversation with the Rio Nuevo people about the arena, and learn who he actually spoke with.

I'll check back in occasionally and see what you all are blogging about.

[colin]

Hi Dean! Welcome to the forum. It's certainly good to see another Arizona person, and definitely good to see another Tucson resident on here.

DeanofTucson, on Jun 18 2006, 02:49 AM, said:

I read back further in the thread, in January, where someone said that losing Karen Thoreson was a blow. Actually that was the best thing that could have happened to Rio Nuevo, because she was an egomaniac with no vision and a lot of stupid ideas.  

Yeah, that was me. I didn't mean that losing her was a blow to Rio Nuevo, but rather a blow to the public image of it. It's never good PR when someone up high jumps ship. I also heard bad things about her though.

DeanofTucson, on Jun 18 2006, 02:49 AM, said:

The neighborhoods are against it, and the smart money says it won't happen.   The university just needs to worry about building a nice science center, and not go with a 370-foot suspension bridge, dangling the science center over Interstate 10.

I really don't think that it will happen either. People won't stand for the City putting up the money for something like that. I don't know about Menlo Park, Barrio Hollywood or Barrio Viejo, but El Presidio hasn't taken an official position on it yet, although we're not quite as affected as the other neighborhoods.

DeanofTucson, on Jun 18 2006, 02:49 AM, said:

The Post on Congress is going through its rezoning, and it will be about five stories, and 40 condos.  The picture labeled "Depot Plaza" is actually of the "Plaza Centro" site.   Depot Plaza is west of Hotel Congress, and has been a major clusterf***.   The city manager has moved patiently but deliberately to clean up Thoreson's messes, and DP is at the top of that list.

You're right. Depot Plaza is the MLK Apartments re-do. I saw the head of Tucson's housing department come talk about the project a few months ago, and she seemed very frustrated about how things are going. The big issue with this, I think, is having to move a lot of these people out to the land fill on Silverbell Road (across from the sewage plant, no less). But the developers, unfortunately, aren't going to make any money if they don't cut down on the number of public housing units.

DeanofTucson, on Jun 18 2006, 02:49 AM, said:

The owner of Nimbus is imploding himself with a bitter PR campaign against everybody he thinks has wronged him, including the city and the Arizona Daily Star.  While he's been hanging himself, the owner of Gentle Ben's has managed to get the approvals for a new microbrewery near Ice House Lofts.

I read about that breakdown that he had in front of the City Council and just laughed. He was absent from the next public meeting, supposedly due to some sort of foot injury or something. Things have been quiet for a while on that.
My boss had told me that Ben's had already laid down their foundation. I went looking for it on Saturday though and didn't see anything. He may have been wrong (most likely), but I may have just forgotten where he said it was exactly.
That area is turning into quite the unlikely hot spot though. 17th Street Market's joke about their location ("Inconveniently located on 17th Street...") may no longer ring true soon.

DeanofTucson, on Jun 18 2006, 10:34 AM, said:

I would like to hear more from Colin about his conversation with the Rio Nuevo people about the arena, and learn who he actually spoke with.

Albert Elias. I don't know who the other guy was, but he was also wearing a Rio Nuevo shirt.

[DeanofTucson]

Jim Counts of Nimbus mysteriously decided to have knee surgery the day of the public meeting in front of the Mayor and Council's Downtown/Rio Nuevo subcommittee, to repair damage from a car accident sustained two months prior.  Now he's trashing his partners, as well as the City, neighbors, and the Arizona Daily Star.

The new Gentle Ben's is at the southeast corner of 16th Street and Toole/Euclid, in a building that looks like several quanset huts melted together.  It really is a difficult area to access.

I think what the city's housing director is frustrated with is that after four years of talking about this, they can't afford to build the new public housing building near the MLK apartments, even with the federal grant.

[colin]

Speaking of MLK: Last three face moving from MLK

The story takes no sides on the issue, just remarks that only two are left in the building. It will be a bit of a shame to lose it. It's certainly not the prettiest building in Tucson, but it had character.
I agree with one of the comment posters though: the whole thing smells like gentrification. I mentioned before that, even if new public housing gets built at the site, the best plan that's been offered still cuts the numbers quite a bit, thus keeping most of the old residents out of Downtown.

Also this this morning: New plans for Downtown MLK site met with ire

The article discusses the problems they've faced with the MLK/Depot Plaza project.
What's going to happen is that either:
- the building will stand vacant for at least a year while the developers and the City mull over the plans
- the building will be demolished and we'll have a long-term vacant lot at the site, while the developers and the City mull over the plans
- something regrettable will be put up

I think the first choice will happen, personally.

Edited by colin, 20 June 2006 - 09:44 AM.

[DeanofTucson]

colin, on Jun 20 2006, 10:35 AM, said:

Speaking of MLK: Last three face moving from MLK

The story takes no sides on the issue, just remarks that only two are left in the building. It will be a bit of a shame to lose it. It's certainly not the prettiest building in Tucson, but it had character.
I agree with one of the comment posters though: the whole thing smells like gentrification. I mentioned before that, even if new public housing gets built at the site, the best plan that's been offered still cuts the numbers quite a bit, thus keeping most of the old residents out of Downtown.

Also this this morning: New plans for Downtown MLK site met with ire

The article discusses the problems they've faced with the MLK/Depot Plaza project.
What's going to happen is that either:
- the building will stand vacant for at least a year while the developers and the City mull over the plans
- the building will be demolished and we'll have a long-term vacant lot at the site, while the developers and the City mull over the plans
- something regrettable will be put up

I think the first choice will happen, personally.

[DeanofTucson]

Not that I'm trying to discourage use of this urban planet blog regarding downtown Tucson, but I noticed that there is a new "Forum" page on the Tucson Downtown Alliance website, at www.downtowntucson.org.  
/alliance/forum

That might be a place to find others interested in Downtown to visit with, and broaden the circle of dialogue.

[DeanofTucson]

I hear there will be a vote tonight on the TIF extension bill at the state senate.  Keep your fingers crossed.  Getting this money to build well-designed structured parking will do more to promote high-rise housing in the Downtown area than anything.   (along with the positive impact of the streetcar)

DeanofTucson, on Jun 21 2006, 07:51 PM, said:

Not that I'm trying to discourage use of this urban planet blog regarding downtown Tucson, but I noticed that there is a new "Forum" page on the Tucson Downtown Alliance website, at www.downtowntucson.org.  
/alliance/forum

That might be a place to find others interested in Downtown to visit with, and broaden the circle of dialogue.

[MJLO]

hehe dean, you can advertise other forums all you want, as long as you keep chit chat going on here.

[colin]

The extension went through in the Senate, although not for as long as the City had wanted.
Senate sends extra $600M Downtown

A lot of the hardline Republicans, especially those from the Valley, are still very upset about the extension, insisting that the TIF itself is "illegal." At least it got through, so the City can rest easy on that subject that their funding source is secure for the time being.

[DeanofTucson]

For all the complaining of the Senate Republicans about the TIF gobbling up the sales tax money generated at Park Place and El Con "Mall" (Target/Home Depot/Doughnut Center), they ended up not forcing the City to give up the money generated along Broadway.  They just shortened the term, which proves that it was all about the total diversion of money.  The malls were just a distraction from their real issue.

colin, on Jun 22 2006, 09:29 AM, said:

The extension went through in the Senate, although not for as long as the City had wanted.
Senate sends extra $600M Downtown

A lot of the hardline Republicans, especially those from the Valley, are still very upset about the extension, insisting that the TIF itself is "illegal." At least it got through, so the City can rest easy on that subject that their funding source is secure for the time being.

[colin]

The City Council meeting on Presidio Terrace is this Tuesday, I believe at 5:30pm. There's no telling when it will come up on the agenda.
This represents the last hurdle the project has to jump before beginning construction.

Also, this was in Saturday's Daily Star:
Rio Nuevo 'Depot Plaza' gone
Now that Rio Nuevo has its money, the private/market-rate housing has been removed from the design. It had shrunk to almost nothing, but the building site is now planned to be just an open area.
I see it as mainly a negative thing:
1. This means that the prospect of using private funds for the project has been all but wiped out
2. The integrated (market-rate and subsidized) housing plan is gone, and it will now be solely public housing, as it is now.

[MJLO]

why has it had to go thru so many hurdles?