242 replies to this topic

[yadkinv]

Wow, Sosnicks.  That became Thalhimers in the early 1950s didn't it?

[intcvlcphlga]

StevenRocks, on Jan 4 2006, 05:09 PM, said:

That was the mindset where people didn't shop as much, stores were smaller and locally-owned and downtown served a smaller regional market.  That model does not work today.

Nowadays, people want a greater variety of goods from stores and shop a lot more often. Shoehorning that kind of retail into downtown would destroy it whether or not people parked and walked to the stores.  

Trying to pull the old downtown way of thinking onto Hanes Mall Blvd, where land is more plentiful and there is no economic incentive to encourage density would just cost retailers and developers more money with no real benefit to business.

I'm not advocating putting a grid on Hanes Mall Blvd.  Like Transitman, I would be in favor of demolishing it all.  I would also argue that your post makes assumptions that are not necessarily based in fact.  The model of the urban, locally-owned retail and national chain shopping does work today.  It exists throughout New York, Washington, DC, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, etc.   Companies like Target and Home Depot have developed urban models that exist side-by-side with chain boutiques, local stores, restaurants, etc.  And, there is an economic incentive to the taxpayers to encourage density.  By clamping down on sprawl and encouraging density, the city does not have to pay to extend the infrastructure out to every new subdivision and strip mall thereby providing more greenspace and limiting pollution.

[StevenRocks]

intcvlcphlga, on Jan 4 2006, 05:51 PM, said:

I'm not advocating putting a grid on Hanes Mall Blvd.  Like Transitman, I would be in favor of demolishing it all.  I would also argue that your post makes assumptions that are not necessarily based in fact.  The model of the urban, locally-owned retail and national chain shopping does work today.  It exists throughout New York, Washington, DC, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, etc.   Companies like Target and Home Depot have developed urban models that exist side-by-side with chain boutiques, local stores, restaurants, etc.  And, there is an economic incentive to the taxpayers to encourage density.  By clamping down on sprawl and encouraging density, the city does not have to pay to extend the infrastructure out to every new subdivision and strip mall thereby providing more greenspace and limiting pollution.

I'm sorry, but the only citeis you mentioned where a model urban retail mix exists are New York, Chicago and San Francisco.  Washington, DC and Boston are each losing large department stores in their center cores by the end of this year with no replacement in sight, and besides, they had large stores, wide streets and developoable land in their center cities to begin with.

Winston-Salem's largest store back in the day may have been Sears with around 100,000 square feet of selling space, but thet is actually off the main downtown grid and was designed as a suburban type store with a rather large parking lot on its roof, mostly because land at the time was (and still is) expensive and hard to get in downtown Winston.

The other large stores, including Davis, Belk-Stevens and Thalhimers, were about the size of a large modern supermarket but were stacked onto multiple levels to save space.  Even if all these buildings still were available for retail use, they would be unsuited for the size and number of stores that people expect in moden retail.

To get the right mix downtown, as you describe it, would entail leveling most of downtown proper and replacing it woth new buildings and parking garages able to fit stores the size of Target and the like.  In order to get it to work, you would be destroying downtown to build back downtown, which seems a little silly, expensive, and excessive, considering the amount of retail already in the city.  Plus, it was already tried in the 1960s, to no great gain to the city, save for a couple of skyscrapers.

Just so you know, I'm not poo-pooing on your dreams for downtown retail.  I think that there is a time and place for urban-style development.  Whether that place is downtown Winston-Salem or the time is now is irrelevant to this conversation.  My point is that it's not just about stacking up suburbia in a grid, because if it was, it would effectively kill what's trying to be saved.  Cities are more than malls, they're long lasting, inventive, unique.  one of the key criticisms of the "new" New York is that it's remarkably similar to Paramus in retail mix, except that you can't see your car from the door of the store.

Anybody that wants to pull off a project like redeveloping downtown as a retail center or drastically altering Hanes Mall Blvd for that matter, needs to realize that in order to give a new project of this stature legs, it's got to be about more than "It'll be pretty" or "It'll be 'sophisticated' "  You have to present developers with a compelling reason to increase their costs and you have to convince consumers that all this rigamarole is worth their time.  Otherwise, It'll never get past the conceptual stage or, in a worse scenario, if you build it, nobody will come.

[Hotlanta]

Well said Steven! Plus think of all the money it would cost to demolish EVERYTHING on Hanes Mall Blvd. It's too preposterous! You know the definition of a boulevard is a tree lined street with gardens and trees in the middle. I'd like to see the DOT scrape up some of their last remaining few dollars and landscape this road tastefully and make it look really pleasant.

[ILoveCallingNCHome]

Quote

I'd like to see the DOT scrape up some of their last remaining few dollars and landscape this road tastefully and make it look really pleasant.

As bad as some of NC's roads and bridges are right now, seriously-I would certainly hope that the DOT would not spend money on landscaping any more than is nessessary.  Sounds like a project for the developers to chip into, not taxpayers.  I am tired of pot holes and roads that are crumbling.

StevenRocks, on Jan 4 2006, 05:09 PM, said:

That was the mindset where people didn't shop as much, stores were smaller and locally-owned and downtown served a smaller regional market.  That model does not work today.

Nowadays, people want a greater variety of goods from stores and shop a lot more often. Shoehorning that kind of retail into downtown would destroy it whether or not people parked and walked to the stores.  

Trying to pull the old downtown way of thinking onto Hanes Mall Blvd, where land is more plentiful and there is no economic incentive to encourage density would just cost retailers and developers more money with no real benefit to business.

I agree with this.  People and times are different.

Edited by ILoveCallingNCHome, 04 January 2006 - 10:36 PM.

[Tre 4]

What's going on with Wynnsong expansion.

Edited by Tre 4, 21 January 2006 - 10:01 AM.

[Hotlanta]

Tre 4, on Jan 20 2006, 11:00 PM, said:

What's going on with Wynnsong expansion.

Went by there last night and they imported some dirt to level the area out and there were survey markers everywhere.

Edited by Hotlanta, 21 January 2006 - 03:42 PM.

[Shawn&Zae]

Is the Department of Transportation widening the bridge over Business 40? I just noticed that last week when I made my trip to Wal-Mart to get some things for school.

[Hotlanta]

Shawn&Zae, on Jan 22 2006, 01:13 AM, said:

Is the Department of Transportation widening the bridge over Business 40? I just noticed that last week when I made my trip to Wal-Mart to get some things for school.

You mean I-40 don't you? Yes they are widening the bridge to accomodate all of the traffic on the current overcrowded 2 lane section. I am just so surprised that the NCDOT didn't make the bridge wider when they redid the I-40/Bus 40/421 multiplex interchange and the widening of I-40. I also noticed that when you are driving towards Wal-Mart from Target/Home Depot that right as you are getting to cross the bridge, on your right they are filling in that area with dirt to make it level for future growth. I wonder what may go in there? I also heard a big box chain that is not in the W-S area is eyeing the site across from Shoppes at Little Creek for a new store. I went by the future Dick's Sporting Goods store and that place is HUGE! It's going to have an escalator and all. That will run Sport's Authority in to the ground! Does anybody know what is going in the old Don Pablos site on Hanes Mall Blvd near McDonalds? They are constructing something there that isn't too nice looking or pedestrian friendly.

[Tre 4]

yea I know what you mean Someone told me that the mall dones’t not own the land anymore, but it’s supposed to be a little strip mall, with a small café of some sort and retail Space.  









Beat those SeaHawks !!!!!!!!

[Hotlanta]

Tre 4, on Jan 22 2006, 12:10 PM, said:

yea I know what you mean Someone told me that the mall dones’t not own the land anymore, but it’s supposed to be a little strip mall, with a small café of some sort and retail Space.  

Beat those SeaHawks !!!!!!!!

hmmm that's interesting, a "small" cafe on hanes mall blvd. All I can say is  

[twincity]

the vitamin shoppe, jimmy john's (a gourmet sandwich chain), Chipotle mexican grill, Cold Stone Creamery and a 5th unamed tenant.

yea thats a bad spot for strip retail. i was hoping a new restaurant would go there instead.

anybody heard of this project?

exerpt from journalnow.com

Granite Development LLC, based in Mount Airy, and Facilities Corporation of America, an affiliated company, are ready to begin construction on an office and retail complex on Country Club Road that was announced at least 18 months ago.

Edited by twincity, 23 January 2006 - 01:04 AM.

[transitman]

Tre 4, on Jan 22 2006, 12:10 PM, said:

yea I know what you mean Someone told me that the mall dones’t not own the land anymore, but it’s supposed to be a little strip mall, with a small café of some sort and retail Space.  

MALL + CAFE = OXYMORON.     

[Hotlanta]

twincity, on Jan 23 2006, 01:59 AM, said:

the vitamin shoppe, jimmy john's (a gourmet sandwich chain), Chipotle mexican grill, Cold Stone Creamery and a 5th unamed tenant.

yea thats a bad spot for strip retail. i was hoping a new restaurant would go there instead.

anybody heard of this project?

exerpt from journalnow.com

Granite Development LLC, based in Mount Airy, and Facilities Corporation of America, an affiliated company, are ready to begin construction on an office and retail complex on Country Club Road that was announced at least 18 months ago.

The Cold Stone Creamery should be a good fit for the area and I might go there once in a while. I have heard about the complex on Country Club. It is at the corner of Jonestown and CCR. It's a HUGE site! the rendering on the site looks like it will have retail on the bottom and offices on top meaning it will be two stories.

Edited by Hotlanta, 23 January 2006 - 02:14 PM.

[Tre 4]

Hotlanta, on Jan 23 2006, 03:13 PM, said:

The Cold Stone Creamery should be a good fit for the area and I might go there once in a while. I have heard about the complex on Country Club. It is at the corner of Jonestown and CCR. It's a HUGE site! the rendering on the site looks like it will have retail on the bottom and offices on top meaning it will be two stories.

I would go to Maggie Moo's  It's a little better than cold stone Does anyone know when the jonestown road sit is going to be built

[Hotlanta]

Tre 4, on Jan 24 2006, 07:31 PM, said:

I would go to Maggie Moo's  It's a little better than cold stone Does anyone know when the jonestown road sit is going to be built

Apparently they are already starting construction so I would say this time next year it would be finished.

[Tre 4]

Hotlanta, on Jan 24 2006, 08:45 PM, said:

Apparently they are already starting construction so I would say this time next year it would be finished.

There’s no constriction going on at the corner of Jonestown road and Hanes mall blvd. The church is sill there.

[Hotlanta]

Tre 4, on Jan 25 2006, 09:33 PM, said:

There’s no constriction going on at the corner of Jonestown road and Hanes mall blvd. The church is sill there.

Oh my bad! I thought you meant the corner of Country Club and Jonestown.

[Hotlanta]

Hanes Mall Blvd is going to get a little bit busier with the opening of a Broyhill Funiture Gallery at Shoppes on Little Creek. It is going to be quite a huge store at 50,000 square feet with an opening date of this fall. We have 3 tenants so far for this development and they are Ethan Allen, Texas Land and Cattle, and Broyhill.

Here's the full story.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

finally Chipotle comes to Winston-Salem!