113 replies to this topic

[VistaLakes01]

aussie luke, on Jul 25 2006, 09:33 PM, said:

Well, the Triangle actually has more than just Duke and NC State.  There's also Chapel Hill (aka Carolina or UNC) and Meredith (one of the nation's most prestigious all girls private schools.)

Charlotte's metro does have a few notable schools, but none quite yet on the caliber of the Triangle's.  UNC Charlotte, the Charlotte Research Institute, Johnson and Wales University (culinary arts school,) Davidson College, CPCC (2nd largest community college in the nation,) the Wake Forest College of Business, the North Carolina Research Campus now under construction, and the Charlotte School of Law set to begin classes sometime this year or next.  And USC has plans of opening a business college in Charlotte as well.  Charlotte has a ways to go education wise, but it may someday catch the Triangle because its strong business ties.  I better stop before I get too into Charlotte's pros and cons.

Wester, that's a lot of info on Orlando, and I can say, I pretty much expected that much from Orlando.  A city that thrives on tourism would have to have a strong retail base, it only makes sense.  Charlotte's metro is the home of the largest tourist attraction in NC (which is sadly a mega-mall,) a theme park, and there is a huge draw for NASCAR tourism as well:  Charlotte has Lowes Motor Speedway (probably the second most famous track, only to Daytona) and just recently won the NASCAR Hall of Fame over Atlanta and Daytona.

And also, not to bash your boosterism, but Charlotte also has nearly every store (presently and announced) you just listed that are in Orlando.  Ever city has its niche, but I would hardly list shopping malls as a measure to brag on a city.  

Jacksonville is a bigger big business city than Orlando.  They are similar in that they don't share their metros with other large cities; however, their economies are completely different in the grand scheme.  You make good points about their similarities, but I would class Orlando with cities like Las Vegas that rely a little more heavily on tourism.  Jax fits more into the same class of cities like Charlotte & Atlanta.  They are more business economy driven than anything.  They all three have their strong tourism aspects, but that's only a smaller percentage of their overall economies.  Charlotte has racing, Atlanta has Coke and the aquarium, Jax has its beaches and its historical and cultural tourism like St Augustine.  The major thing that would set Jax away from CLT and ATL is the port.  To that I have little comparison to other than cities like Houston and cities in NE.  Of most cities in the south, Jacksonville may be one of the most resistant to recessions of one form or another.  If tourism drops, it will survive; if the stock market bottoms out, it will survive; if for some strange reason shipping were to dry out, it would still survive.  It is very versatile, and for that reason, it has a very bright future.  The numbers aren't there because the retirement and immigration population isn't moving there in droves quite like most any other city south of Daytona.  When that trend finally dries, Jacksonville will become more dominant.  It just needs something to really spark its growth in its core is all.

aussie luke, on Jul 25 2006, 09:33 PM, said:

Well, the Triangle actually has more than just Duke and NC State.  There's also Chapel Hill (aka Carolina or UNC) and Meredith (one of the nation's most prestigious all girls private schools.)

Charlotte's metro does have a few notable schools, but none quite yet on the caliber of the Triangle's.  UNC Charlotte, the Charlotte Research Institute, Johnson and Wales University (culinary arts school,) Davidson College, CPCC (2nd largest community college in the nation,) the Wake Forest College of Business, the North Carolina Research Campus now under construction, and the Charlotte School of Law set to begin classes sometime this year or next.  And USC has plans of opening a business college in Charlotte as well.  Charlotte has a ways to go education wise, but it may someday catch the Triangle because its strong business ties.  I better stop before I get too into Charlotte's pros and cons.

Wester, that's a lot of info on Orlando, and I can say, I pretty much expected that much from Orlando.  A city that thrives on tourism would have to have a strong retail base, it only makes sense.  Charlotte's metro is the home of the largest tourist attraction in NC (which is sadly a mega-mall,) a theme park, and there is a huge draw for NASCAR tourism as well:  Charlotte has Lowes Motor Speedway (probably the second most famous track, only to Daytona) and just recently won the NASCAR Hall of Fame over Atlanta and Daytona.

And also, not to bash your boosterism, but Charlotte also has nearly every store (presently and announced) you just listed that are in Orlando.  Ever city has its niche, but I would hardly list shopping malls as a measure to brag on a city.  

Jacksonville is a bigger big business city than Orlando.  They are similar in that they don't share their metros with other large cities; however, their economies are completely different in the grand scheme.  You make good points about their similarities, but I would class Orlando with cities like Las Vegas that rely a little more heavily on tourism.  Jax fits more into the same class of cities like Charlotte & Atlanta.  They are more business economy driven than anything.  They all three have their strong tourism aspects, but that's only a smaller percentage of their overall economies.  Charlotte has racing, Atlanta has Coke and the aquarium, Jax has its beaches and its historical and cultural tourism like St Augustine.  The major thing that would set Jax away from CLT and ATL is the port.  To that I have little comparison to other than cities like Houston and cities in NE.  Of most cities in the south, Jacksonville may be one of the most resistant to recessions of one form or another.  If tourism drops, it will survive; if the stock market bottoms out, it will survive; if for some strange reason shipping were to dry out, it would still survive.  It is very versatile, and for that reason, it has a very bright future.  The numbers aren't there because the retirement and immigration population isn't moving there in droves quite like most any other city south of Daytona.  When that trend finally dries, Jacksonville will become more dominant.  It just needs something to really spark its growth in its core is all.

[VistaLakes01]

I guess come to think of it, maybe Jacksonville isn't as big of a rival with Orlando as previously thought.  I mainly got the idea from the Jax media and their wishlist for things "Orlando."  I definetly wouldn't say Charlotte was a rival either, since Charlotte is ranking up their with the amenities that Tampa and Orlando have.  I was under the impression that a lot has been going on in Jax in the past couple of years, reading these threads and the Jax news.  I would say Jax is more on the lines of an Indianapolis (not in the south) but similar in size and growth, and pretty dull.  The fact that Jax didn't have enough hotel rooms to host the super bowl and had to bring in cruise ships should be some indication that a lot more work needs to be done.  The potential is there and I know that a lot of Puerto Rican friends of mine here in Orlando have moved or have friends or relatives that have moved to Jax.  Aslo, my roomate is Puerto Rican and several of his friends have moved to the Carolinas (and he is looking to move to Charlotte or Chattanooga), both cities where friends of his have located recently.  So there is an immigrant thing happening.  Have a good day....( I won't go snooping in to the Jax forum anymore, guess I'm an outsider, I'll have to stick with Orlando and Tampa)

[AuLukey]

metrowester, on Jul 26 2006, 01:27 AM, said:

And sorry, there is no Bloomingdales in Charlotte, in the southeast only Miami. Orlando, Atlanta. No IKEA in North Carolina, the next location in the South after Sunrise is Orlando.  I know the tenant lineup by the Rouse Co.  And upscale mall developer The Taubman Company bases it's tenant lineup on the median income in a 15 mile radius of their centers and if you look at the tenant lineup at Millenia compared to Charlotte's Northlake, Northlake has a very average tenant lineup, very similar to an average mall in this area.  I'm sorry but I base a lot on how I rate a city based on retail, fashion and trendiness.  I now that's what many view favorably about Miami and Atlanta.  It shows the success of the region.  In "Places Rated" cities get extra points for having a Bloomingdales and certain other retailers as well as the number of Starbucks per person.  As well as park space, bike trails, mass transit, downtown foot traffic.  There are many different types of skylines, some are based on height, some on density, but the main issue is how functional is a city center for its residents.

Haha, I'm more and more realizing that this conversation has little to do with Jax so I'll try to keep on subject a little more than I have previously.

One note, Northlake is a new mall, but is not the premier mall in Charlotte, nor is it second in line, probably third.  There isn't a Bloomingdales and IKEA is almost boycotted in NC because of the enormous furniture industry coming from the mountains and foothills of NC.  The state tends to not welcome foreign furniture companies.  I have heard talks of IKEA coming to Charlotte, but that isn't really a huge deal.  As for Bloomingdales, I'm not sure why it isn't in CLT, but oh well.

I completely agree about the functionality of a city's center for its citizens.  That is why Charlotte and Jax are very similar from a city perspective in that their cores are just now gearing more towards their citizens rather than their businesses.  Downtown condos have only recently become popular again in many cities across the nation, CLT and JAX not being exceptions.  Orlando is very similar, and I did not mean to suggest Orlando was solely driven by tourism but that it is undeniably a big part of its identity.  Vegas has had the boom outside of tourism lately that Orlando has seen, so it is just as diverse by those measures.  In fact, it is the fastest growing major metro in the US, Charlotte is second.    I would hope, however, that Orlando's businesses were not only driven by Disney or Universal.  If that were the case and those companies saw hard times, then the whole city would theoretically shut down.  That would not be good.  However, if comparing cities by number of tourists per year, I would bet that Orlando would easily make the top ten, if not the top five.  It isn't ranked, but it is on the list of Wikipedia's top tourism cities in the US along with Miami.  What I find interesting is that Orlando is noted to have beaches as an attraction?  odd.

While Jax and Orlando do have a lot of common, as I said before, I would not put them in the same category.  Orlando is the 2nd largest city in the country for number of hotel rooms.  That also says a lot about a city.  I'm not even sure Jax would make a list of the top 50.

[VistaLakes01]

Please read the rules.  Do not post newspaper articles on this site

Edited by metro.m, 05 August 2006 - 06:08 AM.

[otowntiger]

asonj23, on Dec 28 2005, 01:10 PM, said:

Charlotte

Not sure why you guys are so infatuated with Charlotte and other bigger cities.  I think your closest rival on a lot of fronts is your closest large neighbor to the south- Orlando.  Orlando is bigger than Jax and the fastest growing in the state.  Look out.  From a stand point of cultural attractions, visitors, economic growth and progressive ideas like light rail (recently approved to begin) Orlando is ahead of Jax in my opinion.

[BHCav]

otowntiger, on Aug 5 2006, 07:59 AM, said:

Not sure why you guys are so infatuated with Charlotte and other bigger cities.  I think your closest rival on a lot of fronts is your closest large neighbor to the south- Orlando.  Orlando is bigger than Jax and the fastest growing in the state.  Look out.  From a stand point of cultural attractions, visitors, economic growth and progressive ideas like light rail (recently approved to begin) Orlando is ahead of Jax in my opinion.

Folks probably won't admit to it but it may have to do with the Jags and Panthers coming into the NFL the same year.  Naturally a rivalry was spawned from this on some degree.  

Another reason may be because of UP itself.  These forums have somewhat of a slant towards Charlotte and this may impact poster's perception.  

Just my $.02.

[AuLukey]

BHCav, on Aug 5 2006, 08:30 PM, said:

Folks probably won't admit to it but it may have to do with the Jags and Panthers coming into the NFL the same year.  Naturally a rivalry was spawned from this on some degree.

I actually believe that their second season was the root of the sports rivalry between the two cities.  They both made it to the NFC/AFC championship games and were predicted by many to play each other in the superbowl.  It was a big letdown when both teams lost.  Every year when there is a postseason game between the two teams it seems to be a bigger deal than even some regular season games (when both teams are of modest skill at least.)  When it comes to the Panthers, I think more people have it out for the Patriots now as the two teams have a growing rivalry ever since the last minute field goal to win in the super bowl three years back.

As for the UP sway towards Charlotte, I agree completely.  Charlotte is much more outspoken on this forum than in real life and sometimes can be a little over-represented.  Even considering that, my opinion still stands as it is.  Having been raised in and around Jacksonville and moving to Charlotte in 94, I continually watch the two cities and compare them.  So, to me, the two cities have been rivals since the moment I found out Charlotte existed (which was sadly just before I found out I was moving here.)  Since I haven't lived in Jax in over a decade, I'm sure the attitudes have changes towards who the rival city is.  

Charlotteans, in general, have a huge inferiorty complex when it comes to Atlanta.  So I believe that it's rival is more Atlanta than anything.  So, to be a true "rival" wouldn't the rivalry have to go both ways?  So, by that definition, do people in Orlando consider themselves rivals to Jax, Tampa, or Miami?

[BHCav]

aussie luke, on Aug 6 2006, 01:39 AM, said:

I actually believe that their second season was the root of the sports rivalry between the two cities.  They both made it to the NFC/AFC championship games and were predicted by many to play each other in the superbowl.  It was a big letdown when both teams lost.  Every year when there is a postseason game between the two teams it seems to be a bigger deal than even some regular season games (when both teams are of modest skill at least.)  When it comes to the Panthers, I think more people have it out for the Patriots now as the two teams have a growing rivalry ever since the last minute field goal to win in the super bowl three years back.

As for the UP sway towards Charlotte, I agree completely.  Charlotte is much more outspoken on this forum than in real life and sometimes can be a little over-represented.  Even considering that, my opinion still stands as it is.  Having been raised in and around Jacksonville and moving to Charlotte in 94, I continually watch the two cities and compare them.  So, to me, the two cities have been rivals since the moment I found out Charlotte existed (which was sadly just before I found out I was moving here.)  Since I haven't lived in Jax in over a decade, I'm sure the attitudes have changes towards who the rival city is.  

Charlotteans, in general, have a huge inferiorty complex when it comes to Atlanta.  So I believe that it's rival is more Atlanta than anything.  So, to be a true "rival" wouldn't the rivalry have to go both ways?  So, by that definition, do people in Orlando consider themselves rivals to Jax, Tampa, or Miami?

Also, both teams played each other in their first pre-season game in Canton, OH.

I don't remember who I voted for but I can see the arguement for Nashville, Orlando, and Charlotte.

[RALBOI]

mrh3, on Jul 6 2006, 09:59 AM, said:

I love your enthusiasm.    Raleigh still kind of creeps me out though.   It's very Old South. Not very cosmopolitan, not urban, not very sophisticated. Just not what I seek out in my travels.

I respect your view, but you do know that the reason were growing so fast is because tons of sophisticated and cosmopolitan folks like yourself are moving to the Triangle in record numbers not just for good jobs and schools, but because it's one of the best place to live in America!!!!!

Edited by RALBOI, 06 August 2006 - 05:32 PM.

[RALBOI]

aussie luke, on Jul 7 2006, 12:07 PM, said:

Couldn't have said it better myself

Talk about backstabbing! aussie luke your something else, I guess you don't like the fact that The Triangle will most likely outgrow your beloved Charlotte also in the near future ,thanks for the support my fellow North Carolinian!!!!!!!!!

Edited by RALBOI, 06 August 2006 - 05:50 PM.

[derrickskugler]

Please take your inbred fighting back to the NC boards.  :->

But please, the triangle will not catch Charlotte.  Those two areas are in different leagues.

[AuLukey]

RALBOI, on Aug 6 2006, 07:25 PM, said:

Talk about backstabbing, aussie luke your something else, I guess you don't like the fact that The Triangle will be bigger than Charlotte also in the near future ,thanks for the support my fellow North Carolinian.

  You know I just like giving you a hard time.

[RALBOI]

aussie luke, on Aug 6 2006, 06:40 PM, said:

  You know I just like giving you a hard time.

I know!

[krazeeboi]

derrickskugler, on Aug 6 2006, 07:40 PM, said:

But please, the triangle will not catch Charlotte.  Those two areas are in different leagues.

It might take some time, but I could see it happening.

I think that when you have a state which has two or more similarly-sized cities, those cities tend to compete more with each other than with outside cities. For example, while you could make a case for Atlanta being Houston's rival, I'm sure Dallas is its true rival on a more day-to-day basis. I could conceive of Pittsburgh being Cleveland's rival, but in all probability it competes more with Cincinatti and Columbus. St. Louis may name Cincinatti as a rival, but that Kansas City-St. Louis rivalry is almost dangerous. And so on. So I'd probably say that Jacksonville competes much more with Orlando and Tampa than with cities too far away to register on the radar on a consistent basis, like Charlotte and Nashville.

[RALBOI]

derrickskugler, on Aug 6 2006, 06:40 PM, said:

Please take your inbred fighting back to the NC boards.  :->

But please, the triangle will not catch Charlotte.  Those two areas are in different leagues.

Nice try derricksckugler! , but please do some research before you make blanket false statments.

[derrickskugler]

Research was done...  just because you want the Triangle to rival Charlotte doesn't mean in reality it does.

Charlotte:  2.125 million
Raleigh:  1.509 million

Charlotte:  109 high rises
Raleigh:  40 high rises

Charlotte's Tallest:  871 feet
Raleigh's Tallest:  431 feet

This shows that Charlotte has over 25% more population, almost 3 times the number of high-rises and it's tallest building is more than twice as tall as Raleigh's.

Raleigh isn't the metro that Charlotte is, nor will it be anytime soon.  Raleigh, other than population, really isn't the metro that Jacksonville or Nashville is, either.  It's a 3rd tier southern city.

Some good examples (I know a few are left out, this was a quick list)

1st Tier:  Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Miami
2nd Tier:  Tampa, Charlotte, Orlando, Nashville, Jacksonville, Memphis
3rd Tier:  Raleigh, Birmingham, Greenville, Chattanooga

[AuLukey]

derrickskugler, on Aug 6 2006, 11:33 PM, said:

This shows that Charlotte has over 25% more population, almost 3 times the number of high-rises and it's tallest building is more than twice as tall as Raleigh's.

Raleigh isn't the metro that Charlotte is, nor will it be anytime soon.  Raleigh, other than population, really isn't the metro that Jacksonville or Nashville is, either.  It's a 3rd tier southern city.

Some good examples (I know a few are left out, this was a quick list)

1st Tier:  Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Miami
2nd Tier:  Tampa, Charlotte, Orlando, Nashville, Jacksonville, Memphis
3rd Tier:  Raleigh, Birmingham, Greenville, Chattanooga

While the Ral-Char debate really belongs in another thread, I do have to point out to you one exception to the taller is better rule that pretty much destroys that idea: Washington, D.C. is inarguably one of our largest cities (metro) yet doesn't have a tower in site.

On a national scale, the tier system you have worked out is a little flawed.  Cities like Charlotte, Orlando, and those you listed in 2nd tier are on a fine line to even be that high nationally and could go either way.  Out of those cities (and not being boosterish) Charlotte and Tampa are really the only 2nd tiers from that list.  I agree with those figures if you are using southern cities as the definition behind the tiers though and not a national scale.

Wow, anyway, back to the subject at hand.  I have to agree with what has been said, intrastate rivalries are usually much bigger deals as that is usually due to the inferiority complex of the smaller city (a.k.a. Raleigh   .)  However, in Charlotte's case, I believe people there aim more at Atlanta as it is the closest larger city.  And I'm sure that Jax has several cities it compares itself to, Atlanta included.  However, as for a rival, I'm starting to think more and more about Orlando and Tampa given their similarities to Jax.  Being of Jacksonville's size and still being the fourth largest is probably a hard figure to swallow.  I wouldn't doubt if it were the same way in Texas or California (the only other two states I can think of with more than three large cities.)

[krazeeboi]

derrickskugler, on Aug 6 2006, 11:33 PM, said:

1st Tier:  Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Miami
2nd Tier:  Tampa, Charlotte, Orlando, Nashville, Jacksonville, Memphis
3rd Tier:  Raleigh, Birmingham, Greenville, Chattanooga

As was stated earlier, highrises are irrelevant. DC alone proves that.

Now, as fas as this third tier goes, how can you list three CSAs with populations over 1 million, then list Chattanooga, whose CSA is only at 650K?  

I consider Raleigh to be in a half-tier below Charlotte. It's really hard to classify, because if you go by metro area, you also have to take Durham into account (and Chapel Hill in regards to CSA). If you're just going by city population, it's a bit of a different ballgame. In that respect, Birmingham is the only true peer city out of the bunch.

OK, we're seriously off-topic here, but oh well.

[derrickskugler]

Yes, the random tiers I came up with were for the south, only...  not the nation.  Hope that helps clear things up.  :->

[krazeeboi]

OK. Chattanooga still doesn't belong in the 3rd tier though.