1004 replies to this topic

[uconn99]

Hey jay,


I just saw you do custom turbo work. Know any good places for turbo work on a bmw 540 in Phoenix?

[ctman987]

My thoughts are if a new civic center were to be built dp it on the 12B site. The area could be the perfect home for a major corporation but it appears that is not happening anytime soon (WFSB and ING decided to leave the city) so this project would do wonders in reconnecting the two halves of the downtown. With traffic moving on "downtown north" that would also help to reconnect downtown with the north meadows (CT Expo Center, Dodge Music Center/Meadows) which will possibly be the future home of a new retail center.

The current civic center along with the dodge music theater/meadows attract thousands of people to the city for trade shows, concerts, games, etc and the city in my opinion cannot give up space it has for these games, shows, etc which means either renovate or build new but now demoilish and build nothing new

[GregV]

I see a lot has happened (or at least a lot has been discussed) since I left for vacation!

I fall in the middle of most of the arguments here: subsidies for large projects such as this are a necessary evil, but should be kept to a minimum.  As for the 12B site, it's a lot riskier than a Front Street or other downtown proper location, but the upside potential is far greater.  This city MUST do something to mend the I-84 fissure, and since there's no office or residential demand on the site, it's either retail or entertainment.  I think the latter would prove more successful.

Happy New Year everyone!

[beerbeer]

Besides the current location there are only two "downtown" sites big enough for an arena.   Front street isn't physically big enough for an arena.

The two blue patches are the locations,  over the highway using some of 12 B or the six vacant acres diagonally across from the Bushnell Auditorium.  

[MadVlad]

Beerbeer, I think you have 12B wrong.  I believe 12B is actually to the right of the Main/Trumbull "X", not to the left.  It's the lot abutting the Crowne-Plaza...

[beerbeer]

I think you're rigth and I'm wrong.  But all those lots across I-84 are empty and the area I marked is large enought to fit the building..

[GregV]

I apologize for starting that misnomer, 12B is in that X.

[MadVlad]

beerbeer, on Jan 4 2006, 08:57 AM, said:

I think you're rigth and I'm wrong.  But all those lots across I-84 are empty and the area I marked is large enought to fit the building..

I do like your spot better, off to the side by the Crowne Plaza is an odd spot for an Arena...

[Bill Mocarsky]

MadVlad, on Jan 4 2006, 06:48 PM, said:

I do like your spot better, off to the side by the Crowne Plaza is an odd spot for an Arena...

Keep in mind that what ever is built on 12B will appear to be right in the middle of Main Street as you look north from the Old State House. That would be a great location for a marquee.

Edited by Bill Mocarsky, 04 January 2006 - 07:02 PM.

[Theophrastus Bombastus]

Good article in this week's Hartford Advocate (can't link to it, their site is down) about Hartford and the NHL - basically nothing will happen without a new arena.  How's attendance this year for the Southern teams, it seems like they are the best bets for relocating?

[HartfordTycoon]

Theophrastus Bombastus, on Jan 5 2006, 01:49 PM, said:

Good article in this week's Hartford Advocate (can't link to it, their site is down) about Hartford and the NHL - basically nothing will happen without a new arena.  How's attendance this year for the Southern teams, it seems like they are the best bets for relocating?

I don't know what the attendance is like but I'm sure it's significantly less than spectacular.

[beerbeer]

The Carolina story may be more intriguing around the NHL than around North Carolina. Average attendance of 14,220 is up over the Canes' losing 2003-04 season when crowds averaged 12,330, but it's less than the two prior years when the Canes regularly drew more than 15,000.

In the 30-team NHL, the Hurricanes are 22nd in attendance.

[blink55184]

SOURCE

[MadVlad]

Haha, it's a good thing the original Hurricanes numbers aren't avaialable, they are pathetic.  That would also be including the "2for1" tickets everyone got.  So, if you bought a ticket, you get 2, and they'd count whether you used them or not.  Sometimes they'd count 10k at a game, and literally have 1500...

[Luca Brasi]

Theophrastus Bombastus, on Jan 5 2006, 12:49 PM, said:

Good article in this week's Hartford Advocate (can't link to it, their site is down) about Hartford and the NHL - basically nothing will happen without a new arena.  How's attendance this year for the Southern teams, it seems like they are the best bets for relocating?

I read that article today. I LOVE how the Canadian economist explains why the Whalers left Hartford to begin with. Instead of the knee-jerk-blame-the-market reason EVERYONE gives, he states what we all know:

"Peter Karmanos made a huge mistake..."

He explains that the Whalers leaving Hartford had nothing to do with the market and everything to do with Karmanos making an absolutely horrible decision. He goes on to say there is no reason whatsoever why the NHL couldn't return to Hartford and be successful with a new building and the new NHL labor contract.

[Theophrastus Bombastus]

Developer Says Arena Is Priority

http://www.courant.c...eadlines-hockey

He should get the ball rolling now............

[DECDGUY]

MadVlad, on Dec 29 2005, 07:21 AM, said:

According to the news last night, and the Courant this morning, Northland is looking into building a publically-subsidized arena in downtown Hartford, and would like to buy an NHL franchise to play there.  "We've got our own money, we're willing to invest in an arena, and we're willing to buy a team", that according to Lawrence R. Gottesdiener, who I'm assuming is the CEO of Northland.

The bad news is he plans to make it a 16,000 seat Arena, which wouldn't cut it in this day and age, imho.  However, he also said he'd work with Howard baldwin if possible, possibly add another tower where the current Civic Center is, and add a skating rink.  We need to get this guy on this board...

Northland to build new Arena: Hartford Courant story

Gottesdiener is interesting. Yesterday, I heard him speak at the Convention Center (at the 2006 CT Economic Summit). More fascinating than his desire for an arena (logical enough) was his apt analysis of the residential component of downtown Hartford in terms of density. He compared New York's density (26,000 per sq mile) with the CBD (Central Business District) of Hartford, saying that in order for us to equal that level of density (which, in case you are wondering, is a good thing) we would need about 5,200 residents. This won't be achieved for many years.
The question becomes: without density at the get go, can services and "quality of life" arrive? This is the chicken and egg of urban revit. He is, of course, full of optimism, and in the face of bleak history, he was applauded as if a savior, when really, he is just a man interested in making a developer's profit. He has gambled on this city, and I hope he makes out well.

[DECDGUY]

HartfordTycoon, on Dec 29 2005, 09:43 AM, said:

With all due respect, I couldn't disagree with you more my friend. Cities need big budget projects to survive and grow. Even money losing ones. If cities like Atlanta and Boston did not have convention facilities and arenas, what class of city would they be in? Now ask yourself the same question about Hartford. We, as a metro, are a certain class of city population wise. There are certain amenities that are required. A capital city, in a rich state, which has had the premier venue for sports and entertainment in CT for the better part of the last 50 years just cannot, and justifiably will not ever be an arena-less city. Sometimes things have to be publicly subsidized, that's just how it is in this capitalist society. Investers only want sure bets. In my humble opinion, we NEED a new arena and it needs to be larger than 16,000 capacity, and I am sure it will be. I think this number is so people don't get scared and think the plan is unreasonable.

I shutter to imagine Hartford without the Civic Center over the last 25 years, imagine all of the lost revenue and exitement with no Uconn or big concerts Downtown. To me, that would be a nightmare. Let's pray that not to many other people feel that we can do  without an arena in Hartford.

I really like the location for the proposed new one, it will get development jump started on that side of Downtown.

^^By the time I was done typing you guys had already jumped on this. That's pretty funny.

What is most interesting about your stance about using subsidized big projects like arenas to enhance cities is that there is a really big difference between enhancing a "central business district" and enhancing a city. Nowhere is there an example of an arena or a convention center enhancing the life of a city. It just does not happen. The benefit may be accrued in the area of tourism and visitor revenue exclusively. Through out the country there are many examples of arenas and stadia and convention centers and casinos surrounded by inconguously poor, dangerous and underserved neighborhoods that have experienced none of the benefits of having the big subsidized development in their back yards. This may mean one of two things: a) those developments are injurious to cities, or, b) we don't yet have the formula right.

[Luca Brasi]

^ He obviously sees tremendous opportunity... and why not? Downtown Hartford is wide open. You are talking about an extremely wealthy metro with an unusually large corporate presence. He can control the market in a few years. People always seem to say "who is going to live downtown" when they never realized no one lives downtown because there is no housing downtown. In a metro of 1.2 million you can't tell me a certain percentage wouldn't live downtown if given the chhance.

It is going to take outsiders like Gottesdiener, Nyberg, etc to develop dowtown because in Hartford, the conservative insurance/finance mentality permeates everything. It seems Hartford developers won't get involved unless they are practically guaranteed a large return - usually without using their own money.

[HartfordTycoon]

DECDGUY, on Jan 6 2006, 04:03 PM, said:

What is most interesting about your stance about using subsidized big projects like arenas to enhance cities is that there is a really big difference between enhancing a "central business district" and enhancing a city. Nowhere is there an example of an arena or a convention center enhancing the life of a city. It just does not happen. The benefit may be accrued in the area of tourism and visitor revenue exclusively. Through out the country there are many examples of arenas and stadia and convention centers and casinos surrounded by inconguously poor, dangerous and underserved neighborhoods that have experienced none of the benefits of having the big subsidized development in their back yards. This may mean one of two things: a) those developments are injurious to cities, or, b) we don't yet have the formula right.

I do not feel that a stadium or arena is a cure all. My only point is would Hartford be better off a.) Having never had the Civic Center or b.) Having had the Civic Center? Not to oversimplify things but answer that question for yourself. We may come to different conclusions. Mine is that we are better off due to the approx. 30 year run of the HCC. Without it we would have never had the Whalers, or big time college sports. The only reason Uconn took off the way that it did is because it filled a much needed void in CT and at the Civic Center. I realize that there are plenty of arenas and stadiums in bad neighborhoods that have not helped the surrounding community.

I have only lived in Hartford and Atlanta. Atlanta's arenas are all on the fringe of Downtown and the impoverished West End of Atlanta. They have begun to start spin off developments in the West End. The arenas may not be the sole cause of the development as the West End has a huge asset, the Atlanta University Center, home of my alma mater Morehouse College, Spelman College, Clark Atlanta University, Morris Brown College, The Interdenominational Theological Center, and The Morehouse School of Medicine. It is the largest consortium of historically black institutions of higher education in America, if not the world. The AUC to no small degree has helped to make Atlanta what it is, even though it's never mentioned. I guess the point I am making is that different things work different places due to a combination of factors, always unique as no two places are the same. Like I said a stadium or arena is not a cure all, but it can contribute positively and accomplish things that other developments can't. All pros and cons need to be weighed before embarking on any course of action. I guess my point is that big projects can be injurious to cities, but overall are either neutral or positives.

Also, I'm a sports fan. I have selfish reasons and big league dreams for my little city. I can admit that.

Edited by HartfordTycoon, 06 January 2006 - 03:03 PM.