24 replies to this topic

[stateman99]

I know that we have a rundown of the new projects downtown on another thread, but I was wondering if somebody could post for me the new projects (let's say 10 stories and up) that are going to be built (or are currently under construction) downtown for certain and any dates for completion.

This is what I have:
The Park Condos (after todays news I think this is in, not sure though)
Wachovia
Citiaden
Trademark
The Avenue
Courtside
The Epicentre
The Vue

I could be wrong on some of these be certainties.  If so please feel free to correct me.

[dubone]

- The Wachovia Condos, which is a second tower at that site.  
- The Ritz-Carlton
- Royal Courts


Outside of the CBD, there is also Piedmont Town Center, and I think a tower taller than 10 stories will be at Morrison Place.

[unccmyway]

can't forget about Berkman tower

[stateman99]

dubone, on Jan 4 2006, 04:29 PM, said:

- The Wachovia Condos, which is a second tower at that site.  
- The Ritz-Carlton
- Royal Courts
Outside of the CBD, there is also Piedmont Town Center, and I think a tower taller than 10 stories will be at Morrison Place.

Thanks Dubone.  I guess i am wondering if these projects are all "sure things".  I know a lot of projects don't end up going up.  I'm sorry for my ignorance, again I am new to the site and I love it.  I guess i should have started a thread asking what the process was for getting something built downtown.  Proposal, Zoning permit, Building Permit, etc.  

[appatone]

You've also got the two Ballantyne towers.  They will be 16 floors right?

[dubone]

The only projects that are sure things are the following:
- Courtside
- Trademark
- Avenue
- Royal Courts
- Ritz Carlton
- Wachovia Offices
- Wachovia Condos
- 230 S Tryon

Those are either fully funded, under construction, and/or sold out.

The rest still have possibilities for falling through, as they have not sold out.

I have no way of handicapping the remaining projects, but I'll give pros and cons for the other in town highrises:
- The Park Condos
   Pro: Building permit issued for upfitting the existing deck, majority sold at one time, in the arena and 2nd Ward near many other projects, foundation parking deck already built, land fully owned by developer.
   Con: Lack of consumer confidence, loss of some contracts due to building permit and funding delays, currently isolated from other residential neighborhoods

- Citadin
   Pro: 4th Ward location, strong sales on midrise phase I, reputable architects
   Con: Developer inexperienced in high rises, late-comer to the highrise rush so higher construction costs and fewer in market

- 210 Trade at Epicentre
   Pro: Developer already purchased airrights, parking deck/foundation will be built no matter what, strong location by LRT/Arena/Ritz/BofA and Wach HQs
   Con: Developer less experienced in high rises and condos, no marketing or sales yet

- The Vue
   Pro: 4th Ward location, marketable design, large marketing budget, developer with deep-pockets, cost-competitive engineering method (tunnel-form)
   Con: High high price per square foot, rumors of slow sales

- Berkman
   Pros: Strong city council support for saving Carolina Theatre, two blocks from Square with Tryon address
   Cons: Some risk that financing model will not be acceptable to city council, some risk for high construction costs

Others may have different opinions.

I'm definitely a booster for all of these projects, but I also have some skepticism of the idea that 100% of the proposals will make it to the finish line.  That is especially true of the few projects that have visibly struggled despite strong initial optimism.

[stateman99]

Oh.  This was what I was wondering.  Thanks Dubone although it is a bit of a let down.  I was most excited about the Epicentre and the Vue.  I even went by the Epicentre site and saw the construction.  It is a disappointment to hear that construction is just for the deck and that both projects might not even get built.  

[Rickydavisfan21]

I've heard sales on the vue were decently strong

[dubone]

Well, bear in mind that I only said they weren't certainties, not that they aren't likely.  I have no way of knowing what level of pre-sales their financiers are requiring, or whether there will be enough of a market to sell enough units.  

I think many of us are most excited about Vue and 210 Trade because of their impact on density and the skyline.  However, we all know that 210 Trade has sold almost no units (they haven't opened their sales center yet), and there are rumors that Vue has sold less than a quarter of their units.  

That, however, may be perfectly in order and on schedule.  Both projects will take a long time to be built, and they could have financing that allows them to build with fewer units sold.  

Remember that by the end of this year, the projects that I listed as certainties will pretty much all be sold out and either completed or nearing completion.  Vue and 210Trade both will have another year to attract sales.  If the uptown market is nearing saturation, then we can expect that no new projects will be announced for a 2008 completion.  In scenario, these projects will have a virtual monopoly on the high rise market for that period of time.  Somehow, it seems that within two years, they can find the 700-800 buyers necessary to sell out, and probably they will be able to build with hundreds fewer.  That, however, is only if these projects remain active, and consumer confidence in the projects does not falter.

[dubone]

Rickydavisfan21, on Jan 4 2006, 11:38 PM, said:

I've heard sales on the vue were decently strong

I hope you are right on that one.  

That project is definitely the flag-bearer for uptown highrise residential projects.  It will be a symbolic defeat to urban residential growth if it suffers.

[SmellyCat]

Has anyone heard what % of its units the Vue has sold?  I've heard from a couple of sources that sales have been somewhat disappointing, but that's purely anecdotal.

[stateman99]

dubone, on Jan 4 2006, 11:43 PM, said:

I hope you are right on that one.  

That project is definitely the flag-bearer for uptown highrise residential projects.  It will be a symbolic defeat to urban residential growth if it suffers.

I agree with that Dubone.  I like the fact that the Vue and the Citadan are going to be away from the rest of the skyscraper cluster.  I am hoping that if/when they get built, more highrises will start being built back there thus making the skyline thicker (so to speak).

I read somewhere that the Trade tower above the Epicentre is expected to be about 8 stories by June.  That made it seem (at least to me) that the project was on for sure.

[dubone]

8 stories is just the parking deck that would be built even if the tower is not built.   that deck is under the air rights that flaherty bought.

[tablrock]

all i want to know is when is sir trump going to become a player!!!

[atlrvr]

Whenever global warming blesses us with ocean-frontage.

[ilektronik]

atlrvr, on Jan 5 2006, 02:52 PM, said:

Whenever global warming blesses us with ocean-frontage.

he could always build on the raging banks of the mighty sugar creek

[Germaine]

For now, as a developer of single-family projects in suburban (anti-urban) locations, I'm curious about why our company will sink millions into a project before the first house is built but a condo tower (like The Vue) can't start construction until "x" number of units are sold.  If I'm a consumer, I want to see product before buying.  If a tower in the center of Charlotte isn't selling quickly my guess is that it isn't because of a softening of demand, but a result of the reluctance on the part of buyers to purchase something - even with fancy sales offices, "sight unseen".  The trend in residential development is quickly moving toward "access living" - living in a SF home or condo or apartment - with at least some of our daily trips within walking distance of the home...

Edited by Germaine, 07 January 2006 - 06:41 PM.

[MZT]

There must be some differences in the financing. A suburban developer is holding a lot of land that could in worst case be resurveyed or used for some other purpose... A project can be completed at a slower pace, or finished out differently.

But a tower is more of an all-or-nothing shot. They might end up building it a few floors shorter if there's a problem, but there just isn't the same leeway to adjust to the market, as construction is going on. The financiers of a tower want to see lots of commitment before it's time to bring the cranes in.

Why the public is willing to invest in a promise, is another thing. Reputation is key. As well as the speculative temptation, of buying into Phase I.

Edited by MZT, 07 January 2006 - 07:48 PM.

[stateman99]

i put this on the thread for the Vue, but maybe i should add it here.

Hey, i just want to add my 2 cents worth. I was just at a party and talking to someone who works for The Charlotte Business journal. She told me that contrary to popular belief on this site, that the Vue is selling units well and that if all goes as it has they will break ground in March. She also said, that the 210 Trade tower at the Epicentre will be starting marketing and selling "very soon". She actually has already bought a place at the Vue. As far as the Park is concerned, she is still kind of iffy.
I am not trying to act like she knows all, and take it for what it is worth, but she sounded pretty confident of this. I see her a lot so i will try and get more info as it comes.

[MZT]

CBJ gossip. It's not any more authoritave than our gossip.