128 replies to this topic

[andrew.w]

In many cities, a lot of the old row houses that are three and four floors have been split into two units.  It's not only an issue of stairs but in houses the size of the one's above, there is quite a bit of space, usually more space than people would ever want.  Maybe if the single units were three floors and the stacked "duplex" would be four?

[Lmichigan]

Yeah, 4-story homes are inappropriate, really.  One one needs three floors at the most before you must make it duplex.

[hood]

Well for some persons four floors would be appropriate, I was saying that any four floor units would be primarily for two units but if someone wanted they they could build a 4 story single unit. It would still only be 4,000 sq. ft. their are many houses bigger than that.

[fisher191]

4000 square feet is appropriate....where the hell do you live?  The average house is 1500 square feet.  3000 square feet is a very large house.  4000 is very very large, and typically for a full family.  At this point in time, its not families that would be moving into these units.  Larch is to busy for a family to move in to (no one with a toddler wants to live on a three lane road.  Your hoping for young people or retired folks.  Families want the yard and white picket fence, Larch street and a spectacular view of a parking ramp is not what midwest families buy.  If midwest families wanted that, they move to New York or Chicago, with better job opportunities.

There are very few houses in this area that are 4000 square feet.

[jaredw]

I know this may be a little off topic, but how come nobody ever wants to build affordable housing for people with lower incomes?

[Lmichigan]

Jared,

There are a few of those.  Namely Ferris Development, and the Greater Lansing Housing Coalition.  To answer your question quite frankly, it's not glamorous, and more importantly, it's not where the money is in the housing market.  It is most definitely a noble deed, and I think Lansing is doing pretty good at it.  

Particularly the two groups I mentioned above are great because they also do a large amount of reuse projects, which is a MUST in a city who's housing stock is becoming increasingly vacant and abandoned.  Just look what Ferris has done for the Eastern Neighbors/Oak Park neighborhoods on and off of East Shiawassee between Penn. and Larch.  The area may not look that great, now, but it used to be much worse, and much more crime-filled.  What the company has done is renovated and reconstructed these old houses (and built a few news ones that try to blend with the old "workers cottages"), and offered them to low-income families, who so far have kept up their homes making a strong community.

So, don't get the impression that these things aren't going on.  They just don't get the press.  I worked for a week (our school service week) with the Greater Lansing Housing Coalition (GLHC), and let me tell you, for what they have they do an awesome job in more ways than one, and we had neighbors (usually old-times that had been there for decades) tell us how happy they were to see these old vacant properties reused.

These type of developments take a special kind of person.  And by that I mean a person with a lot of patience, and a helluva lot of heart, because they don't exactly become rich doing this.

Edited by Lmichigan, 09 February 2006 - 09:40 PM.

[fisher191]

Franklin Street Development has done several very nice rehabs of dilapidated housing, which they in turn sell to low income families.  From what I know of many of these organizations, they basically are getting grants to spend money on housing that could never warrant the kind of money/upgrades that are spent, if left up to the market.  I believe on a couple of houses that Franklin Street redeveloped, they 'lost' around 40k per house, but had they not, the blighted properties would have just sat there.

These organizations also are usually doing housing, where ever they can find a place in targeted neighborhoods at decent prices.  So one house here, one house there.  Unless getting major press, you would simply think it was the new owner that did the rehab.

The association or realtors donates the funds to upgrade one house per year, in conjunction with the housing coalition.  They saved two houses on West Shiawassee street, that were going to be torn down, but due to architectural and age significance were saved.  I'm not sure of the addresses, but I believe they are in the 8 or 900 block.  They are side by side, one is purple.

Unfortunately, without massive government subsidies, low income housing does pay, and by that I mean, ignoring any profit motive.  Simply to get a project to break even, under the guidelines of what low income folks can afford, it just doesn't work.

[hood]

fisher191, on Feb 9 2006, 10:22 PM, said:

4000 square feet is appropriate....where the hell do you live?  The average house is 1500 square feet.  3000 square feet is a very large house.  4000 is very very large, and typically for a full family.  At this point in time, its not families that would be moving into these units.  Larch is to busy for a family to move in to (no one with a toddler wants to live on a three lane road.  Your hoping for young people or retired folks.  Families want the yard and white picket fence, Larch street and a spectacular view of a parking ramp is not what midwest families buy.  If midwest families wanted that, they move to New York or Chicago, with better job opportunities.

There are very few houses in this area that are 4000 square feet.

Most families would not want a 4,000 sq. ft. house, those are typically for execs and relitively rich single or young couples. These might appeal to some higher up proffessors at MSU, architects or an exec that wants urban living. Thats why I wouldn't expect more than 3 or 4 4,000 sq. ft. units to sell, the rest would be 2,000-3,000 sq ft or less.

[jaredw]

hood, on Feb 10 2006, 09:08 AM, said:

Most families would not want a 4,000 sq. ft. house, those are typically for execs and relitively rich single or young couples. These might appeal to some higher up proffessors at MSU, architects or an exec that wants urban living. Thats why I wouldn't expect more than 3 or 4 4,000 sq. ft. units to sell, the rest would be 2,000-3,000 sq ft or less.

Have you ever been in a house that is 4,000 sq ft?  4,000 sq ft is a huge house.  You would need an orphanage to support that much square feet, not empty nesters that are rich or professors.  4,000 square feet is so much space that whoever lives there would make that their primary residence.  I think you might not realize just how much space 4,000 sq ft is for a single or a young couple.

[hood]

Go look out in Okemos, White Hills or along Moores river. There are plenty of houses over 4,000 sq. ft. There are houses over 10,000 sq. ft even, but the typical size house in areas like these seems to be a little over 5,000 sq. ft. I can almost guaruntee that not many of the people in these neighborhood have more than 4 people in their faily, many are just couples. I'm not by any means saying that 4,000 sq. ft is normal, but it is not that uncommon.

[Lmichigan]

In a downtown area where space is, or will becoming a premium, it is not smart to build such housing.  That is much more suitable for a high-rise penthouse.  You're talking about effectively putting vertical mansions in a city center.  The whole point of a city center is to pack as many people as you can in, in such a limited area, space-wise.

Regardless, I just hope to see some construction equipment on site soon.

Edited by Lmichigan, 10 February 2006 - 04:02 PM.

[hood]

Construction is supposed to start next month, I just hope they keep with that. I would think the actual structure should start to go up around June, or maybe sooner. If all goes as planned there will be quite a bit of construction right there, the Stadium District, Abrams Lofts and Sparrow, that will probably make for more than 5 cranes in that area.

[Adieoz]

I know the 4 story "pro and con" discussion has sort of been closed, but I still wanted to add my two cents.  I lived in London last fall on the 4th floor in a row home almost exactly like the picture posted and IT SUCKED!  And I'm only 23 so my knees aren't even giving out.   Anyway, if I was going to buy a home for $400,000+ it better include a personal servant to carry me up and down the stairs.

[hood]

I think most 3 floor homes, esecially in the price range that anything here would be, have their own elevators. I think what a lot of people missed is that I never really said to build a four story home. I said the four story should be a duplex, and if someone wanted, they could have a four story single unit. That would be the reason I beleive a project like this would be attractive, almost complete customizability. As long as the facade sticks with the general design, a person could build anything they want thats 3-4 floors and can fit on a 20'x110' lot. I myself would neve live in a rowhouse, the only way I'de pay premium prices to live downtown is if I were at least 10 floors and/or 100' up.

[GR8scott]

looks cool, I dont make it DT lansing a lot but when I am there it does seem to surprise me at how busy it is and seems to have a lot of potential, that midrise might look nice in the stadium district, but I have always thought Lansing would look really good with another 20+ story building between the capitol and the powerplant

[Lmichigan]

GR8, you're right about your last sentence.  If you ever look at a pan of the Lansing skyline from north-to-south or vice versa, and make the capitol the middle of that panorama, you will see that there is nothing of enough height on the 100 north block the Washinton/Capitol corridor that balances or measures up to the Boji Tower (Michigan National Tower) on the 100 south block of the Washington/Capitol corridor.

Actually, if you take it by corners, you'd have to demolish the Michigan Legislative office building and put something of similar height to balance out the Boji Tower on the opposite side of the grid.

If downtown Lansing could capture just half of the people that are downtown on any given day (state workers, and students), it would be a whole different story.  But that is actually happening, now.  There was an article in the Lansing State Journal yesterday making note of how downtown developers have been able to capture the student market keeping more of them downtown after 5.  Now, they need to make inroads on state workers.  On any given day downtown there are 20,000+ students, and 30,000+ workers.  There are few other cities Lansing size (and some even larger) in Michigan (if any) that has that many people downtown during working/school hours.

[LanCity]

If you look at urban housing development as a series of steps downtown has to feel good about the ease at which they've taken the first big one... getting students into the core downtown.

But thats also probably the easiest.  Obviously the next step is getting some of the younger, fresh out of school legislative staffers living in those places and walking to work each day (which I know a few who are doing just that) then a few of the middle income people buying condo's downtown, I think you'll see some bigger loft apartments coming in on the 100-200 blocks of S. Washington, and the stadium district's condo's will be a very good barometer as to whether or not downtown lansing is at a level where they can be a viable home ownership option.

I'm excited to see how quickly the Prudden Wheel lofts go once they're ready, and the Abrams Aerial, Hollister, and maybe even Knapps developments sound promising.

I have a strong feeling that once these vacant buildings get near capacity we'll start to see new low-to-mid rises cropping up downtown due to the demand and thats when we'll really see a nice head of steam that could lead the way towards more "attractions" in the city.

[hood]

I think the simple fact that they have jumped right into some pretty large projects while downtown is not yet a hotspot or desirable is the best sign. Downtown is still dead on the weekends and after 5, most businesses dont stay open and there isn't that much to do, but developers are still building large projects in the hopes that downtown becomes a success. The fact that developers are so comfortable with downtowns fate is a very good sign. And I expect more than low and mid rises, I expect a high rise residential building to at least have some preliminary proposals by the end of the year, I'm talking at least 10 floors/113 ft tall.

Edited by hood, 07 March 2006 - 09:48 AM.

[Lmichigan]

I'm glad about all of the housing because I expect it to bring nothing less than quality retail.  Washington Square still (or downtown in general) needs a large anchor tenant to solidfy all of this in the form of a truly mixed-use development that would include something that would draw the general populace.  What I mean by that is something that appeals to all demographics; some kind of entertainment where families could go, but that would also appeal to students and the like during late nights.  I can't tell you how many times I wish I could get something on Washington Square so I wouldn't have to drive out to the suburbs, or the edge of city, or how many times I simply wished some of the downtown businesses would stay open later than 5 or 5:30.  Going out to the Meridian, Lansing, or even Eastwood malls are really the last thing I want to do.

Edited by Lmichigan, 07 March 2006 - 03:34 PM.

[LanCity]

I agree and there is a lot of people saying there is a need for a downtown grocery store.  I'm mixed about this idea because I look at a city like GR and see how much more housing they had before they went towards an urban grocery store, but maybe something of smaller scale with good variety would keep people happy.  If there wasn't such a surplus of health food stores I think that would be a nice option.

Personally, I'd like to see a small bowling alley type of bar somewhere downtown, where the primary focus would be the bar but it'd have a few lanes just as more of a quirk (like shuffle board at stobers) but as for retail?  I like Larimer Square in Denver as an example where they have mainly home furnishings and clothing stores and some outdoors type stores... cool stuff that people probably drive from the burbs to shop at.  I could see women driving downtown to shop if there were stores like that, but of course, thats direct competition with Eastwood so what do I know.