21 replies to this topic

[DickSonstreetDFW]

Hello all.  I am new to the forum.  I live in the Dallas area, but I am a native of western Arkansas, a UA grad, and a future permanent resident of NWA.

On my last trip to Fayetteville this fall, I was shocked the by sheer number of multifamily units being constructed in Fayetteville, particularly on the western side of 540.  

I understand that there is a demand in certain areas of town for apartments due to the large and growing number of college students in the city.  Still, the sheer number of apartments going up on West Wedington Drive was amazing.  Couple that type of development with an abundance of already aging duplex and multiplexes in that area of town, and I see really trouble in the future for that side of Fayetteville.

The "garden style" apartments that are being built have a lifespan generally of 20-25 years before they start falling apart and become undesireable.  In our disposable culture, there will always be a nicer, safer apartment complex to turn to.

Here in Dallas, we have reaped many bad things from the huge number of apartment complexes constructed here duing the 70s.  They are like a plague on certain areas of the city.  These once vibrant apartment communities catering to singles and young professionals are now beyong repair, and havens for crime, drugs and prostitution.  The city has begun to rezone some of these properties at the urging of local residents and developers have begun to redevleop the properties into single family housing.

My concern is that the rapid proliferation of these same types of apartment complexes in Fayetteville will leave us with many areas of the city in decline in 20-25 years.  I wish there were better planning involved in the wholesale approval and construction of these types of complexes within the city.  I think we will all regret allowing these developers to push these projects through to turn a quick buck when we have many aging, unrehabilitable properties throughout the city.

Any thoughts?

[Mith242]

Welcome to the Arkansas forum.      You're actually the second Arkansas person currently living in Dallas.  Your concerns are justified.  A lot of Lindsey Apartments leave a lot to be desired.  I think Fayetteville is finally cutting down on Lindsey's cookie cutter approach at least.  There are a few bad spots on the west side of town but it's not all bad.  That area of town is actually probably the fastast growing area.  You'd be surprised how many houses are back there hidden away from sight of the main road.  Fayetteville has always been big on apartments because it is a college town.  They have been trying to get enrollment up to 22,000 at the U of A.  I'm not sure if a lot of these new apartments going up are connected to that or not.  But hopefully this won't turn out to be a big problem in the future.  I've seen a few undesirable apartment complxes get renovated in the past couple of years.  I guess this might have to be an option when that time comes.

[masons_dad1]

When Lindsey Apartments get too old they just convert them to Moderate Income Housing so they can get away with not fixing them up... and yes they are havens for crime, drugs and prostitution... oh and they include free pets (cockroaches).

[Mith242]

masons_dad1, on Jan 9 2006, 11:41 PM, said:

When Lindsey Apartments get too old they just convert them to Moderate Income Housing so they can get away with not fixing them up... and yes they are havens for crime, drugs and prostitution... oh and they include free pets (cockroaches).

What's really bad is how many Lindsey Apartments there are now.  Too bad Fayetteville didn't enact it's building codes years before they did so maybe it would have affected the Lindsey Apartments more directly.

[masons_dad1]

Mith242, on Jan 10 2006, 05:24 AM, said:

What's really bad is how many Lindsey Apartments there are now.  Too bad Fayetteville didn't enact it's building codes years before they did so maybe it would have affected the Lindsey Apartments more directly.

Lindsey's not so bad... Chicago has the Mafia, Tokyo has the Yakuza, Los Angeles has the Gang Bangers... NWA has Lindsey & Associates.  

[DickSonstreetDFW]

Mith242, on Jan 10 2006, 05:24 AM, said:

What's really bad is how many Lindsey Apartments there are now.  Too bad Fayetteville didn't enact it's building codes years before they did so maybe it would have affected the Lindsey Apartments more directly.

I recall that in the early to mid nineties, when Hannah was the mayor, there was a indeed a power struggle between the pro-development crowd and the smart growth crowd (and even some on the zero growth side).

Before Fayetteville became the mid-sized town that it is today, I think the mentality was to grow at all costs.  That is why North College Avenue has all the bad development it has.  That is why the huge un-interrupted parking lot at Fiesta Square.  That is why in some sections, the hillsides were bulldozed creating erosion danger so that someone could put in a fast food franchise.

Slowly, the effects of this poor planning are being mitigated by redevelopment.  A great example of that is the Walgreens at Township and N. College.  Now a Walgreens is never what I would consider to be a great development.  When Walgreens came in, however, the design and land use standards were in place to ensure that the area was well landscaped and that ingress/egress impacted traffic flow on North College minimally.  Its a masterpiece of a project compared to the car dealership that used to occupy that corner.

Hopefully over time, these bad apartment developments will be replaced with good ones.

My concern is that the pace of apartment construction seems only to have increased in the past three to five years and from what I could tell casually driving by, the quality doesn't seemed to have changed.

Edited by DickSonstreetDFW, 10 January 2006 - 09:25 AM.

[Mith242]

masons_dad1, on Jan 10 2006, 05:34 AM, said:

Lindsey's not so bad... Chicago has the Mafia, Tokyo has the Yakuza, Los Angeles has the Gang Bangers... NWA has Lindsey & Associates.  

DickSonstreetDFW, on Jan 10 2006, 09:23 AM, said:

I recall that in the early to mid nineties, when Hannah was the mayor, there was a indeed a power struggle between the pro-development crowd and the smart growth crowd (and even some on the zero growth side).

Before Fayetteville became the mid-sized town that it is today, I think the mentality was to grow at all costs.  That is why North College Avenue has all the bad development it has.  That is why the huge un-interrupted parking lot at Fiesta Square.  That is why in some sections, the hillsides were bulldozed creating erosion danger so that someone could put in a fast food franchise.

Slowly, the effects of this poor planning are being mitigated by redevelopment.  A great example of that is the Walgreens at Township and N. College.  Now a Walgreens is never what I would consider to be a great development.  When Walgreens came in, however, the design and land use standards were in place to ensure that the area was well landscaped and that ingress/egress impacted traffic flow on North College minimally.  Its a masterpiece of a project compared to the car dealership that used to occupy that corner.

Hopefully over time, these bad apartment developments will be replaced with good ones.

My concern is that the pace of apartment construction seems only to have increased in the past three to five years and from what I could tell casually driving by, the quality doesn't seemed to have changed.

I guess I haven't noticed so many apartment buildings being built recently.  Although I admit I haven't been on the west side of town much at all in the past year.  The few I've seen built around in other areas of the city seem to be a lot nicer than what had been built back in the 90's.

Edited by Mith242, 10 January 2006 - 03:00 PM.

[masons_dad1]

Mith242, on Jan 10 2006, 03:00 PM, said:

I guess I haven't noticed so many apartment buildings being built recently.  Although I admit I haven't been on the west side of town much at all in the past year.  The few I've seen built around in other areas of the city seem to be a lot nicer than what had been built back in the 90's.

Try and locate one of those Lindsey Apartment Guides... they usually have them in the office of any apartments. Some of the new apartments being built have rents in the $1200 per month range for a 2 bedroom apartment. We must be moving up if we can compete with the biggest cities as the most expensive place to live.

[Mith242]

masons_dad1, on Jan 10 2006, 04:51 PM, said:

Try and locate one of those Lindsey Apartment Guides... they usually have them in the office of any apartments. Some of the new apartments being built have rents in the $1200 per month range for a 2 bedroom apartment. We must be moving up if we can compete with the biggest cities as the most expensive place to live.

I think Johnny posted a topic in the Southern US forum about a survey of overrated real estate markets.  I believe NWA led Arkansas of course with around 11%.  Although that's not to say it's wrong.  I still think real estate is a good investment here in NWA.

[DickSonstreetDFW]

Mith242, on Jan 10 2006, 05:52 PM, said:

I think Johnny posted a topic in the Southern US forum about a survey of overrated real estate markets.  I believe NWA led Arkansas of course with around 11%.  Although that's not to say it's wrong.  I still think real estate is a good investment here in NWA.

Hopefully some of that strong demand and high pricing will translated into redevelopment of some of these older apartment complexes before they become too problematic.

When I get on with a developer up there (hopefully by the end of the summer) I am going to insist that we look at some of the older rentals within the city as possible redevelopment opportunities.

[Mith242]

DickSonstreetDFW, on Jan 10 2006, 07:31 PM, said:

Hopefully some of that strong demand and high pricing will translated into redevelopment of some of these older apartment complexes before they become too problematic.

When I get on with a developer up there (hopefully by the end of the summer) I am going to insist that we look at some of the older rentals within the city as possible redevelopment opportunities.

That sounds very interesting.  I'm sure there are some that have a lot of potential.  I'm still surprised a bit to see some areas of town not that far away from the university seem a bit run down.  There's still a trailer park over on Poplar that's not that far away from a Razorback bus route.  Just seems amazing to me that no one, not even Lindsey, has tried buting the land and turn it into apartments and such.  Granted, that's not to say there isn't need of low income places of residence too.

[Aporkalypse]

Yes, I think it will be a problem and probably already is - there are a couple of notorious apt complexes that are known as the city's drug havens.  However, the college will always provide massive demand and unlike major urban areas there's no flight to the suburbs to newer and better apts (though some could use this as a Benton Co analogy).

I think the real cheap multifamily housing problems will occur in Springdale and to a lesser extent in Rogers.  Somebody should shoot Jim Lindsay for putting up that crap, though.  His apt are essentially a single room with cheap partitions and cabinets, suitable only for college students.  They are the worst new construction apts I've ever seen anywhere.


Since I live in Lake Highlands down here, I know what you mean.  The homeowners are pretty well-off and generally professionals, the apt-dwellers seldom own cars.  This neighborhood's deeply divided and basically right now we're putting in TIFs to encourage tearing down of apts for more upscale commercial and residential.

The metaphoric area in Little Rock is Reservoir Road.  Those used to be the best apts in Arkansas, now most of those complexes are marginal and one is downright frightening.  The houses in Colony West, though, are quite nice and upper middle class.

[masons_dad1]

DickSonstreetDFW, on Jan 10 2006, 07:31 PM, said:

Hopefully some of that strong demand and high pricing will translated into redevelopment of some of these older apartment complexes before they become too problematic.

When I get on with a developer up there (hopefully by the end of the summer) I am going to insist that we look at some of the older rentals within the city as possible redevelopment opportunities.

One thing to keep in mind is that NWA doesn't develop Low Income Housing and by remodelling those apartment communities that are in less than desirable condition you'll be forcing the lower income residents out into the street as there aren't enough lower income housing projects in NWA as it is. The term Low Income Housing is not used in NWA as in most bigger cities, instead NWA uses Moderate Income Housing. To meet Moderate Income guidelinges a household of 3 (eg. Husband, Wife, Child) cannot earn more than $24,000 per year and the rent for Moderate Income Housing is usually about $70 cheaper per month than the more desirable apartment communities. The Bentonville Commons is a great example of Moderate Income Housing. The Commons is gorgeous and the apartments are compact but very nice. The rent for a two bedroom apartment is $550 per month. How does a family of 3 afford $550 rent when they only earn less than $24,000 per year?

I say leave some of these older apartments as they are as long as they pass city inspections so that our lower income residents can live without worry of being thrown out on the streets. Just build the "upscale" apartments and homes away from these "ghettos".

Edited by masons_dad1, 11 January 2006 - 12:47 AM.

[Aporkalypse]

masons_dad1, on Jan 11 2006, 12:39 AM, said:

One thing to keep in mind is that NWA doesn't develop Low Income Housing and by remodelling those apartment communities that are in less than desirable condition you'll be forcing the lower income residents out into the street as there aren't enough lower income housing projects in NWA as it is. The term Low Income Housing is not used in NWA as in most bigger cities, instead NWA uses Moderate Income Housing. To meet Moderate Income guidelinges a household of 3 (eg. Husband, Wife, Child) cannot earn more than $24,000 per year and the rent for Moderate Income Housing is usually about $70 cheaper per month than the more desirable apartment communities. The Bentonville Commons is a great example of Moderate Income Housing. The Commons is gorgeous and the apartments are compact but very nice. The rent for a two bedroom apartment is $550 per month. How does a family of 3 afford $550 rent when they only earn less than $24,000 per year?

I say leave some of these older apartments as they are as long as they pass city inspections so that our lower income residents can live without worry of being thrown out on the streets. Just build the "upscale" apartments and homes away from these "ghettos".

I think his argument and one that is quite apparent in Dallas is that virtually all apartments are destined to become ghetto, even the newer "upscale" ones.  It's a gradual transition that happens over a 10-20 year period.  There are a lot of apt complexes built in the 80s here in Dallas that were very nice when built and on the exterior still appear so but are really crime havens.  Build lots of apartments in a neighborhood and you are ultimately dooming the singly family subdivisions around them is a common argument against them.

Interesting, $550 in rent for a family of 3 is quite low by LR and Dallas standards.  That's just about as affordable as anyone could expect without Section 8.  Is there really no Section 8 housing in NWA?  I find that difficult to believe.

In Dallas and LR I would cringe if new apts went up around me.  A decade or more ago in NWA I would be indifferent.  I think illegal immigration has changed a lot of that, unfortunately.  Now I would be wary of new apt complexes in general.

[DickSonstreetDFW]

Aporkalypse, on Jan 11 2006, 10:16 AM, said:

I think his argument and one that is quite apparent in Dallas is that virtually all apartments are destined to become ghetto, even the newer "upscale" ones.  It's a gradual transition that happens over a 10-20 year period.  There are a lot of apt complexes built in the 80s here in Dallas that were very nice when built and on the exterior still appear so but are really crime havens.  Build lots of apartments in a neighborhood and you are ultimately dooming the singly family subdivisions around them is a common argument against them.

Interesting, $550 in rent for a family of 3 is quite low by LR and Dallas standards.  That's just about as affordable as anyone could expect without Section 8.  Is there really no Section 8 housing in NWA?  I find that difficult to believe.

In Dallas and LR I would cringe if new apts went up around me.  A decade or more ago in NWA I would be indifferent.  I think illegal immigration has changed a lot of that, unfortunately.  Now I would be wary of new apt complexes in general.

Right on, Aporkalypse.  My experience in Dallas has definitely set in stone my opinion about these types of developments.  

Its not apartments in general, is an overabundance of them, and the inevitable decline that "garden-style" (Lindsey-style?) apartments are subject to.

A young and growing city like Fayetteville can learn from the mistakes of larger metros by limiting the size of these apartments, demanding higher quality, and spacing them throughout the city rather than clustering them in a few areas.

I'm afraid the spot-zoning and poor planning of this nature by Springdale city leaders, attempting to grow at all costs to catch Fayetteville, is going to reap decades of regret very soon.

I believe Fayetteville will resist decline because of smart planning and the resulting consistently higher property values.

[Aporkalypse]

DickSonstreetDFW, on Jan 11 2006, 11:46 AM, said:

Right on, Aporkalypse.  My experience in Dallas has definitely set in stone my opinion about these types of developments.  

Its not apartments in general, is an overabundance of them, and the inevitable decline that "garden-style" (Lindsey-style?) apartments are subject to.

A young and growing city like Fayetteville can learn from the mistakes of larger metros by limiting the size of these apartments, demanding higher quality, and spacing them throughout the city rather than clustering them in a few areas.

I'm afraid the spot-zoning and poor planning of this nature by Springdale city leaders, attempting to grow at all costs to catch Fayetteville, is going to reap decades of regret very soon.

I believe Fayetteville will resist decline because of smart planning and the resulting consistently higher property values.

Again, I think the UA's student population is what will keep things from spiraling down there.  Hell, there are some damn shoddy apts near campus that would be awful elsewhere that are in good condition because of the students.  Unfortunately, that benefit doesn't extend much to the North.

[DickSonstreetDFW]

Aporkalypse, on Jan 11 2006, 12:13 PM, said:

Again, I think the UA's student population is what will keep things from spiraling down there.  Hell, there are some damn shoddy apts near campus that would be awful elsewhere that are in good condition because of the students.  Unfortunately, that benefit doesn't extend much to the North.

I'd like to see a five year record of the police blotter for a particularly notorious rental property on the west side of Fayetteville:

BETTY JO KORNER

I swear that place must have 20 or fewer units yet it was in the news on a weekly basis because it was nothing but a haven for crime when I lived in NWA five years ago.

Properties like that should be tracked, and the Landlord should be sent the tax bill for all of the 911 calls responded to after the first 10 or so per year.

[Mith242]

DickSonstreetDFW, on Jan 11 2006, 12:48 PM, said:

I'd like to see a five year record of the police blotter for a particularly notorious rental property on the west side of Fayetteville:

BETTY JO KORNER

I swear that place must have 20 or fewer units yet it was in the news on a weekly basis because it was nothing but a haven for crime when I lived in NWA five years ago.

Properties like that should be tracked, and the Landlord should be sent the tax bill for all of the 911 calls responded to after the first 10 or so per year.

Believe it or not there's a worse place in NWA now.  I can't remember the name of the apartments but they're up in Rogers.  I think they've had even more stuff going on there than over by Betty Jo Corner.  Maybe Matt knows the name of them.  Either that or I'll just have to watch the local news for a while before they probably get mentioned.  

Edited by Mith242, 12 January 2006 - 05:44 AM.

[masons_dad1]

Aporkalypse, on Jan 11 2006, 10:16 AM, said:

I think his argument and one that is quite apparent in Dallas is that virtually all apartments are destined to become ghetto, even the newer "upscale" ones.  It's a gradual transition that happens over a 10-20 year period.  There are a lot of apt complexes built in the 80s here in Dallas that were very nice when built and on the exterior still appear so but are really crime havens.  Build lots of apartments in a neighborhood and you are ultimately dooming the singly family subdivisions around them is a common argument against them.

Interesting, $550 in rent for a family of 3 is quite low by LR and Dallas standards.  That's just about as affordable as anyone could expect without Section 8.  Is there really no Section 8 housing in NWA?  I find that difficult to believe.

In Dallas and LR I would cringe if new apts went up around me.  A decade or more ago in NWA I would be indifferent.  I think illegal immigration has changed a lot of that, unfortunately.  Now I would be wary of new apt complexes in general.

There are currently 1 1/2 to 2-year waiting lists for section 8 housing in NWA. Lindsey doesn't offer Low Income Housing, which is usually based on a person's income but they do have Moderate Income Housing which is usually about $70 less rent per month for a family of 3 making less than $24,000 per year.

I agree that building substandard apartments will only lead to more "ghetto's" in the future but a line has to be drawn somewhere as to where the "ghetto's" should be.

[masons_dad1]

Mith242, on Jan 11 2006, 04:34 PM, said:

Believe it or not there's a owrse place in NWA now.  I can't remember the name of the apartments but they're up in Rogers.  I think they've had even more stuff going on there than over by Betty Jo Corner.  Maybe Matt knows the name of them.  Either that or I'll just have to watch the local news for a while before they probably get mentioned.  

I know that Turtle Creek Apartments in Rogers gets a lot of criminal activity. In fact, the managers of those apartments even warn people not to move in there because of the drugs and such.

But if you look at these apartment complexes that are havens for drugs and criminals they are not maintained by Lindsey and they are overrun with cockroaches. For $70 less rent you get moldy apartments with rusty A/C vents, cockroaches crawling all over the place, broken windows in some of the apartments and very little if any amenities. But some people just have no choice but to live there because they just don't make enough money to live anywhere else. Not ALL the people that live in these "ghettos" are bad people. Most of them are just people who want to get by and raise their kids without the worry of being thrown out on the streets.