153 replies to this topic

[Dan]

Club Diesel may lose its liquor license and Lupo's Heartbreak Hotel may close.

Page 20, 21 of Downcity topics on Club Diesel.

Previous articles:  (March 4-16)
http://www.pbn.com/c...s.php/id/119820
http://www.beloblog....board_to_c.html
http://www.projo.com...l.29ca76a6.html
http://www.projo.com...6.180586f7.html

Today's Providence Journal:

"State police Lt. Robert Mackisey was one of the officers who responded. He said it was a boisterous crowd.
For several months last year, state police patrolled Providence with city police officers to target high-crime areas.
The first time he saw the downtown closing-time crowd, Mackisey said, he was shocked.
"We don't usually deal with that number of people, with the state police," he said."

How can the police be expected to handle this volume of people at once?!  This is a perfect example why the closing time should be amended to 4:00 so people may leave on their own within the two hours after alcohol service is stopped.  I think this should be considered in the interest of public safety, not just keeping the peace.

Lupo's should be given the option to inherit the liquor license from Club Diesel if it is forced to close.  I believe we were in agreement that Lupo's is important to the Providence music scene and should be saved.  The club was always a part of Downcity since the roughest period in the city's history, and for it to disappear at a critical time in that neighborhood's revitalization would be tragic.  

If this was a poll question, I would ask how to solve this problem.  
Should Diesel lose its license?  Should Lupo's destiny be determined by the Board of Licenses who are voting on Diesel?  Should the city amend its closing time?  

Is there a way to successfully balance nightlife and residential in Downcity?  

[CtownMikey]

I will be very surprised if this all goes through. Diesel has some good arguments about the other violence that goes on around the city. Why is Diesel being singled out? Because there are too many people? so extend the friggin hours........

[MikeR]

The ProJo did a cover story on this same topic:

http://www.projo.com...nd.33b8b40.html

[jencoleslaw]

i've been seeing music in downtown providence for over 20 years and i don't remember any problems with crowds until recently.  I always felt safe, even when i was 17 seeing shows at the Cage and the Rocket, and now, i go downtown mid-evening and feel vaguely uneasy passing the throngs in front of the clubs.

So, what's changed? Me? or the tenor of the crowds?

[CtownMikey]

both have changed. But I still stick by what I feel is right. TRY and keep them open until 4 a.m. or re-locate the clubs to another area... make it a "club strip destination" with some transit options. The clubs should have some financial help with that. They were here before the condos and they are a huge part of Providence. JUST DONT TAKE AWAY THEIR LIQUOR LICENSE AND CLOSE THEM DOWN!

[Cotuit]

I think allowing the city's biggest club to be all ages is just asking for trouble. There should be a capacity limit on all ages clubs.

[Dan]

Cotuit, on Mar 26 2006, 01:40 PM, said:

I think allowing the city's biggest club to be all ages is just asking for trouble.

I just learned today that Diesel's capacity is lower than The Complex'.  The problem, the club owners imply, is if you make "21+ to enter" the law the clubs won't survive.  Clubs depend on alcohol sales and most of the people drinking are underaged college kids.

A 4:00 closing and last call at 2:00 is a good solution.  Keep the clubs in Downcity!  We already have a "club strip destination" on Allens Ave. with plenty of strippers.  Let the dance clubs open up wherever they want.   If you have laws that make sense, enforcement becomes easier and trouble spots can be addressed.  Closing Diesel doesn't solve your problem.

Question: Will the club owners want to stay open an extra 2 hours while not making any money?     Could they sell enough $3 bottles of water to make it worthwhile?

[pete11]

Dan, on Mar 27 2006, 01:20 AM, said:

I just learned today that Diesel's capacity is lower than The Complex'.  The problem, the club owners imply, is if you make "21+ to enter" the law the clubs won't survive.  Clubs depend on alcohol sales and most of the people drinking are underaged college kids.

So their business model depends on underage drinking (I don't think thats entirely legal) and the City/State should allow this to happen so they stay in business?

Do you even read what you post, before you do so?

[jencoleslaw]

i think that staying open later is a hard sell.  If the people who live down town (btw, i kind of see those folks as the equivalent of the airport complainers--dudes, don't move to downtown/the airport if you don't like nightclubs/airplanes! Duh!) But, i digress, if those folks are complaining about a 2am closing now, they aren't going to see the "wisdom" in letting the clubs stay open later, but simply making the bar close earlier.

and i think it is not a good defense of the club owners to imply that they have to be all ages so they can serve under aged kids and therefore stay in business. If that's what they're saying, the really need some new PR people.

[ctman987]

I was just in the city this past weekend (loved it..will get some pics up soon) and I cant beleive this whole situation that is happening with the clubs and the city. A nightlife is crucial to a city and something that a lot of suburbs cant offer in large porportions. For example here in Hartford there are tons of clubs, bars, etc in the downtown area that offer drinks and live music, many of which are located withing a three block radius- same story in New Haven. Highly successfull mixed use places like West Hartford Center are dead around 9:30pm after the dinner crowds leave yet downtowns are still hopping. The city needs to work with the clubs and downtowns new residents who are moving to the city for city life. Also considering Providence is such a big college town many of these clubs get a large number of college students who are actually staying in the city to do things (lure them in to stay after graduation!!!) as oppossed to hating the city or town there school is in.

[damus]

Dan, on Mar 27 2006, 01:20 AM, said:

I just learned today that Diesel's capacity is lower than The Complex'.  The problem, the club owners imply, is if you make "21+ to enter" the law the clubs won't survive.  Clubs depend on alcohol sales and most of the people drinking are underaged college kids.

A 4:00 closing and last call at 2:00 is a good solution.  Keep the clubs in Downcity!  We already have a "club strip destination" on Allens Ave. with plenty of strippers.  Let the dance clubs open up wherever they want.   If you have laws that make sense, enforcement becomes easier and trouble spots can be addressed.  Closing Diesel doesn't solve your problem.

Question: Will the club owners want to stay open an extra 2 hours while not making any money?     Could they sell enough $3 bottles of water to make it worthwhile?

Maybe they can mandate any club that wants to serve drinks til 2 stays open til 4, and that those who don't stay open late can close at 1.

[Frankie811]

ctman987, on Mar 27 2006, 08:51 AM, said:

I was just in the city this past weekend (loved it..will get some pics up soon)

ah, ya finally made it.    Where did you stay and what did you do?

[Griswald]

There is no reason for any of the clubs to close because of residents complaining. Yes, the clubs were there first, but even more important - why do people move downtown in the first place? To experience urban life - being in close proximity to everything, restaurants, theaters, bars & clubs, stores.... having people awake at 5 am going to work, and people awake at 2 am leaving bars - this is what living downtown is about. This is why Providence is making huge strides: building mixed-use urban communities where there is life at all times of day & night.
I agree with pushing the closing time to 3 or 4 am, it gives people a chance to leave when they want, rather than having everyone leave at the exact same time.
I think a more important problem is the transportation issue - think of all the people who leave the clubs and then get in their cars - what percentage of those people do you think are responsible designated drivers? Maybe 5, 10 % at best?? I know plenty of people who are over 21, who drive home after drinking at bars & clubs. I would love to see some solid public transportation for the late-night drinking crowd. I would gladly pay a few bucks to jump on a bus after leaving a club, rather than trusting a friend to drive me...

[brick]

Griswald, on Mar 27 2006, 09:32 AM, said:

I agree with pushing the closing time to 3 or 4 am, it gives people a chance to leave when they want, rather than having everyone leave at the exact same time.
I think a more important problem is the transportation issue - think of all the people who leave the clubs and then get in their cars - what percentage of those people do you think are responsible designated drivers? Maybe 5, 10 % at best?? I know plenty of people who are over 21, who drive home after drinking at bars & clubs. I would love to see some solid public transportation for the late-night drinking crowd. I would gladly pay a few bucks to jump on a bus after leaving a club, rather than trusting a friend to drive me...

This seems like a pipe dream to me, unfortunately.  Even Boston doesn't have decent PT for closing time.  This has always been a real problem to me but I guess the economics don't work.  Even a solid number of clubgoers is a relatively small crowd.

As for closing the clubs, I think this is pretty ridiculous.  It is happening elsewhere where nightlife was keeping economic juices flowing in undesirable neighborhoods that have recently become vogue for urban yuppies.  (for instance, the Old Port of Portland, ME or the Meat Packing District of NYC)  We need a new term for a NIMBY who moves somewhere and then complains about the existing conditions.

Like many other things, though, I have to say that Providences problems in these areas do seem worse than other cities.  I don't quite understand why.  Why do Providence club-goers feel the need to shout at each other and honk their horns and vandalize things?  I have been out to the wee hours in several NYC club areas, just about everywhere in Boston/Cambridge, Philadelphia, Chicago, etc.  all of these places have what seems to be a similar demographic out partying, but many less problems afterward, especially considering the scale.  Is it just that the Providence Police have ignored this problem for a long time and want to be able to continue to ignore it?  I can't figure it out.  It's the same thing with the graffiti problem and the panhandling problem.  Why is (relatively) small sized Providence having huge issues with these problems while much larger cities don't.  I just think there has been a long culture of lack of enforcement which is most probably the result of policy makers and not necessarily the blue uniforms on the street.  but I think everyone needs to figure out how to make downCity a more attractive place for everyone, and cutting down on these "minor" problems seems like it should be doable.

Edited by brick, 27 March 2006 - 08:51 AM.

[Garris]

jencoleslaw, on Mar 27 2006, 08:37 AM, said:

...btw, i kind of see those folks as the equivalent of the airport complainers--dudes, don't move to downtown/the airport if you don't like nightclubs/airplanes! Duh!

Agreed...  Great analogy.

- Garris

[jencoleslaw]

Garris, on Mar 27 2006, 09:50 AM, said:

Agreed...  Great analogy.

- Garris

see, i can really be quite reasonable!

[CtownMikey]

pete11, on Mar 27 2006, 08:35 AM, said:

So their business model depends on underage drinking (I don't think thats entirely legal) and the City/State should allow this to happen so they stay in business?

Do you even read what you post, before you do so?

Lupo said that his music venue would not survive (nothing to do with liquor). tons of high schoolers and 18-20 attend those shows. TONS. I used to and I never drank while I was there.

Same for diesel. Example: White Party, Sept 05', cover: $10 buying ticket in advance, $20 at door. OPEN TILL 4 AM, CAPACITY FULL. Diesel has about 6 or 7 of these 4am parties a year and they are fine.

That night was crazy fun and diesel was probably over capacity. So calculate 1000-1500 people and Diesel made about $20k in ticket sales alone. I know they pay the DJ and all of those other considerations, but the under 21 crowd is huge and vital... there should be no argument. I really think taking away such a great nightlife will affect our colleges and universities in Providence.

I say extend the curfew. Knowing RI'ers, they'll all probably stay until closing for a few months, but the hype will die down and it will be like any other 4am club, trickling down throughout the night, sobering up, going home.

[CtownMikey]

If anyone knows when the next meeting is, could you let me know? Also, I know we are kind of 50/50 here on UP about this issue but if some of you want to go to a meeting if it is free to public opinon, i'd love to go and support Diesel.

[CtownMikey]

damus, on Mar 26 2006, 09:16 PM, said:

It's probably been said already somewhere in this thread, but what about the areas around this project? Is there any real effort to get rid of the strip clubs and the industrial areas surrounding the project site? How many people would buy an expensive waterfront condo if they also have views of Cheaters and oil tanks?

here is a great idea! Lets move our downtown clubs that are causing trouble to allens ave like the city really wants. Then lets wait for this project to be complete so they new residents can complain and the clubs can go back to court to only be kicked out again!

[Garris]

CtownMikey, on Mar 27 2006, 10:38 AM, said:

here is a great idea! Lets move our downtown clubs that are causing trouble to allens ave like the city really wants. Then lets wait for this project to be complete so they new residents can complain and the clubs can go back to court to only be kicked out again!

This gave me a huge laugh, in large part because the same thing was on my mind last night as I was reading about the Piers...  

For all the unfortunate aspects of delaying redoing the city's zoning, your example could be seen as a pristine example of why comprehensive urban neighborhood planning should happen first before zoning.  As Jencoleslaw points out, that area isn't zoned for much of Providence Piers plans.  And you're right, Mikey, that some in the city see Allens Ave as the perfect place for a club district.  Those two might not go together very well.  

I'm not very familiar with the Providence club scene, so I could be off here, but this is what I'd like to see...

- Let Providence Piers go through...  Redo Allen's Ave over 10-15 years to create a waterfront harbor type of district stretching from the end of the JD/future 195 land South...

- Clubs say downtown, perhaps even more concentrated than they are now.  Change closing time policies and work with different policing/enforcing models.  My question for the club folks here is the following - Is downtown big enough for a more concentrated club scene?  If so, where should it be?  Is Washington the best place, or closer to the zone between the JD and downtown?  Do we want the "connector" between the JD and downtown to be a club district?  I personally don't think so...

- JD/195 land: A mix of residential, commerical, and academic, with Brown and J&W occupying the majority of the land along an edge of mid-range height commerical towers closer to the core.  There should be a strong retail district at Chestnut Square...

Comments?

- Garris