78 replies to this topic

[DruidCity]

Quote

I've said before (in this thread I think) that I thought the most likely locations would be 459/Grants Mill, 459/Derby Parkway, 459/John Hawkins and even possibly 20/78 around Bass Pro.

What about the west end of 459 in Bessemer, near where it meets I-20/59 ? Colonial is already building a pretty
sizable shopping center at Exit 1. The interstate access there is great, you have attractions like Tannehill
and Alabama Adventure nearby, and you have good long-term drivers of growth in the general area such
as Mercedes and Ross Bridge.

Anyway, I've been to the IKEA store north of Austin,TX a few times. It really is an amazing store.
For those unfamiliar with it, the real surprise is how inexpensive a lot of their stuff is.
There's nothing remotely similar in AL-MS.

Similarly, Fry's Electronics rules. If Birmingham got one of those, engineers from Huntsville would
drive down to visit every week. Again, there's nothing remotely comparable in Alabama now.

I'm a bit surprised Alabama hasn't landed a Cabela's yet, either. There's one about 20 miles from
my brother's home in Texas that I always visit when I see him. Considering that Alabama is going
to have four Bass Pro locations, it seems only natural to have at least one Cabela's. Honestly,
Cabela's and Bass Pro are very similar, but the lack of other Cabela's locations in the state would
make a Birmingham one a draw.

Since Dillard's closed its store in Tuscaloosa, I've been half-expecting to see an announcement
that Dillard's would pop up in Birmingham somewhere. It's odd that a chain that large wouldn't want
some sort of presence in the sizable central Alabama market.

So, in a nutshell, picture a shopping center anchored by IKEA, Cabela's, Fry's, Dillard's, some form of entertainment
venue like a Dave & Buster's, and maybe a second Whole Foods location.

[tedo420]

I agree an Ikea anywhere would do well. It comes down to the available land and roadways large enough to handle the traffic. But speaking of the Summit, I heard the lease is up on the Carmike, Bruno’s, Bed Bath beyond, and that Bayer is terminating all of them, and this area is going to be part of a major redevelopment, more vertical   expansion. I know Bayer just got incentives for an expansion but I never read about a specific location of its where a bouts, could the Bruno’s, Carmike site be it, not Ikea but something else? And about the Galleria, I'm really pumped about the Nordstrom, but skeptical. If the Galleria has it in writing, a guarantee/deadline/not to flexible opening date, which I assume they do, I still don't see the Hoover/Riverchase area becoming a magnet for other upscale retailers. People will drive in and go to a department store especially a good one like Nordstrom; the old Parisian at Galleria was like that, that’s why it was doubled in size. But that certain demographic that made Parisian and will make Nordstrom successful I don't think will go into the actual mall to shop. These people come to a store to buy. They are in and out, that's why the Summit shopper spends less time at the Summit but spends more $$$. These high end shoppers aren’t going to venture into an outdated enclosed mall, which in my opinion all enclosed malls are outdated; they are not going to be drawn in by the Chinese food and cinnabun's in the food court if you get my drift. My point is given the demographics I really doubt that Crate & Barrel will set up shop in an ole Just For Feet, and I doubt there will be a great influx of high end stores come to the Galleria who's surrounding demographics are changing to a more minority and yes lower income local shopper, though I really do wish the Galleria the best. Besides every city needs an average mega mall for average, regional shoppers, and the Galleria is a hell of a mall, but it will never be Lenox in Atlanta. On a more positive note the best thing the G ria area has going for it is not Patton Creek, but the Office towers and the Wynfrey hotel are major assets, and I think were key in landing Nordstrom

[rtkenmore]

tedo420, on Jul 1 2008, 02:02 AM, said:

I agree an Ikea anywhere would do well. It comes down to the available land and roadways large enough to handle the traffic. But speaking of the Summit, I heard the lease is up on the Carmike, Bruno’s, Bed Bath beyond, and that Bayer is terminating all of them, and this area is going to be part of a major redevelopment, more vertical   expansion. I know Bayer just got incentives for an expansion but I never read about a specific location of its where a bouts, could the Bruno’s, Carmike site be it, not Ikea but something else? And about the Galleria, I'm really pumped about the Nordstrom, but skeptical. If the Galleria has it in writing, a guarantee/deadline/not to flexible opening date, which I assume they do, I still don't see the Hoover/Riverchase area becoming a magnet for other upscale retailers. People will drive in and go to a department store especially a good one like Nordstrom; the old Parisian at Galleria was like that, that’s why it was doubled in size. But that certain demographic that made Parisian and will make Nordstrom successful I don't think will go into the actual mall to shop. These people come to a store to buy. They are in and out, that's why the Summit shopper spends less time at the Summit but spends more $$$. These high end shoppers aren’t going to venture into an outdated enclosed mall, which in my opinion all enclosed malls are outdated; they are not going to be drawn in by the Chinese food and cinnabun's in the food court if you get my drift. My point is given the demographics I really doubt that Crate & Barrel will set up shop in an ole Just For Feet, and I doubt there will be a great influx of high end stores come to the Galleria who's surrounding demographics are changing to a more minority and yes lower income local shopper, though I really do wish the Galleria the best. Besides every city needs an average mega mall for average, regional shoppers, and the Galleria is a hell of a mall, but it will never be Lenox in Atlanta. On a more positive note the best thing the G ria area has going for it is not Patton Creek, but the Office towers and the Wynfrey hotel are major assets, and I think were key in landing Nordstrom

The expansion at the Summit is just that, an expansion.  It's not a conversion of anythng existing right now.  The area being expanded is next to the most recent expansion behind the Cheesecake Factory.  They're adding approximately 50,000 sq. ft. of retail; probably something like 6 to 12 stores maybe ranging in size from a couple 1000 sq. ft. to up to six or seven thousand.

I've heard the rumors on the Carmike as well but most of the rumors I've heard about that is Bayers desire for a more upscale style theater, not to simply do away with the theater.  I think Bayer would actually be interested in getting a Rave in the Summit or a Muvico (I think that's the name) that tends to be a bit nicer and more upscale.

As for Bruno's, I've heard the same rumors there as well but again, I think Bayers intention would be to draw a more upscale grocer.  There's a large population in that immediate area that shops Brunos and with the closing of the Western behind the Summit, there's a good demand for a grocery store.  I could see the redelopment of the BBB and Old Navy areas upon the end of their leases as the Summit moves away from junior anchors and toward more upscale tenants however.

As for the Galleria, just to make sure you realize, I'm not referring to the Just for Feet in the food court, I'm talking about the free standing building on the outside loop road.  And I think it would do just fine there.  The Galleria isn't Lenox I agree but it's also not just some plain regional mall either.  There are several upper-end in-line stores at the Galleria and they continue to pursue others.  With the Summit fast approaching it's building limits, the Galleria will be in a position to start picking up other new comers to the market and start moving the mall further up-market.  I think this has been something the management has been working on for years actually although it's a very slow process.

Given the right length of time, I think the Galleria could come to closely rival Lenox.  If, for some reason, JC Penny and Sears ever decide to leave the mall for stand-alone locations near by, count on mall management to go after another semi-upscale anchor along the lines of Nordstrom.  It would be a stretch, but Macy's might even push for a Bloomingdales if given the opportunity at the Galleria.

[HSVTiger]

The Monaco Theaters in Huntsville as an example
http://www.monacopicturesusa.com/

[kayman]

rtkenmore, on Jul 1 2008, 08:18 AM, said:

The expansion at the Summit is just that, an expansion.  It's not a conversion of anythng existing right now.  The area being expanded is next to the most recent expansion behind the Cheesecake Factory.  They're adding approximately 50,000 sq. ft. of retail; probably something like 6 to 12 stores maybe ranging in size from a couple 1000 sq. ft. to up to six or seven thousand.

I've heard the rumors on the Carmike as well but most of the rumors I've heard about that is Bayers desire for a more upscale style theater, not to simply do away with the theater.  I think Bayer would actually be interested in getting a Rave in the Summit or a Muvico (I think that's the name) that tends to be a bit nicer and more upscale.

As for Bruno's, I've heard the same rumors there as well but again, I think Bayers intention would be to draw a more upscale grocer.  There's a large population in that immediate area that shops Brunos and with the closing of the Western behind the Summit, there's a good demand for a grocery store.  I could see the redelopment of the BBB and Old Navy areas upon the end of their leases as the Summit moves away from junior anchors and toward more upscale tenants however.

As for the Galleria, just to make sure you realize, I'm not referring to the Just for Feet in the food court, I'm talking about the free standing building on the outside loop road.  And I think it would do just fine there.  The Galleria isn't Lenox I agree but it's also not just some plain regional mall either.  There are several upper-end in-line stores at the Galleria and they continue to pursue others.  With the Summit fast approaching it's building limits, the Galleria will be in a position to start picking up other new comers to the market and start moving the mall further up-market.  I think this has been something the management has been working on for years actually although it's a very slow process.

Given the right length of time, I think the Galleria could come to closely rival Lenox.  If, for some reason, JC Penny and Sears ever decide to leave the mall for stand-alone locations near by, count on mall management to go after another semi-upscale anchor along the lines of Nordstrom.  It would be a stretch, but Macy's might even push for a Bloomingdales if given the opportunity at the Galleria.

I have curiously wondered that myself about Riverchase being able to pull a Bloomingdale's.  Although Charlotte has being viaing for one for a minute, I don't know if Macy's Inc. would open one here before there.  As for the Summit, Bayer is aggressively pushing for a more upscale center there.  Within 5 years, I see Brookwood, the Summit, and Riverchase all viaing to be this region's upscale destination.  However, Riverchase will probably fulfill both the upscale and regional destination requirements.

[rtkenmore]

Leonard23, on Jul 1 2008, 03:44 PM, said:

I have curiously wondered that myself about Riverchase being able to pull a Bloomingdale's.  Although Charlotte has being viaing for one for a minute, I don't know if Macy's Inc. would open one here before there.  As for the Summit, Bayer is aggressively pushing for a more upscale center there.  Within 5 years, I see Brookwood, the Summit, and Riverchase all viaing to be this region's upscale destination.  However, Riverchase will probably fulfill both the upscale and regional destination requirements.

Unfortunately the problem with both Brookwood and the Summit is the lack of space.  Both centers are basically built out completely and it would be hard to add more retail square footage without going up in some way.  Brookwood could possibly do an exterior garage of some sort and reclaim some of the garage space under the current mall for additional inline space but there's virtually no where for an additional anchor to go.  They are also going to limit their expansion possibilities with the addition of the rumored Westin on the 280 end of the mall.

Don't get me wrong, the Galleria doesn't exactly have a lot of space to expand into either but they already have the multi-story parking garage going in their favor.  I think residents would fight any large-scale parking expansions at the Summit or Brookwood.  The Galleria on the other hand could expand the northern garage into the area next to JC Penny's and then reclaim parking areas on other portions of the property for an outdoor Lifestyle expansion possible in the space between Macys entrance/mall entrance/upper level McRaes entrance.  They could have a single loop road come in from the Galleria Circle and loop through that area and then back out to Galleria Circle.  You could have some parrallel parking like Brookwood and a Valet Drop Off area as well.  This would allow for a fairly large addition of a streetscape lifestyle area and be a potential location for several new restaurants and shops.

Another location that could be a possibility but would probably be fought would be around Penny's and Belk so that it's visible from 459.

I know all very visionary ideas but will probably take years to come to fruition if ever...

At least I'm not proposing the Olympics at Regions Park for 2020.

[VistaLakes01]

Leonard23, on Jul 1 2008, 02:44 PM, said:

I have curiously wondered that myself about Riverchase being able to pull a Bloomingdale's.  Although Charlotte has being viaing for one for a minute, I don't know if Macy's Inc. would open one here before there.  As for the Summit, Bayer is aggressively pushing for a more upscale center there.  Within 5 years, I see Brookwood, the Summit, and Riverchase all viaing to be this region's upscale destination.  However, Riverchase will probably fulfill both the upscale and regional destination requirements.

I agree that Riverchase will be Birmingham's Signature shopping destination, like South Park in Charlotte, Millenia, Florida, and Altamonte Malls in Orlando, Aventura and Dadeland in Miami, Westshore and International Plaza in Tampa, Lenox/Phipps in Atlanta, The Galleria in Houston, etc. How many square feet in the Saks in the Summit? Saks has a reputation of opening smaller stores in some markets such as Sarasota and Naples, much like Jacobson's did in the past and is now doing again in Florida under new ownership.  Jacobson's has returned to Winter Park's Park Avenue, and another location in Naples.  The difference between a lifestyle center and Park Ave. and First St. in Naples or Miracle Mile in Coral Gables is they are the main streets of affluent cities and people and offices are clustered in those areas. Most lifestyle centers here in Orlando are being built as downtowns for suburban cities that really never had a downtown. Nordstrom chose Riverchase because it knows that's the place to be.  Enclosed malls are not going out of style, they are re-inventing themselves.  They are weather-resistant and eco friendly in comparison to a strip mall disguising itself as a "lifestyle center." The only major metro in Florida that I know of that is using a lifestyle center as a true shopping destination is Jacksonville with St. John's Town Center, probably because there is no true signature mall in that city.  Lifestyle centers can put enclosed malls out of business, but they are not the true destination malls in those cities. A good example is Northland Mall in Columbus, Ohio.  Easton Town Center contributed to it's downfall, but a few years later Columbus got a new shopping destination called Polaris Fashion Center.  Riverchase will be a new mall again in the near future, because it isn't a dash-in, dash-out center, it is an experience. Nordstrom knows that. If the Summit actually had a large amount of residential incorporated in to it, that would be a different story. http://www.uptownaltamonte.com/ is a good example of lifestyle done right, they fail to mention that it is connected to a rejuvenated regional mall, Altamonte Mall, and that's where the major retail players are located.

[bhamsly]

I can see the triangle of south Birmingham malls(The Summit, Brookwood, & the Galleria) becoming destination centers. I really wish that the other Birmingham city mall(other than The Summit), Century Plaza, could be a successful mall once again. I would love to see Century Plaza remain a 2-level enclosed mall, with stores similar to that of The Pinnacle. The demographics(in terms of income) are very similar...correct me if I am wrong. The new Century Plaza could pick up the lower scale stores that are currently at Brookwood Mall, and replace them in the new CP, such as Body Shop, Charlotte Russe, Wet Seal, Know Style, and Aeropostale, in addition to new stores(Dillards, The Limited, Forever 21, GAP, Build a Bear,etc). With that idea, Brookwood would have a couple of spaces to lure upscale tenants who are wanting to be in the area, but lack a location.

The new CP could just be a family mall that is  less expensive, and larger than Brookwood. It could also be a mall for everyone...ranging from low to higher incomes...urban to preppy styles, etc. I wish the malls owners would do something to help this mall out. I believe with Irondale, Mountain Brook, and the growth of Crestwood and Avondale, the mall should be reinvented.

[VistaLakes01]

bhamsly, on Jul 1 2008, 08:53 PM, said:

I can see the triangle of south Birmingham malls(The Summit, Brookwood, & the Galleria) becoming destination centers. I really wish that the other Birmingham city mall(other than The Summit), Century Plaza, could be a successful mall once again. I would love to see Century Plaza remain a 2-level enclosed mall, with stores similar to that of The Pinnacle. The demographics(in terms of income) are very similar...correct me if I am wrong. The new Century Plaza could pick up the lower scale stores that are currently at Brookwood Mall, and replace them in the new CP, such as Body Shop, Charlotte Russe, Wet Seal, Know Style, and Aeropostale, in addition to new stores(Dillards, The Limited, Forever 21, GAP, Build a Bear,etc). With that idea, Brookwood would have a couple of spaces to lure upscale tenants who are wanting to be in the area, but lack a location.

The new CP could just be a family mall that is  less expensive, and larger than Brookwood. It could also be a mall for everyone...ranging from low to higher incomes...urban to preppy styles, etc. I wish the malls owners would do something to help this mall out. I believe with Irondale, Mountain Brook, and the growth of Crestwood and Avondale, the mall should be reinvented.

They could to the CP what developers did to the Winter Park Mall here along time ago.  Tear down most of it, they used the old Dillards for industrial loft apartments, the JCPenney became a grocery store. They built a main street connecting to the main hyw in front, lined it with shops with offices and apts above, put in those stores you mentioned plus lots of dining with lots of patio dining. They could put something semi-major, like a West Elm Store. Cost-Plus World Bazarre, a Season's 52 would be a great anchor restaurant, it's a Darden Prototype started here in Orlando in Dardenworld.  Bahama Breeze is another Darden restaurant that doesn't have many locations, Brio Tuscan Grille, PF Changs, another Cheescake Factory, McCormick & Schmick, a BLUE MARTINI. would blow Birmingham away, that is a popular place everywhere it's located. Johhny Rockets, CPK, and at the end of main st. (the name of the main st. in WP Village is actually called Gay Rd. of all things, because it hooked to an older st. with that name) is a REGAL 21 Theater that show "art movies" along with another beloved theater down the steet.  Parking garage on some vacant land, and a park to walk through with pond, fountain, etc.  Would people drive to something like that from wealthier areas along with the residents in that area?

[bhamsly]

metrowester, on Jul 4 2008, 01:40 AM, said:

They could to the CP what developers did to the Winter Park Mall here along time ago.  Tear down most of it, they used the old Dillards for industrial loft apartments, the JCPenney became a grocery store. They built a main street connecting to the main hyw in front, lined it with shops with offices and apts above, put in those stores you mentioned plus lots of dining with lots of patio dining. They could put something semi-major, like a West Elm Store. Cost-Plus World Bazarre, a Season's 52 would be a great anchor restaurant, it's a Darden Prototype started here in Orlando in Dardenworld.  Bahama Breeze is another Darden restaurant that doesn't have many locations, Brio Tuscan Grille, PF Changs, another Cheescake Factory, McCormick & Schmick, a BLUE MARTINI. would blow Birmingham away, that is a popular place everywhere it's located. Johhny Rockets, CPK, and at the end of main st. (the name of the main st. in WP Village is actually called Gay Rd. of all things, because it hooked to an older st. with that name) is a REGAL 21 Theater that show "art movies" along with another beloved theater down the steet.  Parking garage on some vacant land, and a park to walk through with pond, fountain, etc.  Would people drive to something like that from wealthier areas along with the residents in that area?

I truly think that wealthier people would go there for the most part, I'm not totally sure. The areas to the South, East, and West part of that center are pretty good neighborhoods(especially towards the South). The area already boasts Red Lobster, Olive Garden, and Logan's, so I think these new restaurants would be a welcoming addition to a revitalized center. Birmingham already boasts Bahama Breeze(recently closed for no reason),The Cheesecake Factory, CPK(2), PF Changs, Johnny Rockets(2),and Brio Tuscan Grille. I think that Blue MArtini looks great, and would be a great asset for this area. At one point, there was talk about the mall being redeveloped into a towncenter with offices, and shops. I just hope that something great would happen to this mall, and to make the area great again.

[VistaLakes01]

bhamsly, on Jul 4 2008, 12:05 PM, said:

I truly think that wealthier people would go there for the most part, I'm not totally sure. The areas to the South, East, and West part of that center are pretty good neighborhoods(especially towards the South). The area already boasts Red Lobster, Olive Garden, and Logan's, so I think these new restaurants would be a welcoming addition to a revitalized center. Birmingham already boasts Bahama Breeze(recently closed for no reason),The Cheesecake Factory, CPK(2), PF Changs, Johnny Rockets(2),and Brio Tuscan Grille. I think that Blue MArtini looks great, and would be a great asset for this area. At one point, there was talk about the mall being redeveloped into a towncenter with offices, and shops. I just hope that something great would happen to this mall, and to make the area great again.

I know the Vestavia/Hoover area but not really the other parts of town.  Where is Century Plaza located?  The name sounds kind of retro and cool now, sure it's from the 50s or 60s.

[eastcentralalabamateen]

metrowester, on Jul 4 2008, 05:31 PM, said:

I know the Vestavia/Hoover area but not really the other parts of town. Where is Century Plaza located? The name sounds kind of retro and cool now, sure it's from the 50s or 60s.

Century Plaza is located across from the former Eastwood Mall/new Wal*Mart Supercenter on Crestwood Blvd (U.S. Highway 78) off of the I-20/Oporto-Madrid Blvd S interchange.
It's only anchor of right now is a Sears. I don't know what happened to the other anchors, except the McRae's that used to be there.

[jeb1974]

eastcentralalabamateen, on Jul 4 2008, 09:37 PM, said:

Century Plaza is located across from the former Eastwood Mall/new Wal*Mart Supercenter on Crestwood Blvd (U.S. Highway 78) off of the I-20/Oporto-Madrid Blvd S interchange.
It's only anchor of right now is a Sears. I don't know what happened to the other anchors, except the McRae's that used to be there.

Rich's (now Macy's) closed around 2004 due to underperformance.  The McRae's location was converted to Belk and closed very shortly afterwards.  I think that JCPenney closed when it opened a Trussville location at the Pinnacle.

I believe that Century Plaza's original anchors were Rich's, Loveman's, JCPenney, and Sears.  After Loveman's closed all of its stores due to bankruptcy, Pizitz relocated to the Loveman's space from Eastwood Mall.  Pizitz sold out to Jackson, MS based McRae's in 1987.  McRae's merged with Proffitt's during the 1990's but kept its name.  Proffitt's, Inc. acquired Birmingham based Parisian in 1996 and Saks Fifth Avenue in 1998; they changed the corporation name then to Saks Incorporated.  In the end, Saks Incorporated sold all of its department stores and Saks Fifth Avenue returned its headquarters to New York.  McRae's and Proffitt's and later Parisian were sold to Belk.  I believe most of their other department stores were sold to the Bon-Ton.

[kayman]

bhamsly, on Jul 4 2008, 01:05 PM, said:

I truly think that wealthier people would go there for the most part, I'm not totally sure. The areas to the South, East, and West part of that center are pretty good neighborhoods(especially towards the South). The area already boasts Red Lobster, Olive Garden, and Logan's, so I think these new restaurants would be a welcoming addition to a revitalized center. Birmingham already boasts Bahama Breeze(recently closed for no reason),The Cheesecake Factory, CPK(2), PF Changs, Johnny Rockets(2),and Brio Tuscan Grille. I think that Blue MArtini looks great, and would be a great asset for this area. At one point, there was talk about the mall being redeveloped into a towncenter with offices, and shops. I just hope that something great would happen to this mall, and to make the area great again.

I agree that Century Plaza can be redeveloped into a mixed-used center if General Growth Properties would get off their hands and stop just watching the center to continue to decline.  Crestwood is continuing to see more growth and increases in residences with disposable income that could support a revamped center with anchors like Sears, a trendy box chain store along with 2 additional junior anchors and numerous shops.  It wouldn't even be outside of the realm of possibility that a movie theatre couldn't return to the area that plays more independent and artsy films that caters to the Crestwood and Montclair demographic.

[kayman]

http://blog.al.com/b...ordstrom_s.html

It looks like the Nordstrom for Riverchase is cancelled by GGP due to it bankruptcy filing.  The Nordstrom officials said that they are still actively searching to open a store in the area, but since GGP cancelled the store themselves.

[kayman]

Its seems although the Nordstrom was cancelled for the mall, the mall is set to gain a Lego store.  The company has already opened a page dedicated to the new store:  http://stores.lego.c...andingPage.aspx

[DigitalSky]

Does anyone thing Nordstrom will reconsider if/when the economy improves?

[dusty87]

Nordstrom isn't coming, but we've gotten news that Von Maur, who recently opened up in Atlanta at NorthPoint are!

http://blog.al.com/s...store_prop.html

[DigitalSky]

Obviously good news for the mall and Birmingham, but I'll hate to see Von Maur renovate that cool Macy*s facade.