405 replies to this topic

[kermit]

While the evidence is not entirely clear yet it does appear that the Seattle South Lake Union Streetcar (aka S L U T) has catalyzed a considerable amount of development.

Charlotte's starter segment is not well selected for maximizing new development. Ultimately the streetcar is about increasing circulation (e.g. short trips) within downtown and between downtown and its adjacent neighborhoods -- making downtown, five points, elizabeth and central avenue more like a single neighborhood. Once this is accomplished more people will be willing to get out of their cars and live more urban lifestyles.

[ah59396]

Well let's hope this isn't an ugly example of poor transit planning for us.  I live in that area and cringe at the thought of seeing an empty $50 million streetcar riding back and forth down Trade St.  If we want to give the anti-mass transit people out there ammo, I have a bad feeling this may be it.  We wont get those "look at how great this is" type numbers we saw from the LRT out of this line, which will make it difficult to justify moving forward.

Again, I want it to happen, but I also know the reality of politics and hype in transit planning.

[southslider]

kermit, on 20 September 2011 - 10:34 AM, said:

Charlotte's starter segment is not well selected for maximizing new development.

There appear to be multiple vacant and underutilized blocks either side of Elizabeth Avenue between Charlottetowne Avenue and Hawthorne Lane.  This area is all part of a master-planned, mixed-use, new development, called "Elizabeth Village."

All successful streetcars in the US paired redevelopment areas with existing destinations.  In Portland, you have both the University and the Pearl District connected to the CBD.  In Charlotte, you will have destinations like CPCC and Presby connected to the CBD, as well as Elizabeth Village.

I suggest any critic of the starter route actually walk it and ride it (Gold Rush and multiple bus routes).  The Gold Rush and buses are very full (of riders).  And the blocks of Elizabeth Village are very ripe (for development).  In all, this route strikes a good balance for both immediate and sustained success.

[kermit]

southslider, on 20 September 2011 - 11:29 AM, said:

  I suggest any critic of the starter route actually walk it and ride it (Gold Rush and multiple bus routes). The Gold Rush and buses are very full (of riders). And the blocks of Elizabeth Village are very ripe (for development). In all, this route strikes a good balance for both immediate and sustained success.

Fair enough, I'll belatedly admit that I don't spend much time on Elizabeth ave. My mental image of it is that it is fully developed (even though I know that there are many empty storefronts and vacant lots behind the first row of stores). My image of the intown stretch of the line is one filled with government buildings and little else -- again not reflective of reality. The great advantage of all of this is a ready made source of ridership. Thanks for helping me see this.

[dbull75]

I'm usually not a pessimist, but I fail to see how this 1.5 mile starter line for a streetcar will generate all the investment and jobs (~400??) that they claim it will. To me it doesn't have the power that the Light Rail line has shown. I think the money invested could be used better elsewhere, such as expanding the Gold Rush service or towards the BLE extension (yea, I know it's a drop in the bucket for BLE work and is considered to be in a different pocket of funds but I'm speaking more in principal). I'd hate to see the anti-mass transit bunch get any ammo when the light rail has generally been a rousing success.

[southslider]

^Rail critics will criticize no matter what, as they continually have, even after South Corridor's success.

Often overlooked, the collective bus routes already serving CPCC today have a transit-vehicle frequency that far exceeds the LYNX line.  The 9-Central bus, by itself, is more frequent than the Blue Line.  However, CPCC is additionally served by the 27-Monroe, 14-Providence, 15-Randolph, 20-Sharon, and 39-Eastway.  If not streetcar, this corridor already has the transit demand to support an upgrade to Sprinter buses, articulated buses or other capacity enhancements.  And yet if worried about ridership (since all of these carry passengers beyond Presby), one need only look to the recent success of extending the Gold Rush to Presby.

Of course, the huge plus of streetcar, over other warranted transit improvements, is development.  But even when talking development, South Corridor hasn't exactly seen much outside a comparable segment in South End, where station spacing mirrors streetcar (indeed replacing a trolley on this segment).

So again, this starter project makes sense, both in terms of transportation needs (existing ridership already there), as well as return on investment (development area comparable to South End).  If anything, I worry more about finding a comparable segment for the next phase of streetcar to repeat this starter segment's ensured success.

[dubone]

I agree there certainly should be enough ridership to not be an embarrassment, as there should be enough people connecting from the hospital, CPCC, and Met Midtown to the Lynx, bus system and simply going to uptown.  I worry though that either they will have to set the precedence of it being free in this zone, or else risk losing many riders over the current Gold Rush, which goes farther west and is free.  I don't know that they will let this be free, although they ought to.

[norm21499]

If it is not going to free, then the transit system needs to charge a significantly reduced fare for the streetcar since the line is so short. the fare should not be the normal bus or train fare until the line is much longer.

[cltbwimob]

I think someone here brought up  the idea of running the trolley west of downtown along the old P&N line.

http://nakedcityblog...hrough-new.html

[The Escapists]

If this line were to be built, it would be very similar to Boston's Ashmont-Mattapan extension.
The Mattapan trolley is an extension of one leg of Boston's Red Line that sends an historic electric trolley down a former freight ROW. It goes through an historic neighborhood alongside a greenway too.
Here's a cool video:

[thetrick]

cltbwimob, on 26 October 2011 - 03:26 PM, said:

I think someone here brought up  the idea of running the trolley west of downtown along the old P&N line.

http://nakedcityblog...hrough-new.html

Only about 1 mile of track could be available to them as CSX is still serving industrial customers on the old P&N line. But 1 mile is better than no miles and could be a catalyst for something larger.

[kermit]

Does anyone have a link to the streetcar construction timeline? I swore that I saw the city say construction would begin this year but I can't find the source for that.

If it is scheduled to begin construction this year I would like to get it added to the list of projects for 2012 at the Transportation Politic .

[tozmervo]

It starts Q1 of 2013 (I had the same thought re: Transport Politic)

[kermit]

^ gezzz, why do they keep pushing it? Wasn't the grant from 2.5 years ago? Isn't all the cash in place?

(whining aside, thanks for the update)

[tozmervo]

Well, I've seen a couple of media types reference December 2012 as the start date for construction. I can't find anything conclusive, though.

[The Escapists]

I seem to remember them saying Dec 2012... not sure if I'm making that up. I just remember thinking they might try to have it under construction during the DNC as a talking-point... and being surprised that wasn't the case.

[southslider]

^Best to break ground before January 2013, lest you risk a new Administration pulling your funding.

[ajfunder]

I think the main reason for the delay in Construction is that they don't want trade street torn up during the convention. On the otherhand streetcar construction could create a legitamate excuse to close trade street during the convention plus for security reasons of course.
Alex

[kermit]

/begin wildly unrealistic speculation/

The talk about running the trolly along the old P&N route from the stadium up to Seversville combined with Southsider's idea to run up Graham street to the planned streetcar route got me thinking about what I would do if I had an extra $50-70 million laying around -- it would go into this streetcar branch line: http://g.co/maps/k6tzm

The north end would use the old P&N line that Charlotte trolly is talking about resurrecting, single track is in place. The line would terminate at an old and abandoned textile mill in Seversville http://g.co/maps/4w72j  that looks ripe for multi-family development and perhaps some developer contribution to streetcar costs (a small park and ride could also go here). While I initially thought of this segment as sleepy there is actually a great deal of existing and possible multi-family development near by (Skybridge, Wesley Village, Celedon, the old Beazer site, the gravel lot off Cedar St. and several other sites between Seversville and the Stadium. This stretch could see residential development similar to Southend.

A very short section of new track would need to be built connecting Cedar St to Graham st. Polaris shows that there is a rail easement for these tracks through the Hartigan's parking lot and the still existing underpass beneath the NS main line at the stadium -- track was here before, it does not look like substantial work would be needed to replace it. The line could run on the street along Graham up to Trade where it would merge into the planned streetcar line at Gateway station. This looks like about 2 miles -- perhaps $25 million since the ROW exists, no major structural work is necessary and the cars would use an existing maintenance center. Spurring development along west Graham (possibly the ugliest section of uptown) would also be a bonus.

The route would continue east on Trade on the 'real' streetcar tracks to Kings drive.

From Trade the streetcar would turn south on Kings passing Met Midtown, jog over to Kenilworth at Pearl Park Way, pass CMC and then turn west onto East blvd. The line would run in the street all the way to East-West station. At this point the streetcar could either reverse direction or travel on the LRT into town. This 'Kings branch'  looks to be 2.5 miles (?), I'll optimistically put the cost at $30 million.  

$60 million would firmly tie Wesley Heights (two streetcar routes), Dilworth (streetcar and LRT), Midtown and Cherry to downtown. Using dedicated equipment for this route would have the effect of increasing frequency on the vital Kings drive to Gateway station section of track -- improving center city circulation. As a bonus the line would connect CMC and the new medical school to the transit network and possibly spur high density growth to the north of center city.

One downside -- a streetcar on the old P&N tracks would prevent commuter rail on this route to Mt. Holly and Gastonia.

While the money certainly isn't just laying around, CATS may end up with some extra cash if the North line doesn't work out....

/end wildly unrealistic speculation/

Edited by kermit, 16 January 2012 - 12:10 PM.

[kermit]

The Charlotte Post is reporting that Kay Hagan visited JCSU on Tuesday as part of her duties on the Senate Education Committee. The Post reports that in addition to discussion about JCSU inside the fence there was a substantial amount of lobbying for federal funds for corridor revitalization including the streetcar.

Hagan was quoted:

Quote

“There are so many needs out there, but we’ve got to have a good road system, a good development system that can connect a university to our downtown areas, and when we look at the Lynx system here in Charlotte – something that’s working well – we need to continue the development of that.”

I won't nitpick Hagan on the difference between the Lynx and Streetcar.

While this was described as no more than a discussion, this does represent the kind of federal arm twisting (jockeying for earmarks) that Charlotte has done a poor job with in the past (IMO). The article left me optimistic that some Charlotte powerbrokers (like Ron Carter) are both using effective language ("connecting distressed communities") with the right people in DC (Hagan's office was quick to take credit for last month's TIGER grant).

http://www.thecharlo...News&refno=4302