485 replies to this topic

[mzweig]

Mith242, on Aug 19 2006, 01:25 PM, said:

I haven't seen any of Bentonville's trails.  Concrete and asphalt each have their postive aspects.  I never though about why Fayetteville hasn't built any concrete trails as opposed to asphalt.

Concrete is more expensive to do than asphalt.......

[Mith242]

mzweig, on Aug 29 2006, 02:05 PM, said:

Concrete is more expensive to do than asphalt.......

True, but I still wonder in some instances if it's not worth it in the long run.  I think concrete tends to last a lot longer than asphalt.

[masons_dad1]

Mith242, on Aug 29 2006, 02:45 PM, said:

True, but I still wonder in some instances if it's not worth it in the long run.  I think concrete tends to last a lot longer than asphalt.

I got this comparison between Concrete and Asphalt from the 88-page Bentonville Trails Master Plan Draft.

Concrete
Advantages
• Hardest, most long-lived surface.
• Easy to form on-site.
• Supports many uses and provides good accessibility.
• Lowest maintenance costs.
• Best cold-weather surface, resists break-up from freeze-thaw cycles
• Works well in sandy soils.
• Accommodates maintenance vehicles.
Disadvantages
• Expensive to build and repair.
• Not a natural or permeable surface.
• Construction vehicles need trial access.
• Surface lacks resiliency for hikers and runners.
Applications
• Community trails.
• Trails with high use and diverse user types.
• Trail with challenging sub-grade conditions.
• Segments with high susceptibility to erosion.

Asphalt
Advantages
• Hard surface, offering little rolling resistence when new.
• More resilient than concrete for pedestrians.
• Easy to construct.
• Supports many uses and provides good accessibility.
• Lower construction cost than concrete.
• Accommodates maintenance vehicles.
Disadvantages
• Less durable than concrete and more subject to freeze-thaw breakup.
• Higher cost than unpaved surfaces.
• Not a natural or permeable surface.
• Construction vehicles need trail access.
Applications
• Community trails.
• Trails with high use and diverse user types.
• Segments with high susceptibility to erosion.

Bentonville is spending more money on their trail system, but it's taking a lot longer to complete than Fayetteville's and Bentonville has a long way to catch up with Fayetteville's trail system.

[Mith242]

Thanks for that info.  I wonder if Fayetteville simply took the asphalt route because of the costs.  They can get more done for the same amount of money.  Either that or they didn't even think of the concrete option.

[masons_dad1]

Mith242, on Aug 30 2006, 05:15 AM, said:

Thanks for that info.  I wonder if Fayetteville simply took the asphalt route because of the costs.  They can get more done for the same amount of money.  Either that or they didn't even think of the concrete option.

I'm sure Fayetteville leaders considered concrete. One thing the comparison doesn't have that I read in the Bentonville Trail Master Plan is that most hikers and riders prefer asphalt over concrete for it's resiliency. Asphalt absorbs more impact from walking or jogging than concrete and over time asphalt actually adjusts to stress by becoming misshapen whereas concrete just cracks and becomes annoying if not dangerous to joggers. So Fayetteville may have gone with what people preferred over a more expensive but less desirable surface.

[Mith242]

masons_dad1, on Aug 30 2006, 08:38 AM, said:

I'm sure Fayetteville leaders considered concrete. One thing the comparison doesn't have that I read in the Bentonville Trail Master Plan is that most hikers and riders prefer asphalt over concrete for it's resiliency. Asphalt absorbs more impact from walking or jogging than concrete and over time asphalt actually adjusts to stress by becoming misshapen whereas concrete just cracks and becomes annoying if not dangerous to joggers. So Fayetteville may have gone with what people preferred over a more expensive but less desirable surface.

That very well could be the case.  That does make sense as well.

[Mith242]

Here's a map of the Fayetteville Trail System I got while talking to the mayor.  Hopefully this isn't too small, if so I can try to post a larger version.  Or I can take a pic focusing on a particular area.  Just ask if anyone is interested.  The red are the completed sections.  The blue are planned trails.  As you can see on the map, there's a lot of blue and not a lot of red.  

[Mith242]

Just to recap the news the bond for the Scull Creek Trail passed.  I'm not sure what time frame we're looking at but I'm assuming work will eventually begin on it.  It will connect the Frisco Trail and the Mudd Creek Trail.  I'll eventually try to post a closeup of the Fayetteville trail system map showing this future trail.

[Mith242]

Here's a closer up view of this particular section of the Fayetteville Trail System.  The Scull Creek Trail is the major north-south trail on the lefthand side of the map.  You can just barely see a part of the Frisco Trail to the south and the Mudd Creek Trail to the north.  Both of those are in red because they've been completed.

[Mith242]

There was an article in today's Northwest Arkansas Times with some info about the Scull Creek Trail.  So far still not a lot of info on a timeline.  It did mention that by this time next year it should be well under way with a completion date.  Although I was hoping to hear something before then.  Some of it will have to wait on some other projects like the Gregg St widening.  I hadn't realized it but apparently some of it is already done near Washington Regional.  But it also said it's not easy to access it right now because of the construction work going on at the hospital.  It did also mention that they will be looking for a way to move pedestrians above or below North St.  Two lane roads seem to just get a crosswalk but the larger streets so far have found access underneath by way of bridges.  So far no bridges have been built but at some point that may change.  Sounds like they are looking to put in something under the elevated Fulbright Expressway bridge or a lighted tunnel underneath the expressway.

[Mith242]

Well I might have read the article wrong.  Because KNWA was acting like this time next year the Scull Creek Trail will be complete.

[Thia]

masons_dad1, on Aug 30 2006, 08:38 AM, said:

I'm sure Fayetteville leaders considered concrete. One thing the comparison doesn't have that I read in the Bentonville Trail Master Plan is that most hikers and riders prefer asphalt over concrete for it's resiliency. Asphalt absorbs more impact from walking or jogging than concrete and over time asphalt actually adjusts to stress by becoming misshapen whereas concrete just cracks and becomes annoying if not dangerous to joggers. So Fayetteville may have gone with what people preferred over a more expensive but less desirable surface.

The parts of Mud Creek trail that are most likely to get flooded -under the bridges, low spots- are concrete. I'm sure the city carefully weighed the options before building. The master trail plan that was created displays that they did their homework on trail systems and construction.

Scull Creek trail will take a while to complete. There are several issues: the tough job of negotiating all the easements from different property owners, the sewer project (in some places the trails parallel the sewer lines- no sense in creating the trail now just to tear it up when the sewer is updated) and the Gregg Street redo. The north end of the Scull creek trail will go under the Fulbright Freeway in a 10’x10‘ concrete box/culvert/whatever-it’s-called that may already exist. It will be lit. I think Coody said it was 100’ in length! For a while the north part of Scull Creek trail will end at Gordon Long Park until the work on Gregg Street is done… then the trail will go under Gregg Street. Work on easements has been ongoing for the past few years and continues all along Scull Creek.  I can't wait for the north part of Scull Creek to be connected to the Mud Creek Trail.

By the way the Frisco Trail, build on the old Frisco rail bed, is currently the only lighted trail in Fayetteville. The expense was easily justified because of it's proximity to downtown, the volume of traffic, the anticipated use both day and night, and of course for safety. In the trail master plan this trail was called the Prairie-Center trail after its start and end points.

I used to be on the Trails and Sidewalks Task Force. The city folks that work on our trails do a great job. They are proud of their work and always seem to complete more linear feet each year then their goal. The teams that work on trails –both the planning and building- are very enthusiastic about making Fayetteville trails great. Oh... and the trail planning guy is one of my neighbors... ask away and I'll get the answers.

[Mith242]

Thia, on Oct 3 2006, 03:47 PM, said:

The parts of Mud Creek trail that are most likely to get flooded -under the bridges, low spots- are concrete. I'm sure the city carefully weighed the options before building. The master trail plan that was created displays that they did their homework on trail systems and construction.

Scull Creek trail will take a while to complete. There are several issues: the tough job of negotiating all the easements from different property owners, the sewer project (in some places the trails parallel the sewer lines- no sense in creating the trail now just to tear it up when the sewer is updated) and the Gregg Street redo. The north end of the Scull creek trail will go under the Fulbright Freeway in a 10’x10‘ concrete box/culvert/whatever-it’s-called that may already exist. It will be lit. I think Coody said it was 100’ in length! For a while the north part of Scull Creek trail will end at Gordon Long Park until the work on Gregg Street is done… then the trail will go under Gregg Street. Work on easements has been ongoing for the past few years and continues all along Scull Creek.  I can't wait for the north part of Scull Creek to be connected to the Mud Creek Trail.

By the way the Frisco Trail, build on the old Frisco rail bed, is currently the only lighted trail in Fayetteville. The expense was easily justified because of it's proximity to downtown, the volume of traffic, the anticipated use both day and night, and of course for safety. In the trail master plan this trail was called the Prairie-Center trail after its start and end points.

I used to be on the Trails and Sidewalks Task Force. The city folks that work on our trails do a great job. They are proud of their work and always seem to complete more linear feet each year then their goal. The teams that work on trails –both the planning and building- are very enthusiastic about making Fayetteville trails great. Oh... and the trail planning guy is one of my neighbors... ask away and I'll get the answers.

Cool, more inside info.      I'm hoping you can answer some questions for me.  First of all I've heard two different things on the Scull Creek Trail.  One place mentioned simply that it would be well under way around this time next year.  But another source acted like it would be completed by around this time next year.  Which is it?  I certainly wouldn't mind it being completed in a year but that seems a bit short considering what all is going to be involved.  I also heard a possibility of a putting some sort of pedestrian bridge next to or underneath the overpass by the Fulbright Rxpressway.  Just curious if that is still an option or if it's certain now that it will be a tunnel underneath.  Also any ideas what they'll do for North St on the Scull Creek Trail?

[Thia]

Mith242, on Oct 3 2006, 04:16 PM, said:

Cool, more inside info.      I'm hoping you can answer some questions for me.  First of all I've heard two different things on the Scull Creek Trail.  One place mentioned simply that it would be well under way around this time next year.  But another source acted like it would be completed by around this time next year.  Which is it?  I certainly wouldn't mind it being completed in a year but that seems a bit short considering what all is going to be involved.  I also heard a possibility of a putting some sort of pedestrian bridge next to or underneath the overpass by the Fulbright Rxpressway.  Just curious if that is still an option or if it's certain now that it will be a tunnel underneath.  Also any ideas what they'll do for North St on the Scull Creek Trail?

To "complete", from Frisco to Mudd Creek, likely will take longer than a year... sewer, road contruction, easements all will create time and space obstacles. But as reasonable sections can be created, and make sense for enhancing connectivity, the city will piece the trail together as it can.  

My understanding is pedestrians will have their choice of using the exisiting sidewalk that is on the east side of Gregg and goes under the bridge.  OR they can take the lighted tunnel.  I'm under the impression the tunnel exists but has not been upgraded to be part of the trail yet.  I'll see what I can find out.

[Mith242]

Thia, on Oct 3 2006, 04:59 PM, said:

To "complete", from Frisco to Mudd Creek, likely will take longer than a year... sewer, road contruction, easements all will create time and space obstacles. But as reasonable sections can be created, and make sense for enhancing connectivity, the city will piece the trail together as it can.  

My understanding is pedestrians will have their choice of using the exisiting sidewalk that is on the east side of Gregg and goes under the bridge.  OR they can take the lighted tunnel.  I'm under the impression the tunnel exists but has not been upgraded to be part of the trail yet.  I'll see what I can find out.

Interesting.  I wonder after all of the Scull Creek Trail is done what the next step will be.

[masons_dad1]

Thia, on Oct 3 2006, 03:47 PM, said:

The north end of the Scull creek trail will go under the Fulbright Freeway in a 10’x10‘ concrete box/culvert/whatever-it’s-called that may already exist. It will be lit. I think Coody said it was 100’ in length! For a while the north part of Scull Creek trail will end at Gordon Long Park until the work on Gregg Street is done… then the trail will go under Gregg Street.

A 100' tunnel! Good Lord that sounds scary, but somewhat exciting at the same time. It's sounds modern and very urban, but I worry about safety and security. The North Bentonville Trail has a concrete tunnel that goes under a 2 lane road and it's pretty cool the way it's designed. Very modern, but I'm not too concerned about it because it's only about 30' long.

It does sound like Fayetteville is making great strides with trails and it's great to have a forum member who is involved with the trails.

[Mith242]

Yeah, it's also just nice to have another person that will also be interested in talking about it.  I realize this isn't the most exciting topic for some.  But I really seem to get into it.  

[cocothief]

Mith242, on Oct 3 2006, 08:57 PM, said:

Yeah, it's also just nice to have another person that will also be interested in talking about it.  I realize this isn't the most exciting topic for some.  But I really seem to get into it.  

I don't understand why this topic is in the coffehouse section.

Trails are urban development.

[masons_dad1]

cocothief, on Oct 4 2006, 11:06 AM, said:

I don't understand why this topic is in the coffehouse section.

Trails are urban development.

I agree. Heck even a topic about coffee shops shouldn't be in the Coffee House sub-forum.

[Thia]

Mith242, on Oct 3 2006, 05:11 PM, said:

Interesting.  I wonder after all of the Scull Creek Trail is done what the next step will be.

What’s next specifically?  I’ll try to get a list of what’s being worked on now and planned for 2007.  

For the big “ToDo List” of next steps check out Chapter 8 at http://www.accessfay...aster_plan.html
This lists the trails (2003 perspective) in priority.  (Chapter 5 describes the trails if the names don’t clearly describe them- or if the names have changed.)  Of course the trails don’t get created in perfect the order but the team is very aware and focused on making the higher priority trails happen sooner rather than later.  All kinds of things like street creation/repairs, stream reparation, engineering/design, sewer work, and easements determine what can happen and when.