113 replies to this topic

[Sparkleman]

Spartan, on Mar 24 2008, 08:29 AM, said:

I've often thought about a grocery store, and I am not sure where the ideal location would be. It needs to be near the center of downtown so that new residents there can walk to it. But it should also be near at least one other neighborhood and near a major road. My only concern with the Vic Bailey location on Daniel Morgan is that its so far removed from most of downtown that its almost not downtown anymore. Its too far for most people to walk to. Honestly, if they could tear down the Goodyear place at Kennedy & Church, they could build a nice midrise with a grocery store --ideally a Publix or Harris Teeter-- on that lot. It would have great visibility and access. Do you (or anyone else) have thoughts on that idea? Other ideas?

I think the Daniel Morgan location would be perfect as it is a 4 lane road along with access to Pine St, there is plenty of room for parking, and if its a Publix, Super Bi Lo, etc, Converse Heights folks would use it as well as most of the CH hate Ingles which is the closest grocery to them. You are going to be on the back side of Barnet Park so it would be an easy stop to pick up additional picnic items before an event. You would also be right down the street from Beaumont/Drayton which might help jump start that neighborhood. You also would be close to the Wofford St neighborhood which hasn't had a grocery since the Community Cash where Kapasi Glass is now closed many years ago.

If you put it where Goodyear is, thats less than a mile from where the new Sav More opened to serve HH and the city's southside. I also don't think folks would want to park in the Kennedy St parking deck (which they would have to due to no other place to park) and carry groceries that far.

[Spartan]

There was also a Community Cash on Union St where Carolina Cash Co. is now and on Pine Street where Express Music used to be, right?

What you say is true. But you're thinking in terms of a standard grocery store. Harris Teeter and Publix specialize in urban stores that are more compact (they have a smaller footprint) and therefore require less parking. They have them in most other larger cities in the state. Greenville has a new Publix on McBee Street that is this style. Columbia has one on Gervais and Rosewood. I think its important to serve the potential neighborhoods in and around downtown. Beaumont and Drayton have a shiny new Food Lion on Garner Rd to use

[Sparkleman]

Spartan, on Mar 24 2008, 02:59 PM, said:

There was also a Community Cash on Union St where Carolina Cash Co. is now and on Pine Street where Express Music used to be, right?

The Community Cash on Union was actually down from Carolina Cash where the Merit Co is now. There was not one on Pine St. Those stores were something called Colonial Grocery stores. They didn't last very long.

I know the type of store you are talking about but I really don't see that being a big hit here as people of the "SC" have always shopped at the bigger stores. Its probably because we have always had a lot of storage space in houses vs apartment living where space is limited. I just don't see folks walking to the grocery store and carrying groceries home in the rain if they don't have to. The type of store you are talking about may work when you get a lot more folks downtown (like Greenville has done over the last 15 years), but I think a standard one would do killer until we get to that point.

[Spartan]

Ah ok, I see the confusion. I was talking about in the future assuming that it would be at least that far out. I realize I didn't specifically say that. My apologies. There is no way we'll get a grocery store intown anywhere before then. IMO if we can't get an urban grocery store, we may as well not get one at all. Suburban design is not acceptable in downtown. Really what we need is a major white collar employer to move in to downtown. We could then support a larger drug store than Smith No. 1 and perhaps a small grocery store. This would also help boost demand for downtown housing, and probably boost the volume of people who can and who want to afford it.

[Sparkleman]

Well, I'll go ahead and disagree here. I think a grocery store planted on Daniel Morgan near Vic Bailey Lincoln/Mercury would be a smash hit. It doesn't need to be a monster store and it would be about 3-4 blocks away from the proposed action dowtown. Plus it would not be that easy to get to from downtown as Converse St stops at the CCC. But it would be easy for the folks of the surrounding neighborhoods to get to. I don't just mean Oakland Ave section and Converse Heights but also the neighborhood behind the county offices where the Spartan Mills plant used to be. They used to be serviced by the Community Cash on the corner of Evins St and Church and are another intown neighborhood that is conveniently forgotten. One of the ideas here is to get folks downtown and if a grocery store will do the job and stay out of the way, so be it.

[Spartan]

I still think its too close to that Food Lion. I think we're in agreement that a grocery store would be a good idea in downtown. I think we just disagree on the location and probably timing. One option that we haven't mentioned is that it could be built as an anchor in the new urban village that is proposed for Renaissance Park, or possibly along North Church somewhere. The parking lot behind the County Courthouse at St John & Daniel Morgan would be an ideal location. High traffic volume, high visibility, lots of parking, walkable to the downtown core...

I will agree that Vic Bailey needs to move out. That is a horrible place for a dealership. Oh and while we're moving car dealerships, Wakefield Buick and Joe Gibson's kingdom on West Main need to move too.

[Sparkleman]

If the grocery store were to be modeled after the ones on Hilton Head Island where they are subdued and blend in with the surroundings, I don't think it would matter where you put it. You may not remember but in addition to the original Food Lion that was at Pinewood into mid 70's to late 80's there was also a Community Cash (they were everywhere) over where Roses was (now Big Lots)an old style BiLo over where Sky City used to be. Thats 3 grocery stores within 1 mile and much like what takes place over at Hillcrest now. Face it, a grocery store really has to screw up to not make it. I still think the location on Daniel Morgan is good just because it is one of the larger blocks of land in downtown that is available.

I'm not too big on car lots either but at least they are not in the immediate way. Vic's empire used to be out past USC-Upstate but that was long ago and I don't see him moving back out there. His operown helped tear down the remnants of Gastown. If he would not have moved in town, who knows how long those horrible old "houses" may have stayed around.

[Spartan]

I just don't see people walking to that location from the core of downtown, or any of the in-town neighborhoods except that North Dean area and possibly the section of Beaumont that is behind Wofford. If a grocery store is going to locate downtown, walkability will be key.

[roads-scholar]

Spartan, on Mar 25 2008, 08:52 AM, said:

I just don't see people walking to that location from the core of downtown, or any of the in-town neighborhoods except that North Dean area and possibly the section of Beaumont that is behind Wofford. If a grocery store is going to locate downtown, walkability will be key.

I think a "walkable" location for an urban grocery store is somewhere on East Kennedy Street.  A developer would have to cobble together some property but a store at this location would be convenient for autos and pedestrians.  

I've always felt Kennedy Street was a hodgepodge of small businesses and downtown would benefit from a larger commercial development there.

[Sparkleman]

I'm sorry fellas but I just don't see the urban grocery store working out here until there are more folks downtown and even then it might be a stretch. I know you see it in other cities but we are not like other cities. Time moves way slower here. Heck, it took us 10 years just to get an Olive Garden (as if thats a big deal). People are not used to walking in the "SC" unless its for exercise. They are more apt to pick up groceries on the way home from work or to do some errand. I just don't see folks here making a special trip to the store and walking to do it. Call me backwards, but Spartanburg ain't NYC, Charlotte, or even close to Greenville.

[Spartan]

You're right, but we're going to be like them eventually. We've taken a liking to sprawl ala Greenville, so we should look to what they have done right and wrong and make our decisions accordingly. I always hear how we are about 10-15 years behind Greenville. IMO we should push for what will be best now, even though we may disagree on what is "best."

Also, regarding Olive Garden and national chains that Spartanburg is lacking, we have an entire thread on that, which you can view here: Why don't we have _____?

[Sparkleman]

Quote

Also, regarding Olive Garden and national chains that Spartanburg is lacking, we have an entire thread on that, which you can view here: Why don't we have _____?

I'm well aware of that thread, I just used Olive Garden as an example of how far behind in the game we are (not that I love the OG, its just that we were probably the last town of any size to get one). I hope we are going to get where we want to go and I think its good to use other cities as models of what worked and what did not. BUT, Spartanburg is unique in my opinion and goes against the grain a lot of times of what works in say Greenville will work here. A case in point is that I would love a REAL Butcher shop here in town. There is one in Greenville and several in Columbia, so I am sure there are a few in Charlotte. However the chances of that flying here are slim and none, at least not now.

Finally its good to disagree on this board. Thats what promotes everyone's opinion and opens new doors to new ideas.

[Spartan]

Sparkleman, on Mar 25 2008, 06:13 PM, said:

I'm well aware of that thread, I just used Olive Garden as an example of how far behind in the game we are (not that I love the OG, its just that we were probably the last town of any size to get one). I hope we are going to get where we want to go and I think its good to use other cities as models of what worked and what did not. BUT, Spartanburg is unique in my opinion and goes against the grain a lot of times of what works in say Greenville will work here. A case in point is that I would love a REAL Butcher shop here in town. There is one in Greenville and several in Columbia, so I am sure there are a few in Charlotte. However the chances of that flying here are slim and none, at least not now.

Finally its good to disagree on this board. Thats what promotes everyone's opinion and opens new doors to new ideas.

The most obvious reason for that is we don't have the population to support such things, though I admittedly don't know what it takes to support a butcher. Population doesn't explain the lack of chains, as was noted in that other thread.

[Sparkleman]

Spartan, on Mar 25 2008, 09:52 PM, said:

The most obvious reason for that is we don't have the population to support such things, though I admittedly don't know what it takes to support a butcher. Population doesn't explain the lack of chains, as was noted in that other thread.

It takes white collare jobs that can afford using a butcher vs the regular grocery store as the meat is better quality and offered in better cuts. I saw one in Asheville once that had a butcher shop on one side and a cheese and wine shop on the other. If you have ever been to Europe that's all they have. Talk about cool!!!

[hub-city]

We have a couple of butcher's here in Spartanburg do we not?  I went over to Lake Bowen meats the other day and they cut me some beautiful filets.  I think they also have a shop on the eastside called Eastside meat and produce.  There is also a nice wine and chesse shop on specialty row besides heavenly ham.  Carriage house wines downtonwn is also very nice.

[Sparkleman]

Where is east side meat and produce? Is it on the east side or downtown? No offense to Lake Bowen Meats, but I am not driving 15-20 miles for a butcher. I was expressing a desire for one in the downtown area.

[Jael]

Sparkleman, on Mar 27 2008, 08:33 AM, said:

Where is east side meat and produce?

yellowpages.com says it's on Union Street down at Camp Croft.

[travey]

It is on Union St. If you are travelling from downtown area it will be on the left before you reach the light at 295.  It is a small place located  beside a Automotive repair shop.  Nice people and pretty good deals.

[Sparkleman]

Is the quality of beef any different than a grocery store or the Fresh Market?

[Upstater]

Eastside Meets is located between Barnetts Garage and Bolton-James.  They are very friendly and have great cuts of meat.  I hardly make it to the Fresh Market anymore.  I buy all of my meat at Eastside and all of my seafood at Sellers.