112 replies to this topic

[markusparkus]

MJLO, on Feb 22 2007, 12:07 PM, said:

Metro to ask for more money to speed LRT up.

1.7billion is how much they want.  and it's not for the immediate, it's so they can finish by 2020, I had no idea that it was projected to take that long!!!

One of the opponents of it is a State senator from Havasu. Of course he'd be against it.  I have a feeling the rest of Arizona looks at the valley with disdain.

Arizona wouldn't really be much without Phoenix, much like Georgia wouldn't be anything without Atlanta. We're experiencing similar problems where people don't support their major city (or cities) in terms of growth or infrastructure...simply b/c they don't think they'll get anything out of it.

[ErinJ]

markusparkus, on Feb 22 2007, 03:13 PM, said:

Arizona wouldn't really be much without Phoenix, much like Georgia wouldn't be anything without Atlanta. We're experiencing similar problems where people don't support their major city (or cities) in terms of growth or infrastructure...simply b/c they don't think they'll get anything out of it.

The problem in Arizona is that Phoenix doesn't support the rest of the state in terms of growth or infrastructure, simply because they don't think they'll get anything out of it.  

[convulso]

markusparkus, on Feb 22 2007, 04:13 PM, said:

Arizona wouldn't really be much without Phoenix, much like Georgia wouldn't be anything without Atlanta. We're experiencing similar problems where people don't support their major city (or cities) in terms of growth or infrastructure...simply b/c they don't think they'll get anything out of it.

not an apt comparison, imho. georgia is in a region that is economically cutthroat with surrounding states in the region. the city of atlanta contributes significantly to the overall growth of the state, and most in GA see further growth as desirable, whether they attribute it to atlanta's influence or not. further, atlanta bears a cultural and historic significance in GA that cannot be matched by phoenix in AZ. atlanta has a share in the 'soul' of the state; i'd be freaked to find someone in AZ who would tell me the same of phoenix.

it's debatable whether many in AZ (outside the VOS metro) see growth as a good thing (especially at the rate it's occurred here, the fastest-growing state in the country). i certainly don't think that many people outside the big city here believe phoenix's growth helps the rest of the state (except perhaps in that chicken-and-egg sort of way that would not be necessary except for the growth...roads, cops, etc.) to the extent that eastern states' flagship cities tend to help theirs.

in addition, i believe that residents of either state, if they reside outside the major metros, would firmly assert that their states would indeed be something without their big cities..and i think i would side with them, especially in AZ. the absence of a phoenix (and 80 per cent of tucson, for that matter) would not diminish what i value about arizona one whit. i would miss atlanta, but georgia is a diverse place that keeps its secrets from those who aren't looking for them.

Edited by convulso, 22 February 2007 - 10:10 PM.

[colin]

Yeah, I think you're getting into that whole "cultural center" tag that I like to bring up a lot. Atlanta is definitively the cultural center of Georgia and I doubt anyone would question that. However, is Phoenix the cultural center of Arizona?
I'd say no, only because, collectively, Tucson just seems to have more culture: better bars, better music scene, more museums, a very comparable university (notice the deliberate omission of "better" there), a better arts scene, and a generally less-transient nature.
I'm not saying that Tucson is the cultural center of the state, but it's just definitely not Phoenix.

And, BTW, remember that it was those Valley SoB's in the legislature (looking at you, Jeff Flake) that tried to block our Rio Nuevo extension. Sure, Rio Nuevo is BS, but their motivation was solely "It's Tucson-related, so I'm against it". If you want to truly gauge how this I-10 rivalry is driving the light rail funding (something I strongly support, in spite of my general disdain for Phoenix Metro), look at Tim Bee, Republican senator from Tucson and now the president of the Senate. But don't automatically assume "Well, Tucson's going to stop this" just because Phoenix politicos try to pull that same crap with us and our politicians are going for some form of revenge. We're more mature than that!

Edited by colin, 23 February 2007 - 12:26 AM.

[ErinJ]

colin, on Feb 22 2007, 11:49 PM, said:

Yeah, I think you're getting into that whole "cultural center" tag that I like to bring up a lot. Atlanta is definitively the cultural center of Georgia and I doubt anyone would question that. However, is Phoenix the cultural center of Arizona?
I'd say no, only because, collectively, Tucson just seems to have more culture: better bars, better music scene, more museums, a very comparable university (notice the deliberate omission of "better" there), a better arts scene, and a generally less-transient nature.
I'm not saying that Tucson is the cultural center of the state, but it's just definitely not Phoenix.

Tucson clearly WAS the cultural center of arizona until the 80's, In fact Arizona Theater, Arizona Opera, and Ballet Arizona all started in Tucson.  It is harder to say if the center resides Tucson or Scottsdale/Phoenix now.  I have to disagree that ASU is comparable to UA, UA is CLEARLY the better of the two.

[MJLO]

As an outsider I'd agree too, UofA is definately more acedemically renown, where ASU is something akin to " Bob's College".  However, my particular disdain for the entire state of Arizona, won't keep me from commenting here.   I don't have Ben's grace with words, or Colins liberal, and refined views.  I like to shop at my national chains, eat at mcdonalds, and leave the shower running while I read a novel in the other room, while every light, and appliance runs simulteneously.  I hail from a second city, in a state full of old cities with old traditions and deep pockets.  So I know what it's like to be in a great town that gets no respect because it ever lies in the shadows of the bohemoth two hours away.  I would question if Tucson is the cultural center of Arizona, Arizona has very little in the way or culture, or the Arts.  I would say in the past Tucson had the edge, but as Phoenix keeps growing, and as people develope more roots here, you'll see that shift more and more,  I firmly believe that Phoenix is growing into itself as a city, and those amenities are really starting to shine thru.  LRT is just one example.

[traal]

Report suggests Gateway goals:

Quote

Also absent is public transportation at the airport for students at Arizona State University Polytechnic and Chandler-Gilbert Community College. Both campuses, the report states, are oriented to commuter students and would be well served by immediate extensions of Valley Metro bus service. Extension of the light-rail system should also be emphasized.

It depresses me that it's taking so long just to add a bus route to Williams Gateway Airport.

[colin]

Phoenix light-rail extension revised; will now have 3.2-mile first phase

This article doesn't mention which segment is being cut from the 2012 plan, but I would assume that it's the northern section.
What are these "onerous" federal guidelines and how have they "grown" to be so? I mean, were they not as onerous a year ago?

Don't like the Republic as much, but they have a more detailed article:
Light-rail plans in northwest Valley adjusted

[MJLO]

maybe they are realizing that noone goes to the metro center mall any more so it would be silly.  Metrocenter, is officially Phoenix's "other mall".  It was built in the 80's, and like anything else ten years or more old in this town, it's now in the " bad part of town".

[colin]

I thought that was Fiesta Mall. Or is that just "the dead mall"?

It's not the best area, but it does have density than other areas, right? I mean, you have a lot of working-class apartments in that area and those are the best places to put public transit. You can't just run it out to golf course subdivisions and skip the stops in the ghetto. That's not what mass transit is, man. Enough socialist ranting.

[traal]

I thought the VF Factory Outlet in East Mesa (the one that Hurricane Bay Club wants to move into) was the dead mall. Although even VF is not quite as dead as this one.

[MJLO]

fiesta mall is actually pretty busy,  it's not as nice as it was when it was built, but it's still has better stores than Mesa's nice mall, Superstition Springs center.

[MJLO]

What is the length of the first stretch of track and where will it run?

[MJLO]

The sherrifs office is investigating corruption with light rail  Geez, lots of corruption going on.  That's ok, Sherriff Joe  Likes the attention.

[traal]

A Light Rail Mini-Movie of Car 101 Initial Test Run,  3-29-07 [mpg].

It's kind of hard to believe this is Phoenix!

[colin]

So it should be rocketing through the city at that speed by mid-08?

Very cool. Thanks for posting.

[nuplanner]

The fiesta mall area has potential to redevelop to a nice urban area.  Light rail would have been nice, especially 20 years ago.  Now it cost so much and the valley is so huge and spread out it is going to take a long time to serve an auto dependant metro area.

I also would not consider ASU the bob college vs. UofA.  The kittycats better watch out b/c the devils are right behind and in position to pass as the better school in the next few years rankings wise.

[colin]

The little UA - ASU rivalry is kinda stupid. Both schools have their strengths and weaknesses.

I think light rail in that zone would encourage density though. It's certainly poised for it, or, at least, seems to be. Good example is Dallas, how DART encouraged major high-density developments near the semi-suburban stations, although there's a different dynamic there.

[convulso]

nuplanner, on Apr 17 2007, 04:21 PM, said:

I also would not consider ASU the bob college vs. UofA.  The kittycats better watch out b/c the devils are right behind and in position to pass as the better school in the next few years rankings wise.

i have zero loyalty to either institution and care nothing for cheerleading and bashing, but what is the basis for this? ASU is leveraging to become the largest university in the country, but that's not an academic goal and can serve to either promote or hinder academics. the universities' missions seem to be becoming more distinctly defined as time passes, and there is a role both can play in the state.

i have not been under the impression that ASU is attempting to supplant UA as the state's premiere research and liberal academic university. in fact, i have read recent stories that suggest the state is in the process of focusing all three of its higher learning branches in specifically-targeted directions so that their missions do not overlap or conflict with the others'.

ASU is trying to service a huge and diverse urban population with needs that involve training and addressing the area's service requirements as much as they do liberal learning. if ASU isn't attempting to be UA and UA isn't attempting to be ASU, why the warning? are there articles we should read?

Edited by convulso, 18 April 2007 - 01:39 AM.

[colin]

I think ASU is trying to at least improve its reputation as a research institution, although it's not like I've read any of their mission lit or anything like that.
Not that this has anything to do with this topic, but ASU is at a significant advantage simply from a geographical standpoint as it's in a much larger metropolitan area and has more available land. UA is practically built-out and would have to invest in an entirely separate campus (although there is UA South) to continue to grow.
But, yeah, I think you're right: neither are really trying to be the other. The sense of competition is a bit, if not entirely, unfounded.

Zoom goes the light rail.

Edited by colin, 17 April 2007 - 06:42 PM.