131 replies to this topic

[Andrea]

Lady Celeste, on Aug 4 2006, 12:40 AM, said:

Belks will do well at malls like Arbor Place and Stonecrest but I can't see it doing well at Phipps. I don't care if they sell Roll Royces at this Belk...when people say "where did you get that wonderful ensemble?" You reply "Belk." "Oh, Belk *uneasy giggle*...I see. So how are your children?"

Hours later she will be chatting you up talking about "the Rosenthals must have come on hard times. I never knew...they always look so dignified. (comment from other person) How do I know...she is buying her clothes from Belks."    

Wait, that makes it look like I would be the gossiper...and I never gossip.

Celeste, I've honestly never thought of Belk's as all that skanky.  I've many times purchased clothes for myself and my family there and they seemed about as nice as anywhere else.  However, I will have to admit that we are neither fashion plates nor have we ever been plugged in to the upper classes.

Of course, I grew up on the south side and we thought that Sunshine Plaza at Moreland and Custer Avenue was a big deal!  When Belvedere came along, it was "northside" luxury beyond our wildest dreams.

[kayman]

StevenRocks, on Aug 3 2006, 08:11 PM, said:

That's an incredibly snarky article.  The Kurt Barnard quote particurally irritated me.  Parisian was more like Lord & Taylor than Saks.  If Parisian was more like Saks, this sale wouldn't have happened because Saks, Incorporated would be essentially cutting off its "right arm."

Steven, I've been to a lot of Parisian and Belk stores, and the statement has a lot of truth behind it.  Outside of the Carolinas Belk is seen as a sub-par moderate department store.  They will have do a South Park treatment of the Phipps, Summit, and CoolSprings stores if they want to keep the current Parisian customer base in the long run.  People are talking and the general consensus is they will respond with pockets at other stores like Dillard's, Saks, Neiman-Marcus, and Nordstrom.  I will be one of those people too.

Edited by Leonard23, 05 August 2006 - 03:04 PM.

[kayman]

Lady Celeste, on Aug 3 2006, 11:40 PM, said:

How big is the Parisians space at Phipps Plaza?

I noticed that Dallas is getting a Barneys. Dallas and Atlanta retail are more inline with each other as they are both maturre markets. There is a Barneys was a Barneys in East Beverly Hills that was 115,000 sqayre feet. Why can't the Parisians spot go to Barneys? Surely Sam Massell won't allow this to occur to Phipps. He is afterall the mayor of Buckhead. I know he can pull some strings here or there.

If the Atlanta fashionista crowd turned their noses to Parisians and the old "lower our standards" Lord & Taylor at Phipps then what makes Belk think it will woo them over. People did not not go to Parisians at Phipps because it stocked bad merchandise. This Parisians was liken to the Belks at SouthPark. They didn't go because it was Parisians at the wrong mall.

The Atlanta market is a hard market. Dillards had to scale back it's Atlanta plans because the metro is already inundated with a plethora of shopping options. Belks will do well at malls like Arbor Place and Stonecrest but I can't see it doing well at Phipps. I don't care if they sell Roll Royces at this Belk...when people say "where did you get that wonderful ensemble?" You reply "Belk." "Oh, Belk *uneasy giggle*...I see. So how are your children?"

Hours later she will be chatting you up talking about "the Rosenthals must have come on hard times. I never knew...they always look so dignified. (comment from other person) How do I know...she is buying her clothes from Belks."    

Wait, that makes it look like I would be the gossiper...and I never gossip.

I must agree people are starting to say the same thing around Birmingham as well about Belk.  Belk's only stores in the area are in the exburbs until the McRae's-Proffitts acquistion.  Those acquistion still didn't change people's perception of the stores, most are like "I only go there if I want bargain basement clothes for my kids".  The word is around town now is with the people of upper incomes is that they will be shopping elsewhere from now on like Saks or other cities.

Edited by Leonard23, 06 August 2006 - 07:07 PM.

[StevenRocks]

Leonard23, on Aug 5 2006, 05:03 PM, said:

Steven, I've been to a lot of Parisian and Belk stores, and the statement has a lot of truth behind it.  Outside of the Carolinas Belk is seen as a sub-par moderate department store.  They will have do a South Park treatment of the Phipps, Summit, and CoolSprings stores if they want to keep the current Parisian customer base in the long run.  People are talking and the general consensus is they will respond with pockets at other stores like Dillard's, Saks, Neiman-Marcus, and Nordstrom.  I will be one of those people too.

I'm sure that the Parisian stores in Pensacola, Florida and Tupelo, Mississippi really give that Saks feeling.  I can feel the Fifth Avenue luxury from here, it's so strong

Belk is out to change the negative perceptions of its stores.  But it can't stop ignorant people who would turn up their noses at Belk to shop at Dillard's.  Six-of-one, half-a-dozen of another, I say.

Edited by StevenRocks, 06 August 2006 - 12:27 AM.

[kayman]

StevenRocks, on Aug 6 2006, 01:26 AM, said:

I'm sure that the Parisian stores in Pensacola, Florida and Tupelo, Mississippi really give that Saks feeling.  I can feel the Fifth Avenue luxury from here, it's so strong

Belk is out to change the negative perceptions of its stores.  But it can't stop ignorant people who would turn up their noses at Belk to shop at Dillard's.  Six-of-one, half-a-dozen of another, I say.

Myself, my family members have had one too many bad experiences with Belk, I would rather take my chances at JCPenney, Sears, or TJ Maxx before Belk again.  Every chain including Bloomingdales and Neimans have Class C stores, and Tupelo, Pensacola, Tuscaloosa, and Gadsden (including former locations like Western Hills and Eastwood) was Parisian's.  But there is a huge difference between a Class C Parisian and a Class C Belk.  We all know this.

[NCMike1981]

It's so strange to me, someone who grew up in Belks core market, to hear so many people hating the fact that the chain is moving further into their market. It sounds like there is a huge difference between stores in their core markets when compared to stores elsewhere.

Dillards really isn't all that big in NC. In the Triangle area we have just 3 Dillards compared to 9 Belks. I know that this sounds like oversaturation on Belks part but people around here tend to view the chain differently then, say people in GA or TN...

Here are pics of the 3 Triangle area Dillards stores courtesy of their website...







Click on the pics to see where they are located if you are bored...

Edited by NCMike1981, 07 August 2006 - 11:29 AM.

[StevenRocks]

Leonard23, on Aug 6 2006, 09:11 PM, said:

Myself, my family members have had one too many bad experiences with Belk, I would rather take my chances at JCPenney, Sears, or TJ Maxx before Belk again.  Every chain including Bloomingdales and Neimans have Class C stores, and Tupelo, Pensacola, Tuscaloosa, and Gadsden (including former locations like Western Hills and Eastwood) was Parisian's.  But there is a huge difference between a Class C Parisian and a Class C Belk.  We all know this.

What on earth could Belk have done to you and your family that was so unforgivable?  I can't make you like a store that you don't want to, but I'm a little baffled by this.

I've said this at least a couple of times already, but Belk isn't out to ruin the former Parisian stores.  If anything, they'll enhance them if they can.  The biggest difference will be the name.

[mallguy]

Belk certainly isn't out to ruin the Parisian stores but Belk is Belk and runs Belk stores- I'd think that Belk buyers and execs would, due to years of working for Belk, be likely to make the Parisian stores into Belk ones, since Belk employees naturally think that Belk merchandising, presentation, etc. are what works.  Thus Saddlebred clothes and Levi's will be added to former Parisian stores, not out of spite or anything, but because Belk people think that's what will work, as they've worked well for Belk for years.  Sure, hopefully Belk buyers, etc. will keep the Joseph Abboud ties and the Tailor Byrd shirts, but the stores will likely have some low-brow clothes added in as well (just as Belk SouthPark has some low-end clothes), along with maybe some new high-end brands as well.

Ugh.  Change isn't always good.

Edited by mallguy, 07 August 2006 - 05:22 PM.

[shrek05]

Quote

The biggest difference will be the name.

Heh. Name does a lot. Even if Belks at Phipps carries the same brand as Norstrom, a poor reputation associated with the name Belk will go far. People would rather be seen in Nordstrom purchasing that item than at "Belk." Of course, I've never seen how bad one of these "horrendous" Belks are, but in that Tennessean article, it looks pretty bad. IF that is Atlanta's preconceived notion of that department store...they will struggle regardless of what they sell when tryign to target the higher end shoppers.

Where you buy it is quite important , dont overestimate the superficial. Just cuz its the same brands doesn't mean anything.

[Andrea]

mallguy, on Aug 7 2006, 07:20 PM, said:

Belk certainly isn't out to ruin the Parisian stores but Belk is Belk and runs Belk stores- I'd think that Belk buyers and execs would, due to years of working for Belk, be likely to make the Parisian stores into Belk ones, since Belk employees naturally think that Belk merchandising, presentation, etc. are what works.  Thus Saddlebred clothes and Levi's will be added to former Parisian stores, not out of spite or anything, but because Belk people think that's what will work, as they've worked well for Belk for years.  Sure, hopefully Belk buyers, etc. will keep the Joseph Abboud ties and the Tailor Byrd shirts, but the stores will likely have some low-brow clothes added in as well (just as Belk SouthPark has some low-end clothes), along with maybe some new high-end brands as well.

Ugh.  Change isn't always good.

I think it's important to to keep in mind the community that a store serves.  We're talking about Phipps Plaza here, not Beverly Hills.  Yes, Buckhead has its zillionaires, but it's also home to tons of regular families who decided to stay put and make their home in the city, rather than run for the suburbs.  Many of us are not exactly made out of money, and we simply want to buy good quality, serviceable clothes for ourselves and our families.  I look forward to having a nice Belk's here.  I've shopped at Belk's since I was a little kid and I don't see the problem.

[shrek05]

^Heh, exactly. Phipps is nice, but its still no South Coast. Every mall has its mix of regularly-priced things, Phipps will be no different.

[StevenRocks]

mallguy, on Aug 7 2006, 07:20 PM, said:

Belk certainly isn't out to ruin the Parisian stores but Belk is Belk and runs Belk stores- I'd think that Belk buyers and execs would, due to years of working for Belk, be likely to make the Parisian stores into Belk ones, since Belk employees naturally think that Belk merchandising, presentation, etc. are what works.  Thus Saddlebred clothes and Levi's will be added to former Parisian stores, not out of spite or anything, but because Belk people think that's what will work, as they've worked well for Belk for years.  Sure, hopefully Belk buyers, etc. will keep the Joseph Abboud ties and the Tailor Byrd shirts, but the stores will likely have some low-brow clothes added in as well (just as Belk SouthPark has some low-end clothes), along with maybe some new high-end brands as well.

The low-end brands will only be added to stores Belk merchandisers think there's a market for them.  Parisian did the same thing.  Parisian in Tupelo wasn't merchandised the same as Parisian at Phipps because they understood that the cheap stuff wouldn't fly in midtown Atlanta and the edgy stuff wouldn't work in rural Mississippi.  That's Retail 101, put the merchandise people want into the stores.

Belk SouthPark has some inexpensive clothes becaue (1) they sell and (2) it's a rather large store.  There is room enough for diversity in a store that large.  Parisian stores are typically about 1/3 the size of Belk SouthPark, so they'll be highly edited to reflect the tastes of their respective markets.

shrek05, on Aug 7 2006, 07:30 PM, said:

Heh. Name does a lot. Even if Belks at Phipps carries the same brand as Norstrom, a poor reputation associated with the name Belk will go far. People would rather be seen in Nordstrom purchasing that item than at "Belk." Of course, I've never seen how bad one of these "horrendous" Belks are, but in that Tennessean article, it looks pretty bad. IF that is Atlanta's preconceived notion of that department store...they will struggle regardless of what they sell when tryign to target the higher end shoppers.

Where you buy it is quite important , dont overestimate the superficial. Just cuz its the same brands doesn't mean anything.

Names and reputations can be built to greatness from nothing.  When Pfiffer's and Blass in Little Rock merged to become Dillard's, nobody thought it could become a nationwide chain, but it did.  When Sam Walton opened a small discount store in the middle of nowhere, nobody thought it could turn into the world's largest retailer, but it did.  When the Nordstroms started a shoe store in downtown Seattle, nobody imagined it would become America's most popular specialty department store, but it did.

[shrek05]

Heh, ^thats different though. Obviously no one thinks their store will become a huge success but through proper management, advertising it can. Better examples would be, can Wal-Mart shed its image as a poor wage, cheap, thrift shop into a luxury destination? Can McDonald's turn itself into a classy burger joint that rivals In n Out? I mean, perhaps through much hard work and many years, but from the image Belk seems to have and I mean Ive seen some but not nearly as bad as the ones everyone is describing, turning it around will be very difficult. Maybe not impossible, but very difficult.

Edited by shrek05, 07 August 2006 - 11:47 PM.

[StevenRocks]

shrek05, on Aug 8 2006, 01:46 AM, said:

Heh, ^thats different though. Obviously no one thinks their store will become a huge success but through proper management, advertising it can. Better examples would be, can Wal-Mart shed its image as a poor wage, cheap, thrift shop into a luxury destination? Can McDonald's turn itself into a classy burger joint that rivals In n Out? I mean, perhaps through much hard work and many years, but from the image Belk seems to have and I mean Ive seen some but not nearly as bad as the ones everyone is describing, turning it around will be very difficult. Maybe not impossible, but very difficult.

In n Out is classy?

Image makeovers have worked in retail before, and I don't see how Belk's image problems can't be overcome with the right marketing.

[shrek05]

In context, yes In N Out is classy. Huge cult following, clean interiors, merchandise (clothes) sells very well. Compared to McDonald's, In N Out is though to be on a way different level. Fresh veggies, meat, burgers grilled on the spot, french fries made when ordered...way different.

I don't think Belk's image problems can't be overcome. I just know it will be very hard for them and probably a small chance of success. Just curious, what are some major image makeovers in retail that come to mind? Im drawing a blank. Only one I can think of is Burberry overextended its market and was thought to be "non-exclusive" for awhile and went nearly bankrupt until it was saved in the mid 90s. But it had always been a rather luxury brand and it just made its products more exclusive.

I guess the best example is probably Lacoste but Lacoste never had a poor image prior to its remarketing in mid 90s and consequent surge in popularity and luxury status at the turn of the century.

Edited by shrek05, 08 August 2006 - 05:43 PM.

[StevenRocks]

shrek05, on Aug 8 2006, 07:41 PM, said:

Just curious, what are some major image makeovers in retail that come to mind? Im drawing a blank

I can think of several:

JCPenney:  Penney's was basically a small-town dry goods store before the '60s, when it embarked on a major makeover to become a lot like Sears and Montgomery Ward and opened large stores in malls all over America.  By the '80s, that strategy had gotten old and malls got more sophisticated, so they evolved again to become a moderate department store, which is where they've been for the last 20 years or so.

Target:  Prior to the '90s, Target was a run of the mill regional discounter, although still nicer than most.  They undertook a major image overhaul and expansion plan that turned it into the go-to discount store for anybody that wanted some style with their bargains.

Bloomingdale's:  Bloomingdale's was a nondescript regional department store chain in the '50s, even selling toilet paper at one point.  Placed into more creative hands in the '60s, the store moved progressively upscale with fancier merchandise and marketing culminating in cultural ubiqiuty in the late '70s and '80s.

Gap:  No more than a place to buy Levi's and t-shirts at first, Gap created brand identy by going private-label and marketing the hell out of themselves in the '90s.  Sister company Banana Republic changed from a safari-themed mall store to spohisticated workwear purveyer over a ten-year span.

I have more if you want them

[mallguy]

Those are very good points but I think that Belk's challenge is far greater.  Those other stores went from one price point to a price point not too far away.  For example, given Bloomingdale's location at 59th & Lex, next to the very expensive parts of the Upper East Side and in the wealthiest ZIP code in the US, I'd think it was always a pretty nice store, even if it has gotten nicer (and now it sells carpet cleaning still, so there's always the odd item it sells).

But Belk is going from traditionally a low-end store to being apparently a very expensive store at some of the South's nicest malls, while maintaining Class C stores in small towns.  Going from low-end to high-end is one challenge, and keeping low-end stores at the same time is another challenge; customers get confused.

I think Belk will be around for a long time to come, but every retailer makes mistakes, and buying Parisian is one of them.

[gsupstate]

shrek05, on Aug 8 2006, 05:41 PM, said:

In context, yes In N Out is classy. Huge cult following, clean interiors, merchandise (clothes) sells very well. Compared to McDonald's, In N Out is though to be on a way different level. Fresh veggies, meat, burgers grilled on the spot, french fries made when ordered...way different.

In N Out went through the roof of hipster status after Hilary Swank won the Oscar for Million Dollar Baby and her and Chad decided to go eat at In N Out after the Oscars and skip the parties.  Photos of her munching on that burger were plastered everywhere.  A couple of weeks after that, the big trend of wearing an In N Out T-Shirt underneath a black Prada suit blasted the scene.  In N Out already had its cult following for years, but this PR sent them into orbit.....every developer in the nation wanted them to be in a development....they were smart and said no and stayed true to their West Coast roots.  Maybe something similar could happen to Belk.  

[shrek05]

Yea, those are good stories but all companies start at small and most start as a small local store (biggest story probably Wal-Mart.) But thats a different kind of "brand reimaging" to this. I would call those stories more like, good marketing leads to national success but not really changing its image. Belk, as said by mallguy, is going from generally low, inexpensive stores with a rather poor reputation in Georgia, to stealing shoppers from Nordstrom and Neimans, both of which have a prestigious rep.

^^Heh, yea In N Out has been in several media publications. It has always had a huge cult following in California and when the first one opened in Arizona back in 2000, there was a 4 hour wait for a hamburger and the dricve thru wrapped for nearly a mile around the parking lot.

[StevenRocks]

mallguy, on Aug 9 2006, 08:59 AM, said:

Those are very good points but I think that Belk's challenge is far greater.  Those other stores went from one price point to a price point not too far away.  For example, given Bloomingdale's location at 59th & Lex, next to the very expensive parts of the Upper East Side and in the wealthiest ZIP code in the US, I'd think it was always a pretty nice store, even if it has gotten nicer (and now it sells carpet cleaning still, so there's always the odd item it sells).

But Belk is going from traditionally a low-end store to being apparently a very expensive store at some of the South's nicest malls, while maintaining Class C stores in small towns.  Going from low-end to high-end is one challenge, and keeping low-end stores at the same time is another challenge; customers get confused.

I think Belk will be around for a long time to come, but every retailer makes mistakes, and buying Parisian is one of them.

Joseph and Lyman Bloomingdale moved their New York store to 59th and Lexington to tap into the upscale market, but the store was considered a second-tier retailer where local domestic workers bought their uniforms as late as the '50s.  It was more famous for its bargain basement than anything.

Bloomingdale's changed drastically because it realized customers would respond better to a more upscale format, and Belk is currently in the throes of this as well, which is basically an update on their 1970s evolution from small town dry-goods store to modern department store.

If Bloomingdale's isn't enough proof, consider Barneys New York, which went from cut-rate suits to a tony specialty department store in about a 20 year span.

Long story short:  it can be done.

Further, in contrast to your shunning of diversity, Macy's is in the process of opening nationwide in a variety of locations that vary widely in size and income level, while pushing a relatively upscale merchandise mix.  Dillard's operates in a similar manner, as does Bon-Ton.  Why not Belk?