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[Weltenbummler]

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OK, Folks!

we have a Polish City Thread, now comes the German City Thread,
because Germany has a lot more to offer
than Poland!

Alone Germany has 26 % strenght of all Europe economy wise and has the largest Population in the
European Union with ca. 82.44 Millions of people on a landsize, which equals about the size of Texas,
and has about 10 times more people on
1 sqaremile than the US of A.

Only France is landwise larger, but has only about 60 Millions people.

All the Financial Power of all Europe is in Frankfurt/Main (Frankfurt on the river Main).

in Stuttgart is the Mercedes factory, who know ownes "Chrysler" and "Freightliner" (Trucks/18 wheeler),
.....
and in 1925 at Mercedes was a Engineer with the Name Ferdinand Porsche who invented the Volkswagen,
and the largest factory under one roof worldwide was built 1938 in Wolfsburg/Niedersachsen, where the famous VW Beetle was built ,who outnumberd the FORD "T" Modell with more than 17 Millions built in
1972. Now Volkswagen produces in Massproduction since 1998 a little 3 cylinder Volkswagen, who made
78 MPG Fuleeconomy (vehicle not available in the USA), and built a prototype in 2002 ( 2 seater )
who make about 270 MPG Fueleconomy (Not available on the market,...to expensive to built)

I will say "Auf wiedersehen"!

[Mobuchu]

Most known world around has got to be Berlin.  Although Frankfurt and Munich are certainly making a name for themselves.

[monsoon]

I remember the '72 Olympics in Munich which happened when I was a kid so that is probably my first memory of a German city.  And having grown up during the Cold War, I remember a lot about Bonn's role during this period.   I've always been a fan of Mercedes vehicles so I know about Stuggart.   However I would say that Berlin simply has to be the most famous for events that took place there during the 20th century.  

On another note, I am not sure that what happened to Dresden, as tragic as it was, would have been considered a war crime given the definition of a war crime at the time.  Maybe it was in the sense that starting a war is a criminal act in many people's minds.   Of course history is always written by the victors and had the Nazis prevailed, there is no doubt the bombing of Dresden would have been classified as such.

[moonshield]

Berlin is what I think of. Frankfurt and Munich would be next.

[krazeeboi]

Berlin for me. I think Frankfurt would be next though.

[Weltenbummler]

[quote name='Mobuchu' date='Aug 28 2006, 01:20 PM' post='540326']
Most known world around has got to be Berlin.  Although Frankfurt and Munich are certainly making a name for themselves.
[/quote]

what is about Hamburg?
There you find one of the most friendliest people in Germany!

Frankfurt is knwon for the tallest Buildings in All Europe, and München....of course,
almost every american know Baveria and Munich with the "Oktoberfest"

Berlin....  I do like the city with "Weltstadt-Flair" ( Worldclass Image) and their architektur,
but the people are very rude to German's who are not living in Berlin, and who don't have that Berliner Accent with "Icke, ditte, datte, watte ect."

[quote name='monsoon' date='Aug 28 2006, 01:47 PM' post='540356']
I remember the '72 Olympics in Munich which happened when I was a kid so that is probably my first memory of a German city. [/quote]

I do remember that too

[quote] And having grown up during the Cold War, I remember a lot about Bonn's role during this period.  [/quote]

ja, it was the "Bundeshauptstadt" of West Berlin

[quote] I've always been a fan of Mercedes vehicles so I know about Stuggart. [/quote]

yep.... one of the best cars in the world, even I like Volkswagen much more.

[quote]  However I would say that Berlin simply has to be the most famous for events that took place there during the 20th century.   [/quote]

what kinds of sooooo famous events?  well.... die "Mauer" (the wall)....ja, and Kennedy's visit to Berlin.

[quote]
On another note, I am not sure that what happened to Dresden, as tragic as it was, would have been considered a war crime given the definition of a war crime at the time. [/quote]

well.... at that time in February of 1945 Germany was militarywise pretty much "done":
The americans at the Rhein River, the Russians almost at the Oder River and there was no fuel, which was the biggest problem.
All the remaining troops and war equippment was at the "Front" in defensive and at this time hopeless
fighting.

Specially England had at that time one of the finest secret services and they had known everyting about Germany, and where war equippment is, war factories, refineries and Troops and "Kasernen".

The English.... certainly not dumb and very very good informed with very good intelligence had known at that time, that there was no military targets in Dresden, no war factories.... nothing!
Exept, that the wole entire town was filled with refugees from the East who had fleed from the russians.

and because their where no factories and no militär and nothing, so many hundredt-housands felt very safe in Dresden, because a bombing would do no "good" in military benefits efforts.

"Sir" Winston Churchill and his Bomber-General Harris had known that also, and they also had known, that the city was filled up with refugees, children, woman and old people.

They delivertly ordered that raid, knowing of the situation.... if this is not a warcrime against humanity, than I'am just too stupid to understand the whole meaning of a war crime, and such war crimes may never exists at all.

There is no exact figures of the murdered people, but estimates figure about 250000 up to 300000 people dead doing that raid, which had involved 10000 British bombers in February 1945.

In the "Nuremberg" War criminal trail's 1945/46 the Bombing of London in 1940 was mentioned, but the bombing of Dresden in 1945 not..... "Sieger schreiben Geschichte".... The victors writing history.

The English always like to address, that London was bombed in the summer of 1940, which is true, but the british RAF bombed Berlin first, which was in the spring of 1940 and Germany than answered with the Bombing of London in the summer of 1940, which was more intense and longerlasting.

But the British just like to "overlooked" that, as they like to overlook the fact, that England and France decleared war on Germany on Sept.03.1939, and Germany never wanted war with England nor france at that time 1939/1940

Than, the british like to address, that Germany overrun Poland in september 1939 and they had sort of a Guarantee for Poland to protect them and had to declear war on germany for the attac on Poland.
....but,...the russians came from the east at the same time and marched into Poland, but England never decleared war on Russia as well, and they had done the same, what Germany did:
....one came from the west, the other from the east.....and crushed Poland into defeat.

Matterfact, I don't blame the British people for that, what was happend, because the british common people are fine and educated people, and it was their leadership and political government, what did all of those decisons, such as "Sir" Winston Churchilll, who really hated all Germans and he didn't fought Hitler, he fought Germany, because he hated all Germans, and this was going back way back into the 1900, when he himself fought the "Buren War" in South africa..... it's all proven history and readable in american hsitory books.

It is also prooven and written in history books, that Churchill wants to exterminate all germans and he'd really enjoyed , when a bombing raid was successful with thousands of death people.

Curchill was a war criminal himhelf for what he did in ordering such massmurder, but he wasn't prosecuted, because History is written by the victors and England was part of the victorious allies.

The american bombing raid was only against Military targets such as refineries and factories, and american Bombers tried to avoid hitting civilian targets.

The british bombing raids where more ( and almost all)
targeting civilian target such residential areas
[quote]

Maybe it was in the sense that starting a war is a criminal act in many people's minds.[/quote]

I do agree with that, and that crime of starting wars is as old as the huming beings himself

[quote]

   Of course history is always written by the victors and had the Nazis prevailed, there is no doubt the bombing of Dresden would have been classified as such.
[/quote]

and other war crimes would not be classified as war crimes either.


[quote name='moonshield' date='Aug 29 2006, 08:44 PM' post='541985']
Berlin is what I think of. Frankfurt and Munich would be next.
[/quote]

ja, berlin

[quote name='krazeeboi' date='Aug 30 2006, 02:09 AM' post='542180']
Berlin for me. I think Frankfurt would be next though.
[/quote]

Berlin again, ...but its the capitol though!

I'll guess the same goes for every capitol, ....I'll see that in the Poland Thread, where Warschau is mentioned the most.

Grüsse...

[monsoon]

I don't doubt the bombing of Dresden by the British had an element of revenge in it for what the Nazis where doing to London with the terror weapons, the V1 and V2 rockets.  The V2 was especially terrorizing since the technology at the time could not even detect it to give people time to get to shelters.    Situations such as that, lead to irrational decisions and the reduction of Dresden to rubble was the price paid for those very bad decisions by Hitler.  

Berlin is most famous in the 20th century because it was the epicenter of the Cold War and where it was believed WWIII would start if the Soviets and the West went to war with each other.   The rise and fall of the Berlin wall is a fascinating story of 20th century post war politics and it will be studied for centuries to come.

[Mobuchu]

Weltenbummler, on Aug 30 2006, 05:34 AM, said:

what is about Hamburg?
There you find one of the most friendliest people in Germany!

Frankfurt is knwon for the tallest Buildings in All Europe, and München....of course,
almost every american know Baveria and Munich with the "Oktoberfest"

Berlin....  I do like the city with "Weltstadt-Flair" ( Worldclass Image) and their architektur,
but the people are very rude to German's who are not living in Berlin, and who don't have that Berliner Accent with "Icke, ditte, datte, watte ect."
I do remember that too
ja, it was the "Bundeshauptstadt" of West Berlin
yep.... one of the best cars in the world, even I like Volkswagen much more.
what kinds of sooooo famous events?  well.... die "Mauer" (the wall)....ja, and Kennedy's visit to Berlin.

The poll was about the most famous city in Germany, not the one with the nicest people.  Besides, that is all a matter of opinion, my family in Germany did not feel this way about Berlin.  But I can see where this is possible.  Some people in the US who are from a small town/country would think the same things about NYC.

I really dont want to get into the debate about Dresden, but alot of peope are misinformed on this subject.  My relatives in Germany think that the only Americans bombed this city and that they targeted the Frauenkirch specifically.  This of course is not true, because both British and American bombers attacked this city.  It is a very touchy subject for sure and doesn't really belong in this thread.

[Weltenbummler]

[quote name='monsoon' post='542257' date='Aug 30 2006, 06:51 AM']
I don't doubt the bombing of Dresden by the British had an element of revenge in it for what the Nazis where doing to London with the terror weapons, the V1 and V2 rockets. [/quote]

May be, but if so, they even had that revenge before the V1 and V2 which only came to "einsatz" after Sommer 1944.

In 1943 oder early 1944 they bombed residential Areas in Hamburg to rubble.

[quote] The V2 was especially terrorizing since the technology at the time could not even detect it to give people time to get to shelters. [/quote]

The "Buzz Bomb" V1 was not so bad, but the V2 was faster than the sound and so fast, that People even heard them comming.
They heard the explosion, and 1 or 2 seconds later the bomb comming (The whistle sound)

[quote]   Situations such as that, lead to irrational decisions and the reduction of Dresden to rubble[/quote]

like I said, those decissions in bombing german into rubble was made way before the V1 and V2
the so called "Vergeltungswaffe"

[quote] was the price paid for those very bad decisions by Hitler.   [/quote]

No doubts... Hitler made a lot of bad decisions, and one of those bad decisions was to use the V2 mostly against London, unstead against mililtary targets...

Hitler and Churchill made the same error in thinking, bombing of civilians will falter and weaken their will to fight and continue the war....
The opposite was the case.... in England as well as in Germany

[quote]
Berlin is most famous in the 20th century because it was the epicenter of the Cold War and where it was believed WWIII would start if the Soviets and the West went to war with each other.   The rise and fall of the Berlin wall is a fascinating story of 20th century post war politics and it will be studied for centuries to come.
[/quote]

which I have seen in 1989 live!
I was many many times in the former "DDR"
and sold a lot of cars there later on.


[quote name='Mobuchu' post='542962' date='Aug 30 2006, 03:10 PM']
The poll was about the most famous city in Germany, not the one with the nicest people. [/quote]

Well, sometimes a city is famous for their nice people.... like Wien (Vienna).

[quote] Besides, that is all a matter of opinion, my family in Germany did not feel this way about Berlin. [/quote]

I also was in Berlin many many times, and I do speak "Hochdeutsch" which is a pure German language without any accent.
and the Berliners do have their accent, and when you're dont speak their "Berlinerisch", they consider you just a "Provinzler" and they just think, that Berlin is the best in germany, and everthing else is
2.class

Of course, they are very nice to tourists who dont speak german.

next time, I go to Berlin, I will only speak  english, because I do like nice people.


[quote] But I can see where this is possible.  Some people in the US who are from a small town/country would think the same things about NYC.[/quote]

NYC ...same ball game, just different languages:

I had ask People in Berlin for directions, and they even roll down their windows, and the same was happend in New York City

but, when I was the first time in NYC and just spoke a couple words of english, they were actually pretty nice!

[quote]
I really dont want to get into the debate about Dresden, but alot of peope are misinformed on this subject.  My relatives in Germany think that the only Americans bombed this city and that they targeted the Frauenkirch specifically.  This of course is not true, because both British and American bombers attacked this city.  It is a very touchy subject for sure and doesn't really belong in this thread.
[/quote]

well, why should not history belongs in that tread?
The bombing is fact and its part of history.

give me a link showing, that there was also american bombers involved in that bombing, please!

Gruss

Edited by Weltenbummler, 31 August 2006 - 02:50 AM.

[monsoon]

Weltenbummler, on Aug 31 2006, 04:21 AM, said:

give me a link showing, that there was also american bombers involved in that bombing, please!

Gruss

This link is straight from the United States Airforce history website.  It details the USAF involvement with the fire bombing of Dresden in 1945.  If you note, all aerial bombardment by the allies had to be approved by US General Eisenhower.   Offically it is contended that 25,000 died in the bombings but subsequent communist propaganda raised this number to 250,000.

[Mobuchu]

Yes, most reports place the # between 25k -35k.  With Dresdens own historian as well as other German reports puting the number in this range.

[cinco]

Weltenbummler, on Aug 30 2006, 05:34 AM, said:

what is about Hamburg?
There you find one of the most friendliest people in Germany!

i laughed when i read this. not b/c i don't believe you... but, b/c the only thing i know about hamburg is from documentary film footage of the BEATLES playing there in the early 60's. there were tons of fights in the streets and beer bottles flying and chairs being thrown onstage.... funny. anyway my family lineage is from northern germany so, i would like to go there one day.


i voted for frankfurt... that cities looking into the future.

[Weltenbummler]

@ monsoon:
Our teacher in Germany told us, that the Bombing raid was carried out by english bombers,
and the death toll was about 250.000 people.
Anyhow, the responsible parties (Generals) cannot be proud of that bombing, doesn't matter,
who done it.
Even if there is "only" 25.000 people, that number alone is very very high.
americas worst massmurder has about 50 people on his concience.
how many have those responsible generals?
Here a german website mention 135.000 death people :
http://www.winterson.../dresden-d.html

Quote

Teil 1
Vorspiel zum Holocaust
Nach nahezu drei Jahren
unablässigen allierten Luftkrieges gegen Deutschlands zivile Bevoelkerung nahmen am
30.März 1942 die Pläne für eine Zerstoerung der offenen Stadt Dresdens Gestalt an, die
zur Einäscherung von mindestens 135.000 Menschen führten. Doch
die Saat eines solchen Unmenschlichen Hasses war in der Nr.10 der Downing Street............

Here is the article in English language: http://www.winterson.../dresden-e.html
and the plans of the destruction of Dresden was drawn up on March-30-1942 ( 3 years earlier)
and 2 years before the V1  and the V2.

@ Mobuchu:
yep,...like that above mention website speaking of about 135.000 death people.
and that website here: http://www.bombenkri...den_aktuell.htm
is mention about 253.000 victims:

Quote

Matthes, der damals die Verlustzahlen zusammenzustellen hatte. Danach waren 35.000 Leichen „voll identifiziert“, 50.000 „teilidentifiziert an Hand von Eheringen usw.“. Außerdem meinte er, es habe „168.000 Opfer“ gegeben, „an denen es nichts mehr zu identifizieren gab“.

35.000 were fully identifiziert,
50.000 partly indentifiziert
168.000 could not be indentifiziert, because the burning was so severe like seen on that picture:

Source:
above picture is a real picture of one of the victims in Dresden February 1945
http://www.bombenkrieg.net/dresden2.htm#Hitzeeinwirkung

The least amount of dead people is
.....for sure 35.000
and the highest is mention about 300.000
matterfact,///....
the real # is somehow in between

@ cinco:
I was in Hamburg, and liked very much so!
The people were awesome.
If you go to Hamburg, eat the famous "Hamburger Labskaus", though....delicious!
Yep...Frankfurt/Main is looking brightly in the future: ....all the european money is handled in Frankfurt and their "Zentralbank".....Frankfurt is the financial capitol of all europe!

Gruss

Edited by Weltenbummler, 31 August 2006 - 10:41 PM.

[FromCityToRural]

I say Muenchen (Munich). Though, this may be sort of biased...when we visit family in Austria, we always fly into Muenchen, and because I've flown in there, I discuss it with people every now and then...and they always know of the city.

Aber ich wuerde wetten das trotzdem Berlin der meist weltberuehmster Stadt in Deutschland ist...

[gsupstate]

Berlin would be the most famous, however, I personally always think of Munich.  I love the "village" feel of this city.

[jdkacz]

I voted Berlin as the most known around the world. I would believe that Frankfurt, Munich, and Nuremburg (sp).

[marapets]

munich its all  about the beer festival baby!

[Snowguy716]

I voted for Munich because when people think of Germany two thoughts come to mind:  The Berlin wall and men dressed in lederhosen with green hats and women dressed in Dirndlkleider with two armfulls of large beer steins.

But I would say while Berlin might be best known for its divided past, Munich is best known for something positive:  Oktoberfest.

I noticed, however, that Austrians tended to be more lighthearted and friendly than Germans.  The people that lived in my student home (Studentenheim) from Germany were always very serious and didn't appreciate sarcasm one bit.  It didn't take long for me to learn that Austrians refer to these Germans (pretty much all non-Bavarians) as Piefkes (a slang term referring to Prussians, who have the stereotype of being very serious and punctual).

Austrians, while conservative, also seem to have a more "live and let live" outlook on life.  I think only in Austria could you find a 70 year old woman wearing a Dirndl dress, knocking back shots, drinking beer, and enjoying a Backhendl (baked chicken legs).

Edited by Snowguy716, 04 January 2007 - 11:36 AM.

[Rural King]

Berlin is probably what I think of first.

Followed by:

Munich
Hamburg
Frankfurt A.M.
Dresden

[ZachariahDaMan]

Definately Berlin, maybe followed by Munish and Frankfurt