13 replies to this topic

[MJLO]

When I hear of a development being proposed and it has significant height I do this   .  However it seems in the valley when they hear that word they do this   .  Scottsdale, Tempe, Mesa, even to some extent Phoenix, residents go nuts when a proposal comes in and it wants more than eight levels.   Tempe's leadership, has put a moretoreum on height.  Stating among reasons that it's downtown would be TO exclusive if there were buildings over a certain hieght?  Donald Trump gave us the finger because of the treatment he got from Scottsdale, to the Biltmore, to downtown Phoenix.  I understand very much the need for solid longterm civic planning.  But does anyone else think that those who are motivated here in the Valley, and even Tucson, are way way to rigid when it comes to developers that want to build up and not out?   But isn't that part of the responsibility, planning for density.  Aren't the most successful cities even today the ones that are Dense and walkable.  For areas that are so stringent on responsible planning, it almost feels like they are arguing and exerting control just because they can.  

I can live in a state with Skylines that are mediocre at best.  But this state is exploding with growth, and It almost feels like developers are afraid to come here with solid proposals because of the high amount of scrutiny they will be put thru.  I have been accused before of being overly in favor of taller structures.  That there is more to a city than just tall buildings, I agree.  But it seems that in Maricopa county there is an over whelming urge to keep the landscape low and sprawling.  

I say, tall buildings augment, not detract from any view.

[ErinJ]

MJLO, on Aug 30 2006, 12:35 PM, said:

When I hear of a development being proposed and it has significant height I do this   .  However it seems in the valley when they hear that word they do this   .  Scottsdale, Tempe, Mesa, even to some extent Phoenix, residents go nuts when a proposal comes in and it wants more than eight levels.   Tempe's leadership, has put a moretoreum on height.  Stating among reasons that it's downtown would be TO exclusive if there were buildings over a certain hieght?  Donald Trump gave us the finger because of the treatment he got from Scottsdale, to the Biltmore, to downtown Phoenix.  I understand very much the need for solid longterm civic planning.  But does anyone else think that those who are motivated here in the Valley, and even Tucson, are way way to rigid when it comes to developers that want to build up and not out?   But isn't that part of the responsibility, planning for density.  Aren't the most successful cities even today the ones that are Dense and walkable.  For areas that are so stringent on responsible planning, it almost feels like they are arguing and exerting control just because they can.  

I can live in a state with Skylines that are mediocre at best.  But this state is exploding with growth, and It almost feels like developers are afraid to come here with solid proposals because of the high amount of scrutiny they will be put thru.  I have been accused before of being overly in favor of taller structures.  That there is more to a city than just tall buildings, I agree.  But it seems that in Maricopa county there is an over whelming urge to keep the landscape low and sprawling.  

I say, tall buildings augment, not detract from any view.

Phoenix has NOTHING on Tucson when it comes to height-phobia.  Most people in the Tucson area try to live out in the boonies, and scream if someone builds a 2 story building within 1000 yards of theirs. ( And then cry about the sprawl -- go figure ).   In Tucson's case, I would be happy to see LOTS mixed  of use  2-5 story developments ( in central Tucson ) rather than a few high-rises.

[convulso]

ErinJ, on Aug 30 2006, 11:33 PM, said:

Phoenix has NOTHING on Tucson when it comes to height-phobia.  Most people in the Tucson area try to live out in the boonies, and scream if someone builds a 2 story building within 1000 yards of theirs. ( And then cry about the sprawl -- go figure ).   In Tucson's case, I would be happy to see LOTS mixed  of use  2-5 story developments ( in central Tucson ) rather than a few high-rises.

can't add anything - except that i agree.

[shrek05]

a problem with phoenix is many of the people who come here are attracted by the scenic view, open skies, sunsets/sunrises. If god-forbid, 10 story buildings were built, they wouldnt be able to see the great sky. Many people are attracted to phoenix because it is a large city, yet its kind of like an escape from a large city. However, in general, I think as the old people are passing (lol, sorry), people are becoming more accepting (as Scottsdale has approved a number of 10+ story buildings.) Tempe has several 20-30 story towers under construction right now. I think in a decade or so we will have a much more impressive skyline.

[colin]

Tucson is full of NIMBYs and that's been a big problem here for years. But keep in mind that we are actually going to see some mid-rises soon enough in Central Tucson. Por ejemplo, the hard-fought Presidio Terrace will be at least 100'. Not exactly a skyscraper, but, if you think about it, Tucson's not really a skyscraper town. The mountains define the skyline here more than anything else and buildings that try to detract that attention would probably be looked at as having a negative impact on the ambiance and appeal here.
Phoenix isn't quite as defined by the mountains as Tucson, but, yeah, I think you're totally right: people moved there for mountain views and will fight with teeth and nails to keep those mountain views.
I think that Downtown has absolutely the best chance of skyscrapers in Phoenix just because there's not much in the way of residential around there, and the people that are living near there (on the west and south sides) don't have any money and/or influence to fight tall structures. But you gotta wonder what happens when a condo tower goes up Downtown (and they will be soon from what I'm hearing) and then another taller structure blocks one of its pretty mountain views...

[MJLO]

I think that's horse hooey.  The majority of people that move to Phoenix don't even know Arizona has mountains.  They move here because it's economically advantageous.  It's the people who have lived here for a while who are fighting.  Also Phoenix has that big city feel.  The fact that you don't see alot of tall buildings as representative to the size of the city just means that the skyline sucks.  Hop on the 202, 10, 17, 101, 60, and you'll know exactly what size city you're in.  The fact that there are only a few moderately tall buildings downtown make no difference in that, and i'm sure have little impact on peoples desire to move here, if not in a negative way.  And with that said, It has not been explained to me, how cutting off 30 feet from the top of a building in downtown Tempe, will keep it from becoming an exclusive rich less gentrified place.  I'm not sure what it is, I still contend, that tall buildings look great on the backdrop of mountains, they take away nothing from the view.

[Mith242]

I guess what I'd also be concerned about is that if you can't really build your city upwards then it simply keeps pushing so much growth outwards.  I know a lot of people around that area of the country don't seem too concerned because it's just 'desert' but I don't think I really like the idea of cities just sprawling out forever.

[MJLO]

OMG!  Will someone throw me a bone here. I'm so fricken annoyed, everyday I read in the paper about a new "mid-rise" structure.  Why do the people here hate anything over two floors?  It's driving me nuts, everytime even a low rise gets built the NIMBY's all scream like banshees in unison.  What am I missing.  Is it possible that the valley residents don't  want the rest of the country to take us seriously?  It doesn't matter what's being proposed or where.  There is always someone else who doesn't want it.   Phoenix has had problem with new developements and a classy skyline for decades.  But given that it's the fastest growing place in the nation, there should be tower cranes from end to end.   Noone has helped me understand the reasoning behind Tempes Leadership forceing developers to cut a few feet of of their buildings. There is noone to blame here but the whiny, shortsighted, environment killing residents. Who want nothing more than to keep this valley chalked full of Box stores, fast food joints, and beige homes from end to end.   I've about had it with this place.

[MJLO]

EVT News story more height news in Scottsdale.  DMB development corp is, building an office park One Scottsdale they want the height ordinance changed from 60ft to 89ft for some of the proposed buildings in the park.  The development is North of L101 at Thompson Peak PKWY.  It doesn't say where the city stands on it.  Would Scottsdale not allow buildings to go up at 90ft, in an area that's pretty much all open spaces?  Of all the cities in the Valley Scottsdale is by far the most stringent on height.  It is a suburb I guess, but it covers almost as much land area as Tucson with less than half the population.  Scottsdale is the biggest waster of land and resources in the valley.  A little density wouldn't kill it, and could go along way in helping to prolong the strained valley resources.

[ErinJ]

MJLO, on Sep 12 2006, 10:34 AM, said:

OMG!  Will someone throw me a bone here. I'm so fricken annoyed, everyday I read in the paper about a new "mid-rise" structure.  Why do the people here hate anything over two floors?  It's driving me nuts, everytime even a low rise gets built the NIMBY's all scream like banshees in unison.  What am I missing.  Is it possible that the valley residents don't  want the rest of the country to take us seriously?  It doesn't matter what's being proposed or where.  There is always someone else who doesn't want it.   Phoenix has had problem with new developements and a classy skyline for decades.  But given that it's the fastest growing place in the nation, there should be tower cranes from end to end.   Noone has helped me understand the reasoning behind Tempes Leadership forceing developers to cut a few feet of of their buildings. There is noone to blame here but the whiny, shortsighted, environment killing residents. Who want nothing more than to keep this valley chalked full of Box stores, fast food joints, and beige homes from end to end.   I've about had it with this place.

Well don't get too excited.  NIMBY's don't always win, and some can be helpful.  Also, I don't think you need high rises per se, or a big skyline.   Denser mixed use blocks of say 3-6 stories, designed around pedestrians would go a long way to injecting vitality into the cities. Arizona will probably never be really dense urban it is not in the culture here.  The exception will probably be along the Light Rail lines, 10 years from now, I bet there will be some nice, dense, quality development.  I do agree that the Valley of Sprawl gives boring development new meaning. .

[MJLO]

I'm not looking for Chicago in the valley.  even low rises are some times scoffed at here.  I've heard radio personalities utter the same sentiments as I speak.  I'm not against NIMBY's , they have their place and do society a favor at times.  But the levels of rigidity In the Valley here, I have not experienced anywhere else.

[MJLO]

Ok as I'm reading about this new Tempe Development I come accross this again:

Quote

The project’s overall height concerns Councilman Ben Arredondo. He’s objected to heights of some other projects and insisted that the neighboring University Square should not go an inch over the 300-foot limit.
Arredondo said he’s not thrilled to hear part of this project goes over the guideline.
“I thought we agreed to a height limit and not a fudge factor,” he said.
Arredondo said he checks any tall buildings to see if they are too close to neighborhoods or if block the view of Hayden Butte. Those seem to be the biggest concerns of Tempeans, he said.

Why 300ft ? how is that a majic number?  Is it really that much of an asthetic issue to be able to see the Buttes?  You all know my stance, having a little bit of height can be pretty in it's own right.  But noone will yet explain to my why long time Arizona residents look at building with some distance to the top would house satan!

[MJLO]

I reintroduce this thread after learning that the Cityscape towers have had a hieght reduction.

[nuplanner]

That sucks about the reduction at cityscape.  To your question, I think everyone has hit the nail on the head.  There are so many reasons why people have these enigmas over tall buildings.  It’s weird. When we did a design charrette at the end of the light rail line, people were ready to jump off a cliff when they saw the final height.  Most were fine and really liked it after being educated through the process.  Some said we can not see camelback mtn, or the sky.  I asked, how much do you look.  And said, you can’t even see camel back from your front porch, plus, the building is to the south of you anyway.  



With Waveyard, one lady was nervous that the 10 story buildings would be way too high and affect flight patters.  The council responded that there are 30 story towers closer to the airport in tempe, so there is no concern with 10 stories here.  There is a TOD getting ready to be built called “main st station” I think.  It’s a small mixed use project that is only 3 stories high.  We got this crazy letter from this lady and her husband and said that bombers, crime, sep 11^th and so forth will live here and destroy our community and so forth.  It was sooooo ridiculous that I could not laugh.  At the end, they said it is all facts, and if needed, they will give us the information where they got it.  With that, we knew they were full of it.



I think people have see what the “projects” have done, and think that is what it is.  Same with September 11^th.  People are scared of the unknown where everything is low density.  Remember, this city was basically built around the car and auto dependent where density is not necessary supported.



Things are slowly changing, but the market is not going to help that much now.