1452 replies to this topic

[tozmervo]

http://www.wsoctv.co...ms-quiet/nHRH2/

WSOC reports on the traffic issues surrounding the Walmart. They point out the obvious: unless you drive through the local neighborhood, you face pulling out onto fast-moving Independence Blvd. God help you if you need to get over to Albemarle Rd. It also sounds like CATS will begin bus service to that Walmart with the usual March 1 service change date - not sure what bus line(s) will be rerouted.

[Shawn&Zae]

^The state needs to eliminate the right turn onto Independence from the Walmart driveway now. Plenty of people will try to cross those three lanes just to get to the Albemarle exit. Maybe when the Sharon Amity interchange is built, it will start forcing more people to use the Pierson entrance ramp. Anyways, I'm a Target person, I rather deal with the soccer moms in empty SUVs searching for a parking spot at the Midtown Target than to bother with the traffic mess caused by Nancy Carter's insistence to revitalize the Independence corridor.

[dubone]

Since when is a large retailer replacing LESS retail space on a lot such a horrible thing?  The only reason we are not used to seeing the traffic effect of retail is because almost no one has been going to the retail that was there before Walmart.  

I don't shop at Walmart, but I think its location in a zone of dying big box retail on a transit corridor and high capacity thoroughfare is not bad policy.   Where would this have gone that wouldn't cause just as much traffic?    

The only problem are the people going across all lanes.   The cut through traffic is painful for the neighborhood, but these are city streets and as long as the traffic is calmed appropriately, it should be allowed to help ease some use of the freeway.  These cars could very well be from the nearby neighborhoods, which is totally valid.  

I agree that a reasonable control for this is to eliminate the right turn exits from the Walmart.  People can use the freeway entrance from Pierson or drive to the exits of the Coliseum Shopping Center, which would help support the retailers there.

My hope is just like the Wilkinson Walmart, that this Independence Walmart can help create additional redevelopment of the adjacent shopping.  In Wilkinson's case, the strip mall next door with Family Dollar got aesthetic improvements, and a more urban style of complementary retail near Wilkinson and Ashley.

[Third Strike]

Looks like construction on Independence might get delayed until 2013. The city wants to add a mass transit corridor down the middle of Independence (like the original Silver line), possibly using commuter rail. I wonder how this hypothetical line would look like. Would it be the same as the original LRT/BRT, merging off Independence Blvd, on to Independence Pointe Pkwy, then out to CPCC Levine? Or maybe, try to work with Union County, and have the rail go out to Indian Trail or Monroe, straight down US-74. Either way, I hope we'll get to hear something about the fate of the Silver line.

http://www.foxcharlo...-138300989.html

[Shawn&Zae]

This story doesn't sound so thorough, it was always said that the current widening project will have room for whatever transit mode in the middle of Independence and that each  new interchange particularly Sharon Amity will have room for a possible platform within the median as well as room for park and ride lots within or around the interchanges. Commuter rail doesn't make since along or within Independence Blvd, the spacing of the station now whether it's BRT or LRT is ideal for those modes, commuter rail tend to have more park and ride lots and stations are spread out farther. However it would be the MTC deciding the fate of the Silver Line, not City Council nor the County Commission. Then again we do not take the local news station so seriously as they always pointed out the obvious or lead to more confusion regarding transportation issues in Charlotte, the news media often refer the Red Line as light rail, WSOC-TV said we have secured funding for BLE, and etc.

[ajfunder]

How would a commuter line on the CSX line work out? CSX doesn't have the best rep with commuter rail and more capacity would have to be added to the line but it is just a suggestion.
Heres my idea for stations
Charlotte Gateway Station
North Brevard Street (with a an additional LYNX Blue Line station between 9th street and Parkwood to interchange passengers)
Hawthorne Lane/Central Avenue (Transfer stop with Streetcar)
Echo Hills (near Home Depot)
Monroe Road (near Village Lake Drive)
Matthews
Stallings
Indian Trail
Monroe

[Otto]

There are a number of challenges that will need to be overcome in order to establish commuter rail along CSX from Uptown Charlotte to Union County
(1) Capacity: There are currently no sidings (places where trains can pass each other) between Uptown Charlotte and Monroe...a distance of 25 miles.  Inbound trains (freight or commuter) would have to wait for an outbound train to completely traverse between uptown and Monroe.  Thite s significantly hampers CSX's operations between Pinoca Yard and Monroe Yard.  An investment in sidings would be necessary.  As the commuter trains would travel faster than many of the freights, it is likely that the sidings would need to be long enough to store an intire freight train.  Possibly 10,000 feet.
(2) Access to Charlotte Gateway Station:  Currently, there is no direct route between the NS Mainline to and from the proposed Gateway site and the CSX mainline towards Monroe.  The most ideal location is at the ADM flour mill site.  However, based off of how the mill is set up b/n the existing track configuration, the connection would be almost impossible w/o removing the mill.  The mill is also a contributing element of the Seaboard Street Historic District, which complicates things from a federal government standpoint.  The proposed Mainline Grade Separation Project which proposes to place the CSX tracks in a trench under the NS Mainline needs to also be considered.   As currently proposed, it does not facilitate commuter access from CSX to the Gateway Station.

[Spartan]

dubone, on 02 February 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

Since when is a large retailer replacing LESS retail space on a lot such a horrible thing?  The only reason we are not used to seeing the traffic effect of retail is because almost no one has been going to the retail that was there before Walmart.  

I don't shop at Walmart, but I think its location in a zone of dying big box retail on a transit corridor and high capacity thoroughfare is not bad policy.   Where would this have gone that wouldn't cause just as much traffic?

The only problem are the people going across all lanes.   The cut through traffic is painful for the neighborhood, but these are city streets and as long as the traffic is calmed appropriately, it should be allowed to help ease some use of the freeway.  These cars could very well be from the nearby neighborhoods, which is totally valid.  

I agree that a reasonable control for this is to eliminate the right turn exits from the Walmart.  People can use the freeway entrance from Pierson or drive to the exits of the Coliseum Shopping Center, which would help support the retailers there.

My hope is just like the Wilkinson Walmart, that this Independence Walmart can help create additional redevelopment of the adjacent shopping.  In Wilkinson's case, the strip mall next door with Family Dollar got aesthetic improvements, and a more urban style of complementary retail near Wilkinson and Ashley.

This Walmart should never have been located there. We all need to accept that Independence is an "interstate" and not a "street."  Would you want to see driveways feeding directly on to I-85? This is functionally the same concept.

The old Walmart at Central & Eastway could have been renovated. That location was at the heart of a small commercial center and it was located where a higher number people could actually walk there from their homes (many people are transit-dependent in that area). The new location does have a bus route, and you can walk there, but it's hard to argue that its not a horrid location. It will succeed because it's Walmart. Not because of the location.

[southslider]

Spartan, on 22 February 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

The new location does have a bus route...

The express buses running in the middle of Independence don't and can't stop at the new Wal-Mart.  I did hear CATS will start new local service within a couple weeks. Given the expressway nature of Independence, the new bus service (or re-routing of existing services) will connect via surrounding neighborhood streets.

Given the site's history as a commercial center, the location doesn't seem as horrible to me.  However, I do dislike the design of the driveway.  I think the driveway should have been designed more like an off-ramp, but now a low-cost fix would be to just make the driveway entry-only.

IKEA is located right off I-85.  Metropolitan is located right off of I-277.  But of course, neither of those developments have driveways directly off the expressway.  Still, each of those developments saw new highway ramps built with the development in mind.

Edited by southslider, 22 February 2012 - 12:53 PM.

[dubone]

What is the difference in expanding at Eastway and Central verses rebuilding an entire strip mall into their store?  Does Independence have a smaller capacity to handle the traffic than Eastway?  

If I could make wishes, I would say 74 ought to be I-174 or something from 277 to 74 in Rockingham.  However, this is no where on the books.  The highest level they are planning for in Independence is an expressway and continuing to support the commercial land use alongside it.  

The real problem is the ridiculous driveways directly onto the expressway. These commercial arterials/stripmall havens were a national trend, and many areas have already had to deal with them and have a far better job than NCDOT/CDOT have done with Independence.  There are designs out there which are far more successful by using collector streets or service roads to keep the retail alive, while supporting the goal of through traffic capacity as well.  An example is US19 in Clearwater, FL, but I have seen others.  The service roads also are far more efficient at the intersections as traffic is slower by the time it gets to the intersection, it doesn't need wide radii for the on/off ramps.  They are simply SPUI-style intersections under a bridge for through traffic.  

Neither the city nor the eastside will benefit from a total annihilation of the businesses along this stretch purely for a quicker way to commute to and from the suburban sprawl.  There needs to be a balance, since that has been the landuse for the last 40 years.  

Studies show there is a glut of retail space on the eastside, and Walmart is a retailer that the current demographics of the area shop at primarily.  That successful retailer has taken a dead strip mall with no alternate hope of revival from the dead and we are decrying the traffic coming from people actually shopping there.

I say fix the technical issues arising from the faulty design such as closing some driveways and adding signage to reduce the impact of people crossing all lanes.  They can even just paint a solid line keeping on-bound traffic from the driveways in the outer lane for a bit and have strong enforcement of that.  

Honestly, this traffic would already have been there if the previous strip mall actually had a current mix of retailers. The Walmart is a lower square footage building than what was there before.  

Personally, I don't shop at Walmart, and I don't have a car, and I don't go to retail much on Independence.   But unless all that land is going to be purchased for park-land, and the transit line down the center canceled, we, as a city, need businesses on that land that actually generate business.

[tozmervo]

southslider, on 22 February 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

The express buses running in the middle of Independence don't and can't stop at the new Wal-Mart.  I did hear CATS will start new local service within a couple weeks. Given the expressway nature of Independence, the new bus service (or re-routing of existing services) will connect via surrounding neighborhood streets.

Just FYI, starting March 5:

#232 Grier Heights – Service will be extended to the new Wal-Mart located off of Independence and Pierson.  The schedule will be adjusted to reflect the new route alignment

This will be the only bus service to the Walmart. For reference sake, the Eastland location was within a quarter mile of the 232, 9, 39 and 17.

[Spartan]

southslider, on 22 February 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

The express buses running in the middle of Independence don't and can't stop at the new Wal-Mart.  I did hear CATS will start new local service within a couple weeks. Given the expressway nature of Independence, the new bus service (or re-routing of existing services) will connect via surrounding neighborhood streets.

Given the site's history as a commercial center, the location doesn't seem as horrible to me.  However, I do dislike the design of the driveway.  I think the driveway should have been designed more like an off-ramp, but now a low-cost fix would be to just make the driveway entry-only.

IKEA is located right off I-85.  Metropolitan is located right off of I-277.  But of course, neither of those developments have driveways directly off the expressway.  Still, each of those developments saw new highway ramps built with the development in mind.

Metropolitan has a grid.

IKEA is located off of University City Blvd, which intersects with I-85. UC Blvd is designed for higher traffic volumes since it will eventually connect over to the end of N Graham St, and currently connects to N Tryon and a future LRT station.

Walmart is located directly on Independence. While you can access it via Pierson Dr, it was not designed as a true interchange, which is why there are traffic problems at that location now. The site acts a lot like a giant dead-end street. Sure you can use the neighborhoods to connect over to Albemarle, Sharon Amity, and Monroe, but those streets weren't designed for that purpose.

dubone, on 22 February 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

What is the difference in expanding at Eastway and Central verses rebuilding an entire strip mall into their store?  Does Independence have a smaller capacity to handle the traffic than Eastway?  

The interstatification of Independence has consistently destroyed the commercial land values. It's a very simple cause and effect situation. I don't see any practical reason to revive those businesses because access to them is impossible. I would support the creating of collector/frontage streets that can be used to access business there, though they would need to connect into the neighborhoods for neighborhood services. I don't see much major retail location along that stretch of Independence.

The site on Eastway was probably less than 1/2 mile from the highway, and in the middle of the so-called "Little Mexico" part of town.Tons of people who are transit dependent live over there, and walk(ed) to the shopping center. It has(had) better access to more and better transit options (as the previous poster mentioned) and more neighborhood service businesses for the people who lived there.

I understand Walmarts's move (higher visibility, more affluent customers on Indy) but from a community perspective, the move was terrible.

[dubone]

Fair points.   I just find it hard to imagine why on earth we want a rapid transit line down the middle of freaking Independence if it can't handle re-emergence of local traffic.   The thru-commuters off to the hinterlands have not had to deal with cars going to the retail that's there because no one goes.  So while I see some higher order cons to the location for Walmart, the hubbub lately isn't really about that but that it is adding some traffic to Independence.

I just can't envision a time when these land plots are either the TOD utopia that would warrant or support a light rail line or a time when brick walls go up like in Elizabeth all the way down to Matthews and have that land re-orient itself back out to their neighborhoods.    We are stuck with commercial land uses for another generation, so my point is why not have them be commercial retail that people actually go to.

[southslider]

Third Strike, on 03 February 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

Looks like construction on Independence might get delayed until 2013. The city wants to add a mass transit corridor down the middle of Independence (like the original Silver line), possibly using commuter rail.
http://www.foxcharlo...-138300989.html

dubone, on 28 February 2012 - 02:42 AM, said:

I just find it hard to imagine why on earth we want a rapid transit line down the middle of freaking Independence if it can't handle re-emergence of local traffic.

If FOX Charlotte and other media outlets would actually do some research, they would realize that CATS is no longer planning rapid transit down the middle of Independence.  The October 2011 MTC minutes clearly state that board took action to no longer preserve the middle of this hybrid street-highway for rapid transit.

http://charmeck.org/...er 26, 2011.pdf

[dubone]

How did I miss that? And why is the Silver line BRT still on CAT's website?   But ok,  so if that is gone, does CATS plan to start taking a look at the ULI proposal for more streetcars in the southeast, including along Monroe Road?

EDIT:  Ok, I guess I missed that whole development last fall, and actually it makes me happy.  I was always pretty cold on the idea of Indy median transit.  And I guess that yes, they both want that land to reorient to the neighborhoods and have the neighborhoods urbanize towards Monroe.  I like it!  

As for Walmart then, seal the driveways and improve the Pierson interchange and be done with it.

[Shawn&Zae]

If the transit plans for within Independence is gone, then the bus lanes should revert back to its original goals as reversible HOV lanes as envision back before Charlotte had a transit plan. There was a news story about how the NC DOT is trying to figure out or possibly keeping  would be toll paying customers from the Monroe Bypass onto the would be HOV lanes down on Independence.

Edited by Shawn&Zae, 28 February 2012 - 10:24 PM.

[dubone]

I agree.  It is actually kind of infuriating too look back on this.  The Wendover/Eastway bridge cost a lot to replace PURELY to remove the support pillars from the transitway.   I guess it is better, though, to pause and rethink it now rather than continuing to invest in the folly.   But it seems the ULI proposal that the MTC is taking seriously still has a few stops on it for express/"BRT" busses, at Briar Creek, Idlewild and Sardis, so I might gather than they would keep this stretch for transit-only.   Even if they convert to HOT lanes for cars all the way to 277, having it reversible would be difficult given the difficulty off getting a single lane of fast-moving cars out and onto 277, let alone a second lane.

Maybe I am wrong as I haven't had a chance to read the full report.

http://www.thmgmt.co...ipReportWeb.pdf

Regardless, it makes a lot of sense to, at a minimum, make the remainder of the build out would have a single median and use paint to create a bus-friendly HOT lane.  But on the already-built section, it would be dangerous to have opposing HOT traffic moving at freeway speeds with just a painted median, but I don't know how difficult it would be to take out the 2 jersey barriers and replace with a single one, given drainage and other concerns.  

This is one of those things I had simply accepted as fact, but now that is being reconsidered seems to make absolute sense like 'why didn't they plan this all along'.  In the end, exurban commuters get an express bus for commute hours, and the urban residents get a rail line (streetcar) to increase capacity and spur urban densification of the neighborhoods along Monroe Rd.  There are already good transit demographics along Monroe.    Plus, the ideal setup for Independence is to eventually be be an interstate-level freeway, as clearly it is needed for that radius of the city, so putting a wall up and reorienting the dying parcels from Independence to the neighborhoods (like what was done in Elizabeth) will be a net positive.

However, there is still going to be some level of auto-oriented development that remains along the freeway, and they are still going to need to add a string of service roads.

[Shawn&Zae]

There are plans from CDOT to have service roads between the Eastway and Albermarle interchanges, one of them would run through the Coliseum Shopping Center parking lot connecting to the Walmart parking lot, well at least on the maps I've found. IMO, if NCDOT had rebuilt Independence as a full freeway like the section from I-277 to Briar Creek instead of a half-ass expressway with plenty of driveways, problems with vacant properties and ones like Walmart wouldn't be a problem. The freeway section actually helped Elizabeth and Plaza-Midwood,

[tozmervo]

"Nominate the Best and Worst Transportation Projects in the Country"
http://action.sierra..._src=112AGTNZ01

I think I'm actually going to sit here and take the time to nominate the Garden Parkway. I hope no one has to ask if I'm nominating for best or worst.

[dubone]

Haha.  Poor Garden Parkway.  I guess you have no love for toll freeways with single lanes per direction acting as beltways around dying industrial towns?

As for the service roads, do you have a link to more information on that?  I have really seen anything of the sort, although obviously that would be another good way to close the driveways going to Wallyworld.

The half-ass freeway was to save money, but also to keep the retail alive.  That failed, so yeah, it will be a good thing to go in and take it to the next level.   Of course, there is still the strange issue of Independence always being listed on the top for congestion and traffic volumes, but very low for funding priority.   Hopefully once 485 and 85 are done, it will not have to compete with as many megaprojects for funding.

If we can get plans for service roads in place, I'd love to see all of Independence be done at once as a freeway extension of the tollway from Union.   Build it from the outer sections in, and use the revenues to add sections over time and eventually get to Idlewild and do the upgrades from Briar Creek to Idlewild then.