1452 replies to this topic

[monsoon]

NcSc74, on Sep 7 2006, 01:27 AM, said:

What they are trying to do is have a viable link from the state port at Morehead City to to the interior of the state. As it stands now hwy 70 is not a full limited access to the port.  I find it odd that it took this long to try and link a deep water port to the industry in the state. that is one of the main reasons why both Wilmington and Morehead City have lagged behind most other major east coast ports. I don't have a problem trying to improve the connectivity of our ports. Think about it...Morehead City has a natural channel depth of roughly 49 feet. To me it is a shame.

Morehead City reminds me a great deal of Georgetown, SC in terms of it's port facilities.   It's mostly limited to fishermen and recreational boaters.   If they build a major port facility there, I wonder what it would do to the historic nature of the place?   Most of the state's manufacturing is located in the mid to western 1/2 of the state and I think that a great deal of it will continue to go into SC mainly because it is closer.

[e2ksj3]

dubone, on Sep 7 2006, 08:38 AM, said:

I'm not so sure they do much with those public comments.  

I don't want to veer too far off subject, but I think the explanation on upgrading NC 58 to a freeway is probably the correct explanation.  But it is still not satisfactory to me.  117 is/will be a freeway, and US 70 also will be a freeway.  I forgot that they are not already.  

There is a $130million dollar project to upgrade 70 to a freeway around Kinston (R-2553).  Then there is a $250m project to connect Kinston Bypass to Goldsboro Bypass as a freeway (R-2554).   So we are spending $380m to upgrade that stretch of 70 so that the 117 and 70 route will be a freeway route between Wilson and Kinston.  It is 45 miles long.  So then, to shave 10 miles off the route, they are adding an additional freeway, NC58 to be more direct between Wilson and Kinson at $300m (R-3102).  I'm not begrudging them A freeway between two towns, on its way to the deep port, or on its way to the empty airport.  I'm begrudging them TWO freeways roughly the same length, spending $300m and all sorts of environmental havock.   Meanwhile, $300 million dollars would buys significant roadway improvements in Charlotte, which I think would have a much larger economic response.

I know the state's intention is good one, to help the economy of eastern NC but common sense should kick in.  They can't just stick something there and expect high paying jobs to come there.  Just look at the so called Industrial Park near Kinston.  They throw all these incentives and create a nice airport and road links, but it still doesn't create many jobs and at the expense of the metropolitan areas that are actually bringing money into the state.  Like metro suggested, why would they use it if it was built.  You have Charleston's port and Norfolk/Hampton Roads port.  

I've also heard that they proposed a US 70 bypass for Clayton.  I'm no transportation engineer or anything, but the traffic on that road shouldn't be as bad now, since many people along US 70 can now, take the 117 ("The freeway to Nowhere" as my mom calls it, lol) bypass to US 264 to 64 to Raleigh/Durham, without hitting a single stoplight and avoiding US 70 through Smithfield and Clayton.  That money could spent on projects like ummm... lets see actually finishing 485 before the next century.  

[NcSc74]

monsoon, on Sep 7 2006, 05:51 AM, said:

Morehead City reminds me a great deal of Georgetown, SC in terms of it's port facilities.   It's mostly limited to fishermen and recreational boaters.   If they build a major port facility there, I wonder what it would do to the historic nature of the place?   Most of the state's manufacturing is located in the mid to western 1/2 of the state and I think that a great deal of it will continue to go into SC mainly because it is closer.

That is one of the reasons better links are needed. Had the infrastructure been there in the first place then we would not hve this conversation.  Both ports have increased productions since upgrades and improvements have been made. To say oh well we can always rely on SC aor VA ports is not a good stratagy when selling a place for industrial location.  Wilimington has only had an interstate link for what 20 years or so.  Morehead City already has a good foothold as a bulk tonnage port on the east coast. The main goal is to get container traffic in anticipation port congestion in the future. Like it or not for a heavily industrialized state like NC the need for its ports to handle its on imports and exports is crucial to staying competitive. I am not advocating that all of these freeways be built but at some time cetain issues have to be addressed.

[dubone]

I think it is fine for them to get infrastructure.  The problem is redundant infrastructure.  Please tell me with a straight face that it is worth 300 million dollars to shave 10 miles off the freeway trip between Kinston and Wilson.  That solves no issues except to keep the burn rate for project money in that division.

It would do vastly more for eastern NC to upgrade US74 west of Rockingham, as Charlotteans, including me, would be far more likely to go to NC beaches and ports and tourism destinations.  But now, it is equidistant to SC beaches and ports, but the freeways tip the scales heavily for SC.

[BobbyRobert]

Morehead city's future will always be limited as a port. No matter how may mainland improvements you construct the port will always be in the shadow of Cape Lookout, a shoal (sandbar) that extends 30+ miles into the Atlantic. This means that any ship running along the coast would need to navigate around the shoals (30 miles each way) to get to the docks in Morehead. This is not an insignificant detour (an extra 6+ hours of non-revenue producing sailing time).  Land based maps generally don't depict the shoal so Morehead city appears to be more accessible to sea lanes than it actually is. Given Morehead City's really inconvenient location (compared to Norfolk and Charleston) it is unlikely to become anything more than a bulk freight terminal (unless, Charleston, Norfolk and Wilmington reach capacity)

Edited by BobbyRobert, 08 September 2006 - 07:36 AM.

[NcSc74]

Virtually every port south of the mouth of the James river has shoals and sand bars.  I hate this defeatist attitude when it comes to NC trying to upgrade what has been lacking for a long time. I do agree that a direct link to Charlotte would be great. The main purpose here is to make a prime spot on the east coast more attractive to shipping lines. Not saying Morehead City will rival Norfolk but the price is right and there is land for expansion.

[NcSc74]

Didn't mean to hijack this thread with port talk. I have a fetish for it I guess. One project I am looking to keep up with is the Independence upgrade to an expressway. I get frustrated too with the NCDOT and the way it choses projects and most of all the planning of new interstates. I said before and will say it again...how do you not include a provision for I-73/74 or whatever to have to have at least a spur to Charlotte or to Wilmington. Mindblowing the route 74 takes to the SC border.

[BobbyRobert]

NcSc74, on Sep 9 2006, 02:22 AM, said:

Virtually every port south of the mouth of the James river has shoals and sand bars.  I hate this defeatist attitude when it comes to NC trying to upgrade what has been lacking for a long time. I do agree that a direct link to Charlotte would be great. The main purpose here is to make a prime spot on the east coast more attractive to shipping lines. Not saying Morehead City will rival Norfolk but the price is right and there is land for expansion.

A quick check of any chart (or even google earth) reveals that this is not the case. North Carolina's ports are significantly more distant from deep water than any other on the east coast (save Baltimore and Philadelphia). Morehead City is not a pirme spot on the east coast (there is very little deepwater space available for container movements ) , throwing money at it with the hopes of making it into the next Charleston would be a waste (unless Norfolk, Charleston, Savannah and Wilmington somehow reach capacity).

[MZT]

If NC puts any serious money into deepwater ports, SC and VA will race us with their own improvements. Ports are *intensely* competitive and governments covet them too greatly, to let a lead evaporate without a fight.

Edited by MZT, 09 September 2006 - 09:00 PM.

[monsoon]

NcSc74, on Sep 9 2006, 02:28 AM, said:

Didn't mean to hijack this thread with port talk. I have a fetish for it I guess. One project I am looking to keep up with is the Independence upgrade to an expressway. I get frustrated too with the NCDOT and the way it choses projects and most of all the planning of new interstates. I said before and will say it again...how do you not include a provision for I-73/74 or whatever to have to have at least a spur to Charlotte or to Wilmington. Mindblowing the route 74 takes to the SC border.

Honestly, I think the upgrades to turn 74 into a freeway from downtown to Albemaro Rd have done far more harm to the city than good.   Like all freeways, it has divided the city, cut off access between neighborhoods, and has had a lot to do with the decline of East Charlotte.   25 years ago, though it was congested, there was much more of a neighborhood feel to that part of town than there is today.   Now we have a faceless freeway that leads to the sprawl that was built after that project was started and a bunch of empty buildings along the route.   The only thing they should have bult was the busway and instead finished 485 much sooner to give traffic a way to get to 85 and 77 without having to use Independence.

[ChiefJoJo]

Quote

I said before and will say it again...how do you not include a provision for I-73/74 or whatever to have to have at least a spur to Charlotte or to Wilmington. Mindblowing the route 74 takes to the SC border.

Because there's an interstate highway that links Ohio, WV, VA, NC (Charlotte) already called I-77.  Wilmington has I-40, and will have a direct link from I-95 along US 74 as I-20 or some other designation.

[Miesian Corners]

monsoon, on Sep 11 2006, 10:51 AM, said:

Honestly, I think the upgrades to turn 74 into a freeway from downtown to Albemaro Rd have done far more harm to the city than good. Like all freeways, it has divided the city, cut off access between neighborhoods, and has had a lot to do with the decline of East Charlotte. 25 years ago, though it was congested, there was much more of a neighborhood feel to that part of town than there is today. Now we have a faceless freeway that leads to the sprawl that was built after that project was started and a bunch of empty buildings along the route. The only thing they should have bult was the busway and instead finished 485 much sooner to give traffic a way to get to 85 and 77 without having to use Independence.

Well, to be fair, Independence had to be upgraded.  I remember being terrified as a child on the narrow concrete section between Briar Creek and Hawthorne Lane.  Now that stretch is actually kind of attractive with the trees and berms.  Great view of the skyline too .  Amity Gardens Shopping Center will be demolished in the first half of 2007 (and although I despise this retailer) a brand spanking new Wal-Mart Supercenter with bus depot will go in its place.  The redevelopment of Coliseum Center site is planned for the same time.

While I agree that Independence severed neighborhoods (i.e. Elizabeth, Chantilly) when it was built, I-77 severs entire towns in north Meck. yet no one complains about it.

[monsoon]

Miesian Corners, on Sep 11 2006, 11:48 AM, said:

While I agree that Independence severed neighborhoods (i.e. Elizabeth, Chantilly) when it was built, I-77 severs entire towns in north Meck. yet no one complains about it.

No not at all.   All of the growth that occured west of I-77 occured "after" the road was built.    No neighborhoods and zero lot line buildings were leveled to build it.   The traditional centers of of Huntersville, Davidson and Cornelius are all on the east side.  In any case, it is completely irrelevant to the point at hand.

[Miesian Corners]

^ If that were the case, every interchange connecting the east and west of Huntersville, Cornelius, and Davidson wouldn't be congested at any given time of the day or night.  

The only neighborhoods that Independence divided were the two I mentioned and Commonweath (which was screwed up by the Eastway/Wendover connection constructed in 1975).  The remaining ones were built post Independence.  The boulevard itself is partly responsible for the tremendous growth that took place in East Charlotte in the 1970s and '80s.

[uptownliving]

The City is scheduled to test a new asphalt material that, if successful, may reduce maintenance cost, increase the life of the pavement, and potentially reduce asphalt quantities used. The new asphalt mix will be tested along Park Road between Smithfield Church Road and South Mecklenburg High School. The new material will be evaluated at this location over the next two years. The anticipated date for this work is the first week of October 2006.

[monsoon]

Miesian Corners, on Sep 11 2006, 09:22 PM, said:

^ If that were the case, every interchange connecting the east and west of Huntersville, Cornelius, and Davidson wouldn't be congested at any given time of the day or night.

You must be referring to Exit 25 which was built long long after I-77 was constructed and yes it is congested and due to bad zoning by Mecklenburg country.  Exit 23, 28, and 30 are fine plus there are several  bridges that connect the two sides which are not freeway exits.  Since they are local roads, there is no congestion on them at all.  Davidson does not exist west if I-77 except for one condo development on the Lake.  Maybe you ought to take a trip up here before you make comments that are not correct.  In any case it is irrelevant to the situation on Independence which is a completely different situation and one wonders your motivations for bringing it up in the first place.

[monsoon]

Miesian Corners, on Sep 11 2006, 09:22 PM, said:

The only neighborhoods that Independence divided were the two I mentioned and Commonweath (which was screwed up by the Eastway/Wendover connection constructed in 1975).  The remaining ones were built post Independence.  The boulevard itself is partly responsible for the tremendous growth that took place in East Charlotte in the 1970s and '80s.

Turning Independence into a freeway basically divided all of the land between Eastway drive and downtown Charlotte. Miles of businesses and homes were leveled to make it so. That is a huge area that I would not trivialize by calling it a couple of neighborhoods.    It also greatly increased the traffic down this corridor which makes pollution and noise much worse.   That section of Independence that was scary was due to the fact the NCDOT repainted the lines on a 4 lane highway to make it a 6 lane highway by reducing lane size to 9 ft instead of the standard 12.   It was a bad decsion.  They should have instead to put in a plan to divert west bound traffic around the city to I-77 and I-85 which is responsible for a huge amount of traffic, and left Independence to operate as a local road.   This would have also eliminated the need for at least some of I-277.

[RiverwoodCLT]

Who every said that the NCDOT was smart.  I have seen a big drop of 18 wheelers on Independence since I485 goes to I85N and I77 & I85 South.

[revitalize]

uptownliving, on Sep 11 2006, 09:34 PM, said:

The City is scheduled to test a new asphalt material that, if successful, may reduce maintenance cost, increase the life of the pavement, and potentially reduce asphalt quantities used. The new asphalt mix will be tested along Park Road between Smithfield Church Road and South Mecklenburg High School. The new material will be evaluated at this location over the next two years. The anticipated date for this work is the first week of October 2006.

Is this why one lane out of 4 is not yet re-paved?   Gotta love driving over manhole covers sticking up 2" above the pavement  

[Miesian Corners]

monsoon, on Sep 12 2006, 06:25 AM, said:

You must be referring to Exit 25 which was built long long after I-77 was constructed and yes it is congested and due to bad zoning by Mecklenburg country. Exit 23, 28, and 30 are fine plus there are several bridges that connect the two sides which are not freeway exits. Since they are local roads, there is no congestion on them at all. Davidson does not exist west if I-77 except for one condo development on the Lake. Maybe you ought to take a trip up here before you make comments that are not correct. In any case it is irrelevant to the situation on Independence which is a completely different situation and one wonders your motivations for bringing it up in the first place.

I brought it up because all last year I drove it on a daily basis (non-rush hour) from uptown to the new Lowe's corporate facility while working on a land-use study for Langtree Road.  I also have a very good friend who lives in Rosedale who complains about the traffic, and I spent a good amount of time on Lake Norman when I had a boat docked at another friend's house off Exit 28.  I guess "correct" is simply a matter of opinion.  I think the traffic up there sucks.