37 replies to this topic

[Andrea]

Pillsbury, on Oct 13 2006, 09:14 AM, said:

I'm sure this happens everywhere, but it seems absurd that a city such as Atlanta is having to finance MARTA on its own.

I don't know the situation in other cities, but it wouldn't surprise me if MARTA is the only public transportation system in the country which gets no state money.

[ryanmckibben]

Andrea, on Oct 13 2006, 11:37 AM, said:

I don't know the situation in other cities, but it wouldn't surprise me if MARTA is the only public transportation system in the country which gets no state money.

It's not the only transit system to get no state money, but it is the largest and only system that includes heavy rail that gets no state help (except, of course D.C's Metro system, but they have Uncle Sam helping them out).

[verge]

Exactly, I get excited reading these forums and think, "wow, things are really changing," and then I open up the AJC and read a couple of letters or I read that Wooten column and see that really nothing has changed....
[/quote]
Well I think things ARE changing... and from the looks of the numbers the change will be both massive and
all-encompassing... It should be noted that this kind of population growth and the changes that it brings (like diversity) scares a lot of rural folks (and most republicans) to death--- Atlanta is seen as a mind-boggling mistake in the backwoods and hinterlands of this state...

Edited by verge, 13 October 2006 - 04:29 PM.

[Unifour]

Pillsbury, on Oct 12 2006, 05:03 PM, said:

Very well said.  For too long Atlanta has had to do things on its own, often depite the actions of the state, which I think is ridiculous.   But I just don't see people embracing mass transit as a viable alternative right now, even in metro Atlanta.   No one seems to support it.   Every week it seems as though Jim Wooten of the AJC is attacking mass transit in one way or the other.  Why do they even let that guy write a column?

The reason public transportation is not embraced is because it is uncompetitive when compared to private cars. It does not take most people where most people want to go, and it cannot ever do so. Private automobiles are the cause of upward mobility, and have given the greatest number of people the ability to go where they wish and need to go. They have increased job opportunities for the less well off by giving them access to the jobs. Around the world, the percentage of people travelling by public transportation is falling relative to autos because autos serve thier needs and desires. Public transit, no matter how extensive, does nothing to reduce traffic or congestion-it continues to rise in every city no matter how much ridership increases. Atlanta needs to build the roads it needs to handle the rising standard of living and the increased automobiles that come with it instead of trying to kill the capitalist goose that has laid the golden economic eggs with more government funded socialism. Atlanta had the best growth pattern of them all until they fell victim to smart growth. If Atlanta loses it's luster, the entire South could suffer...

Edited by Unifour, 14 October 2006 - 02:47 PM.

[monsoon]

^That is absolutely not true.  I suggest that you travel to Tokyo, the most prosperious city on the planet to see how public transportation there has made it the most mobile city on the planet.   The fact of the matter is there is no 1st tier city on the planet, where most of the planet's wealth is concentrated that does not have an extensive public transportation system.

It's a myth to believe that automobiles provide access to upward mobility because the expense of owning one often diverts huge amounts of money away from other projects that could provide greater access to more of our population.   Furthermore, automobiles create an unsustainable lifesytle.  While it may be good for people now, the time will come when it is time to pay the piper and the entire economy that revolves around cheap oil and land will come to an end.

[Pillsbury]

Unifour, on Oct 14 2006, 04:38 PM, said:

The reason public transportation is not embraced is because it is uncompetitive when compared to private cars. It does not take most people where most people want to go, and it cannot ever do so. Private automobiles are the cause of upward mobility, and have given the greatest number of people the ability to go where they wish and need to go. They have increased job opportunities for the less well off by giving them access to the jobs. Around the world, the percentage of people travelling by public transportation is falling relative to autos because autos serve thier needs and desires. Public transit, no matter how extensive, does nothing to reduce traffic or congestion-it continues to rise in every city no matter how much ridership increases. Atlanta needs to build the roads it needs to handle the rising standard of living and the increased automobiles that come with it instead of trying to kill the capitalist goose that has laid the golden economic eggs with more government funded socialism. Atlanta had the best growth pattern of them all until they fell victim to smart growth. If Atlanta loses it's luster, the entire South could suffer...

Who wants to take people out of their cars?  I'm simply suggesting that in one of America's greatest cities, perhaps this backwoods hick state ought to allocate funds to at least help with Atlanta's transit system.    Perhaps if the transit system was extended out into the suburbs maybe more people would ride.   What's the true social engineering?   Do you mean 12 lane freeways cutting through pristine countryside so that people can spend 2 hours out of their day inside their car?   Do you mean taxpayer-funded freeways that disconnect people from each other, foster decay within our central cities, pollute the air, and basically just put people in a bad mood while their idling engines burn a non-renewable fossil fuel that profits the very people we hate?   How about  12 lane freeways in places like Macon, Georgia, where there is neither the vehicle traffic nor the funds to build such highways?  Do you mean that social engineering?  No, of course you don't.   The enemy is public transportation.   How sad.

[Andrea]

I don't agree with Unifour's analysis, but I have to acknowledge that for many people in metro Atlanta public transportation is not a very good alternative.  That's not the fault of public transportation, but our city simply hasn't developed with that in mind.  Our jobs, homes, schools, recreational and shopping destinations are *way* too spread out for it.  With the exception of a handful of areas, our population density is way too low for it.  In most areas area, pedestrian access to and from transportation stations (and in the zones around those stations) is extremely challenging.

30 years ago when it was still common for people to commute into downtown offices from nearby surrounding neighborhoods, public transportation was more straightforward.  These days you're more likely to be working in Alpharetta, Suwanee, Kennesaw, Dunwoody or Lithia Springs.  And to live in Snellville, Canton, Dacula, Dallas or Peachtree City.

[kayman]

I'm kinda having trouble believing that 800,000 figure.  I could see 650,000, but not 800,000.

[moonshield]

I can't imagine what Atlanta would be like with 800k people. It's already a very lively place, it has the feeling of excitement even when just driving down Peachtree in Buckhead towards Midtown.

Mass transit shouldn't go everywhere, many people don't want to live by it. The reason they live far out, on windy roads, is so they don't have to see certain types of people. That's fine, putting mass transit there wouldn't make sense because of the low densities anyway. Mass transit should, however, connect the big employment, and dense residential centers.

[krazeeboi]

Unifour, on Oct 14 2006, 03:38 PM, said:

The reason public transportation is not embraced is because it is uncompetitive when compared to private cars. It does not take most people where most people want to go, and it cannot ever do so.

It appears as though you are not well-traveled at all. I think the DC area alone proves you wrong.

Quote

Atlanta had the best growth pattern of them all until they fell victim to smart growth. If Atlanta loses it's luster, the entire South could suffer...

"Fastest" and "best" are not the same thing. And understand that we're not living in the 1950's; if Atlanta "loses its luster," there are several Southern cities that are more than able to pick up the slack.

Edited by krazeeboi, 15 October 2006 - 04:24 AM.

[ryanmckibben]

Unifour, on Oct 14 2006, 04:38 PM, said:

The reason public transportation is not embraced is because it is uncompetitive when compared to private cars. It does not take most people where most people want to go, and it cannot ever do so. Private automobiles are the cause of upward mobility, and have given the greatest number of people the ability to go where they wish and need to go. They have increased job opportunities for the less well off by giving them access to the jobs. Around the world, the percentage of people travelling by public transportation is falling relative to autos because autos serve thier needs and desires. Public transit, no matter how extensive, does nothing to reduce traffic or congestion-it continues to rise in every city no matter how much ridership increases. Atlanta needs to build the roads it needs to handle the rising standard of living and the increased automobiles that come with it instead of trying to kill the capitalist goose that has laid the golden economic eggs with more government funded socialism. Atlanta had the best growth pattern of them all until they fell victim to smart growth. If Atlanta loses it's luster, the entire South could suffer...

Go easy Pillsbury, not everyone has the ability to think independantly and must often times rely on the same old tired ass overused right wing bullcrap to justify their own little perception of reality. Spending $250 million to build a streetcar line on P'Tree is social engineering, spending $180 million (i think) to rebuild the I-85 interchange w/ GA316, why that's capitalism at its finest.

I wonder what the weathers like in his world?

Edited by ryanmckibben, 15 October 2006 - 07:36 PM.

[Pillsbury]

Andrea, on Oct 14 2006, 06:41 PM, said:

I don't agree with Unifour's analysis, but I have to acknowledge that for many people in metro Atlanta public transportation is not a very good alternative.  That's not the fault of public transportation, but our city simply hasn't developed with that in mind.  Our jobs, homes, schools, recreational and shopping destinations are *way* too spread out for it.  With the exception of a handful of areas, our population density is way too low for it.  In most areas area, pedestrian access to and from transportation stations (and in the zones around those stations) is extremely challenging.

30 years ago when it was still common for people to commute into downtown offices from nearby surrounding neighborhoods, public transportation was more straightforward.  These days you're more likely to be working in Alpharetta, Suwanee, Kennesaw, Dunwoody or Lithia Springs.  And to live in Snellville, Canton, Dacula, Dallas or Peachtree City.

I understand.  But there has to be population centers in and around Atlanta that people commute to and from.   Like Moonshield said, it would probably would not work for a lot of people simply because of the lack of density, but it would work for some.  

My only point was that it as a state we spend a lot of money on highway improvements and widenings that in my opinion are wasteful---often, these projects are pointed out as being needed to spur economic development.   Which is absolutely fine with me.  All I'm saying is that we could use a small portion of those funds to develop mass transit in the same way.     It is needed.   Just check out this article this morning.  You're number one Atlanta!!! :   Traffic Commute

It is unfair for the state to ignore Atlanta like this.

ryanmckibben, on Oct 15 2006, 09:32 PM, said:

Go easy Pillsbury, not everyone has the ability to think independantly and must often times rely on the same old tired ass overused right wing bullcrap to justify their own little perception of reality. Spending $250 million to build a streetcar line on P'Tree is social engineering, spending $180 million (i think) to rebuild the I-85 interchange w/ GA316, why that's capitalism at its finest.

Yeah, I didn't mean to get all riled up!!  

ryanmckibben, on Oct 15 2006, 09:32 PM, said:

I wonder what the weathers like in his world?

Heehehhe, I'm sure he'd say it is a perfect Fall day (which it is, even though temperatures are supposed to go back up to the mid to upper 80s by the end of the week) and that global warming has absolutely nothing to do with our poisoning of our environment!!!

Edited by Pillsbury, 16 October 2006 - 07:52 AM.

[Andrea]

Pillsbury, on Oct 16 2006, 08:55 AM, said:

My only point was that it as a state we spend a lot of money on highway improvements and widenings that in my opinion are wasteful---often, these projects are pointed out as being needed to spur economic development.   Which is absolutely fine with me.  All I'm saying is that we could use a small portion of those funds to develop mass transit in the same way.     It is needed.   Just check out this article this morning.  You're number one Atlanta!!! :   Traffic Commute

Yep, although I don't think we should limit our expenditure for mass transit to a small portion of what is invested in transportation generally.  Nobody bats an eye over spending billions for highways -- can you imagine what sort of city we'd have if we spent a comparable amount on more efficient modes of transportation?

[urbanaturalist]

If you BUILD IT.....THEY WILL COME.  

In this case if you build new Metro transit stops into outlying counties AND build dense TOD within a half a mile of the stop people will begin to use the services.

I'm not from ATL, but I've been there several times.  I can't imagine ending further Metro expansion, even as the population grows.  That is like your rapper.......LUDACRIS.....

[Trae]

Quote

Atlanta had the best growth pattern of them all until they fell victim to smart growth. If Atlanta loses it's luster, the entire South could suffer...

The south would not suffer if Atlanta lost its luster. Atlanta does not keep the south running and is not the motor of the south. I am sure Houston, Miami, Dallas, Charlotte, and Nashville could pick up the slack if Atlanta did lose its luster.

Edited by Trae, 17 October 2006 - 12:40 PM.

[Lady Celeste]

I had no idea where to put this and I didn't think starting a new thread would be necessary. It definitely ties in with Atlanta's future growth potential.

Here's an Atlanta statistic that should help get some of these spec towers under construction filled.

Atlanta ranks high on worldwide list of cheapest places to do business.

Atlanta has been named as one of the cheapest places to do business in the world. This has been helped by the weakening dollar. That's the bad side. The good side is that more international business could be looking to expand into the US to do business so definitely being one of the cheapest places to do business is a great thing. Anything that could generate jobs for current and future citizens of the metro.

The two other US cities to make this worldwide list were Dallas-Ft. Worth and Tampa.

Quote

The study measured competitiveness using labor costs, taxes, real estate and utilities, as well as non-monetary factors. It included Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Mexico, the Netherlands, Britain and all 50 states in the U.S. Those were all compared against a benchmark developed by taking the average cost of doing business in U.S. locations.

Read the article here:

Atlanta's a great place to do business.....

[krazeeboi]

No surprise there; neither is DFW. Didn't expect to see Tampa listed, though.

[ironchapman]

That Atlanta would rank so high among US cities, or even world cities, on such a list really doesn't surprise me actually.

However, and I think this has been discussed elsewhere, one big barrier to drawing new businesses is the infamous traffic.