30 replies to this topic

[tampasteve]

For those that did not know, the Florida High Speed Rail Authority (FHSRA) is still around, basically keeping the studies that have been done alive. Well, they are supposedly meeting with our new Gov. Christ. Hopefully Mr. Christ will be more pro-active for rail than his predicesor. As is known, the first leg of the line would run from Tampa to Orlando. Most of the major studies have been done, so it is a matter of actually getting things moving again and then this could really happen.

Steve

[tombarnes]

I hope that Goverrnor Crist will take a more positive attitude to rapid rail than his predecessor.  I would really like to see rapid rail in South Florida, but politics will probably continue to impede development as usual.

Edited by tombarnes, 13 January 2007 - 10:48 AM.

[JRS1]

CFLA will be the big winner in this.  think about it, if they decide to do the first line and test it to see whether it works before doing the line to Miami, if it doesn't pass muster for whatever reason (ridership; money), CFLA will still have that line running betwee Tampa and Orlando.

[tampasteve]

I agree, but I would almost bet my house that if and when they get the first leg open that almost nothing would stop the extension to Miami. Even if the TPA/ORL line did not do great there is every reason to think  that the extension to Miami would make the ridership jump exponentially, especially between Orlando and Miami. Miami is a HUGE draw for the USA with people coming in from across the Americas, and having a easy link to Disney would be very usefull.

Steve

[prahaboheme]

^Yes, in fact, I have always thought the first leg of rail should be between Miami and Orlando to get the ball rolling.

[tampasteve]

Miami/Orlando would possibly be a more used line in the long run; however, the ORL/TPA line would be greatly used as well, not to mention that the distance is quite shorter. TPA has a very busy airport (as does ORL) with people coming into the area for the beaches, as well as trips to ORL. Likewise, many people traveling to ORL go to the Tampa area for the beaches on day trips. It would be the most mutually benefitial of the routes to start with, again, not to mention the distance. Also, the route (running mostly along I-4) is easier to build than the MIA/ORL route. IMO

Whichever line was started though (and TPA/ORL will be first) it will be great for the state. Any form of transit other than auto is benefitial in the long run. I am greatly envious of the CRT line being built in Orlando.

Steve

[JRS1]

There are people who goto TPA over MCO and vice versa for better rates depending.

http://www.cfrail.com/

I still can't believe that ORL, of all places, is getting this.

Edited by JRS1, 15 January 2007 - 11:12 AM.

[sunshine]

I agree with the Orlando to Miami line. Would be nice if I can hop on a train to Miami at 7 in the morning and sleep my way to Miami at around 9:30am then take the baylink to Miami beach and come home at 7 at nite.

On the other hand, the line between Tampa & Orlando will probably is not really feasible in my opinion. From Orlando to Tampa is only about 50 mins drive. Most people will rather drive because of the cost factor. I am assuming that the HSR rate is not going to be cheap. A family of 5 traveling will cost more than driving. Plus you still have to find a way to go around Tampa once you reach there.  You cant even hope on HSR to see a Bucs game. It will be more convinient for people from Tampa to Orlando for a day trip since the train will go to either I drive or Disney.

Orl to Tampa line will be more feasible if Disney hope on line and start a cruise business from port of Tampa. But giving current state of CF politics, I drive hotels will be damned to share their lodging business with Tampa.

Orl to Miami line will be more feasible because of the time it will save and it will benifits tourism on both city. People that visit Orlando or Miami will stay longer to "kill two birds with one stone". Like a smaller extend of London to Paris link.

Ok enough dreaming, i am going back to work.

[tampasteve]

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On the other hand, the line between Tampa & Orlando will probably is not really feasible in my opinion. From Orlando to Tampa is only about 50 mins drive. Most people will rather drive because of the cost factor. I am assuming that the HSR rate is not going to be cheap. A family of 5 traveling will cost more than driving.

Pricing is just conjecture at this point. However, it might cost more to take the train, but one must look at the reasons to take the train over driving. 1) Potential faster travel time.  2) Airport connections made easy, and cheaper. There can be no doubt that there would be connections to the area airports. The cost of parking for long term (5-10 days) would be easily more expensive than rail - and an easier commute. 3) You are right, most people will still drive, the HSR is projected to only take about 10% of the people making trips off of the road. Probably more than 50% of that traffic will be people from Tampa going to Orlando.

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Plus you still have to find a way to go around Tampa once you reach there.  You cant even hope on HSR to see a Bucs game. It will be more convenient for people from Tampa to Orlando for a day trip since the train will go to either I drive or Disney.

The same goes for Orlando right now. Commuter rail will be  a big help to move people around the area, admittedly. But, Tampa is pushing hard for both light rail and commuter rail, it is likely that we will have a system (or potentially both) in place before HSR comes. Not to mention that it is possible Bucs Express busses would be operated on game days, the same could be said for Orlando.

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Orl to Miami line will be more feasible because of the time it will save and it will benefits tourism on both city. People that visit Orlando or Miami will stay longer to "kill two birds with one stone". Like a smaller extend of London to Paris link.

I absolutely agree with you. But, when taken comprehensively, that ORL/TPA line is the logical first step to take because of distance and overall politics. Politically there are far less cities and administrative areas to deal with on a TPA/ORL line than MIA/ORL. Practically the I-4 corridor is a perfect route to take and the ROW is already owned by the government.

Steve

Edited by tampasteve, 15 January 2007 - 12:36 PM.

[sunshine]

If people from Tampa come to Orlando with HSR for the attraction, I-drive and disney public transportation is easier than Tampa system since most of the stuff to do is on I drive which are connected by I trolley and other public transportation (a lot of tourist use this to get around). But if u are planning to go to downtown, you can forget about it. But this might change, giving the timeline of our commuter rail.

Idrive politic is way more complicated than anything else, Disney vs everybody and hotels vs local. If the HSR gonna lower the profits of the hotels, you can be assured that Rosen will kill the HSR.
If Disney have to share it customers with other parks, they will just kill the HSR, which was happended back then before the HSR was strucked down by the voters.
Disney want the rail line to go directly from OIA to disney and Idrive business wants it to go to Idrive first.

[cloudship]

While I am all for a rail link between Tampa and Orlando, it seems like an awfully short distance to be running a real high-speed line for. I think it makes much more sense to link Orlando and Miami first. More traffic generated, and the distance will be able to take better advantage of the higher speeds.

As for the Disney issue, at some point someone is going to have to stand up and say Disney be darned and do what's right for the city, not just Disney. There is far more to life in Orlando and Florida than the parks.

[tombarnes]

I agree with you entirely.  You, however, may tell the Mouse.  I see big problems in battling Team Rodent.

[tampasteve]

As of the most recent proposal (from 2004) Disney is out of the question. The line would follow I-4 and split to the Airport and Intermodal Transportation Plaza planned for near I Drive and the convention center.

Disney was being uncooperative in the short run. I for one am OK with not having the line gping directly to Disney. Also, here is a map with travel times and  sample fares (very reasonable if you ask me).

From www.floridabullettrain.com:

[sunshine]

I must said I am not very happy with this route even though it hits all the cities.
I think it should just be strictly about the big four. Orlando direct to Miami, Tampa to Orlando, Jax to Orlando. Then the rest can be done by commuter rail till more money are available.

It looks like a greyhound bus route that you have to stop in every place.

[neon9]

sunshine, on Jan 16 2007, 10:23 AM, said:

I must said I am not very happy with this route even though it hits all the cities.
I think it should just be strictly about the big four. Orlando direct to Miami, Tampa to Orlando, Jax to Orlando. Then the rest can be done by commuter rail till more money are available.

It looks like a greyhound bus route that you have to stop in every place.

Looks like it stops every 30 minutes to an hour, at cities with 50k+ population (+/-) that's not too bad. It's def. not Amtrak or Greyhound.
I used to travel to Tampa every other weekend, I would have taken the train in a second for 10 bucks or so. Travel time usually goes up to 2 or more hours on Friday nights.

Edited by neon9, 16 January 2007 - 09:47 AM.

[tampasteve]

I am fine with the stops except for the ones in the Greater Miami area. The West Palm, Ft. Lauderdale stops can easily be serviced by Tri-Rail, the HSR is overkill for an area that currently has passenger rail service, IMHO.

You can see that the lines are basically following the Interstate sytem. Tampa South goes on I-75 though to Miami, Tampa to Orlando goes on I-4, Orlando to Miami I-95, and Miami North I-95. When it is thought of that way it kind of makes sense to make stops in areas with more dense populations. With these routes it would be more likely to be used by locals as well as tourists., IMO.

Steve

[sunshine]

How come the HSR is so slow?

Do we define HSR's speed differently from Japan or China?

Ok I am going to answer my own question

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from High speed rail)

High-speed rail is public transport by rail at speeds in excess of 200 km/h (124 mph).

[tampasteve]

It is not really that slow, it just depends on the route you are looking at. From Tampa to Ft. Myers it is only 1hr 7min, I know that for me to drive that distance it would be at least 2 hrs. Same thing goes for Tampa to Miami, that is just under 3hrs, I can drive it in about 5, so that is quite a time saver. Orlando to Tampa, well that is not that bad either. Remember, on this route that Orlando station is starting from the airport and goint to DT Tampa, not just the city limits. That ride is at about 1.5 hours depending on traffic.

From ORL International airport to DT Tampa is about 85 miles, that would make the average speed about 150MPH, far faster than a car, and that includes the stop time in Lakeland.

Steve

Edited by tampasteve, 16 January 2007 - 10:21 AM.

[poonther]

Cool map there tampasteve, I've never seen that one before.  I do have to call into question extending the line across TPA Bay to St. Pete and also that it shows the line going onto the Cape instead of remaining on the mainland in Brevard like the tracks do now.

I know the Northern leg up here will be the last part built, but w/G'ville and Tally's student populations plus w/all the in state traffic up here b/c of the Capitol, I believe it will be heavily used.  It shows a trip from Tally to Jax in 1.5 hours.  It takes me 2.5 to do that in a car from downtown to downtown.

Every city and region is gonna want a piece of this action.  Limiting the stops and letting regional transit take over the gaps is the key IMHO to success.

[tampasteve]

While the map shows the tracks going across Tampa Bay into St. Pete, that is not really part of the inital plan (maybe down the road though). The Tampa station is going to be either in DT Tampa, or at the I-4/I-75 interchange area (it depends if you are looking at the DOT or FHRA plans which have been developed independantly). It is more likely that at some point in the near future Tampa and St. Pete would agree on a transit option across the bay. There has been talk of a commuter rail line that would go from St. Pete up to Clearwater and then back down into DT Tampa, but that would be a long way around to get the the HSR station from St. Pete.

As for the Cape, well, I can only go by the map with my limited knowledge of that area! Any input from others around that part of the state would be appreciated though!

Steve

Edited by tampasteve, 16 January 2007 - 12:56 PM.