49 replies to this topic

[krazeeboi]

Spartan, on Feb 18 2007, 10:34 PM, said:

I think it would be more like Columbia.

I'm familiar with Columbia's historic stock but not really Augusta's. I think it might be hard to say, since Columbia had its own "great fire," although it occurred much earlier than Augusta's and a good bit of the burned structures would probably not be standing today anyway.

[Spartan]

True, and Columbia's fire was largely contained to the CBD area, and it didn't happen at such a critical juncture (from a development standpoint).

[DaltonGA]

Spartan, on Feb 18 2007, 10:34 PM, said:

Savannah is an interesting place. Its the only colonial city that I can think of with a well developed grid system by design. And more importantly, that grid system was maintained well into the 19th century when the more common subdivisions we know and hate today started becoming more common.

As someone who's never lived in Savannah, I am interested in the area in this map. When did it develop, what are the neighborhoods like there, etc... any information that anyone wants to share would be appreciated.

Ive always thought it interesting that the standard suburbs that are more common in most cities are notably less common in Savannah. Is this phenomenon due to good planning or a lack of growth during the early 20th centry?

Actually Savannah sustained some rapid growth in the 1940's and 1950's, Chatham County increased from a 1940 population of 117,970 to 188,299 in 1960, only to decline to 187,816 in 1970, and has since steadily increased to 232,048 by 2000. Savannah increased from 95,996 in 1940 to 149,245 in 1960. The bulk of the increase occurred in the city proper, but suburban growth did occur, with some annexation in the 1950's. The city dropped from 149,245 to 118,349 by 1970-fueled bywhite flight to the southern suburbs such as Windsor Forest. A major annexation program in the 1970's boosted the cities population back to 141k which has since slowly declined to 131k by 2000. However, the suburbs are relatively densely developed and close to the city boundaries. I-16 ends in the city with I-516 making an arc on the west side of the city. I-95 bypassed the city completely. As a result, the freeways were not a route that fuel suburban sprawl. The Abercorne Avenue Extension southward beyond DeRenne through Windsor Forest and Georgetown to I-95 is the largest concentration of suburban development. Oglethorpe and Savannah malls are here and Armstrong-Atlantic State University is a suburban campus from the 1960's in the Windsor Forest area. The barrier islands, marshes, and swamps have kept the residential areas densely developed.

The area on the map with Victory Drive in the north is basically the southern boundary of the city's development prior to WWII. Most of the housing stock is single-family one story ranch and bungalow style homes, smaller in the 40's and 50's constructions and larger for the 60's and later constructions. Suburban style garden apartments and townhouse apartments are scattered in the area, usually near retail areas.

It's worth noting the major population decline in the 1960's, coincides with the historic district being designated. I don't know if many older buildings had been turned into boarding homes and apartments during the previous decades, but I suspect so. The historic district renovations that started may have reduced the density of the historic district greatly and multi-family houses returned to single-family use or commercial use-shops, restaurants and inns may have displaced lower income residents as well.

Edited by DaltonGA, 20 February 2007 - 01:09 PM.

[Spartan]

Fascinating stuff!

So where is the 70's and 80's sprawl that most other cities have? Its got to be somewhere. With most other cities you can clearly see a development pattern based on the streets, but in Savannah its not as clear (except for the historic district vs other areas).

[Pillsbury]

DaltonGA, you know a lot about Savannah---thanks for the information.   It's my understanding that Savannah's metro growth stagnated a bit in the 80s.  For me, that's when Augusta's suburbs were really booming.  Columbia County was nothing but farms back then with the exception of West Lake, but that quickly changed during the 80s and early 90s.  I wonder if that has to do with Savannah's lack of suburban sprawl (that and the natural barriers of course).  

I believe Savannah has the most potential of any city outside of Atlanta.  The only negative aspect of Savannah is its high crime rate.  But of course, that never stopped Atlanta's growth.

[DaltonGA]

Basically the closest to 80's and 90's type suburban sprawl you can find in Chatham is along Abercorne(GA 204). Savannah Mall opened in 199o and some retail development is occuring along Exit 94 of I-95 and GA 204, mostly catering to I-95 travellers, hotels and restaurants. Wal-Mart is attempting to build a Supercenter near the exit in the Sandfly community, but has met with strong local opposition. The Landings at Skidaway Island is one of the few residential areas on this barrier island, a state park and the oceangraphic unit of Georgia Tech are on Skidaway and limits its development. The heaviest developed barriers are suburban Whitemarsh and Wilmington Islands which have been developing since the 80's. Continue Victory Drive eastward through Thunderbolt and across the causeway is Whitemarsh with Wilmington next. The areas east of Wilmington are marshy, Fort Pulaski National Historic site, the Tybee Island(aka Savannah Beach), a 1950's looking beach town. Little development has occured along Ogeechee Road(US 17) between I-516 and Abercorne, but the potential is there. Augusta Road(GA 21) will take you from downtown to Garden City and Port Wentworth on through the I-95 interchange and into Effingham County and the suburb of Rincon. Growth stopped in Garden City and Port Wentworth after the 1960's and the interchange hasn't been an impetus for growth in Chatham. However, Effingham is growing rapidly, particularly around Rincon. Lower real estate costs, more developable land, and easy access are fueling the growth. Effingham is somewhat inland and is not as swampy and marshy as the coastal counties and sprawlier suburban and exurban growth is more feasible. Chathams most rapidly growing areas are limited to Whitemarsh and Wilmington Islands and Georgetown along Abercorne, past Savannah Mall. US 80 west has the most potential for growth, around Bloomingdale and Pooler. The Chrysler plant was to have been built here and it is close to I-16 and I-95, and the Savannah-Hilton Head International Airport, now accessible by Pooler Parkway/Airways Avenue. The construction of Veterns Parkway along the western boundary of Hunter Army Airfield, paralelling Ogeechee hasn't yet brought development to the area between I-516 and Abercorne yet. The Liberty City area at I-516 is Savannah's poorest neighborhood and has probably been an unadmitted force behind lack of development in the area. The take off and landing patterns at the base could be detrimental to the area developing as well. A drive along the recently widdened US 17 through is still mostly rural.

Bryan County to the south has been rapidly growing like Effingham, but a large land area is marshy and swampy and inland a chunk of the county is covered by Fort Stewart. Richmond Hill has grown rapidly and the old Ford Plantation has been developed into a retail and residential area. The county seat at Pembroke has not seen any major growth, but Bryan and Effingham have the potential to be like Columbia County in the Augusta area. Springfield, the Effingham county seat,hasn't yet had the growth that Rincon is experiencing, but like Pembroke is about 25 miles from downtown Savannah.  Jasper County, SC has potential for growth being along I-95 and between Hilton Head and Savannah, but the Savannah NWR is along the north bank of the Savannah River and has been a deterent to developing Jasper County. As retirees discover the Georgia coast, hopefully Savannah will be able to lure jobs that will raise the standard of living to the cost of housing.

Edited by DaltonGA, 20 February 2007 - 01:13 PM.

[gah]

IMHO, the "problem" with threads like this is that they are totally subjective.  What "feels" the "most urban" depends entirely on the answerer's emotional reaction and how he or she defines "urban."  That said, I have to say that Augusta "feels" more "urban" to me than any of the other 2d-tier cities.  It has a more pronounced skyline and 2 (Columbia and  Aiken) fairly large (ie, > 100,000) suburban counties.  Macon has a somewhat less dramatic skyline and only one (Houston) fairly large suburban county.  Savannah seems more 19th century quaint that 21st century urban (its architecture impresses because of charm rather than height) and has no fairly large suburban county.  Columbus has the least impressive skyline of all and only one (Lee) fairly large suburban county.  

Potential is a different consideration and certainly no less subjective.  Augusta has interstate access from Atlanta to the northeast, the Masters and MCGa.  Macon has interstate connections to the coast and Florida, the cherry festival and Mercer.  Savannah has the seaport, the coast and SCAD. Columbus, tho it may not currently benefit from what the others already have, has still maintained its position as one of the preeminent 2d-tier cities.  I "feel" that that is mostly based upon being blessed with intangibles like a native blue-collar entreprenureal population that has created several locally owned enterprises (AFLAC, Synovous, Bill Heard, etc) and fairly competent government leadership.  If and when Columbus gets comparable tangible benefits, like meaningful interstate connections, expansion of CSU and Columbus Tech and development of the river (white water), then there is reason to believe that it has as much or even more potential than the others.    Again, that is simply how I "feel" and my "feelings" are certainly influenced by being a native Columbusite.

[DaltonGA]

Spartan, on Feb 19 2007, 10:32 PM, said:

Fascinating stuff!

So where is the 70's and 80's sprawl that most other cities have? Its got to be somewhere. With most other cities you can clearly see a development pattern based on the streets, but in Savannah its not as clear (except for the historic district vs other areas).

If you take your map further south of DeRenne, along Abercorn, you can see what qualifies as modern suburban development.  Also, take it east on US 80 beyond Thunderbolt to Whitemarsh and Wilmington Islands and you will see more suburban developmet. Both malls are south of DeRenne off Abercorne. The islands have marinas and condos, which are otherwise a scarce residential offering in Savannah. If you subtract the 131k in Savannah from the Chatham population of 232k, you end up with over 100k in suburban Chatham. As growth in Bryan and Effingham is more recent, Chatham is still the largest suburban population center for Savannah. It wouldn't take a major annexation to bring most of these people into Savannah as Wilmington Island, Whitemarsh Island and Georgetown are unincorporated, Census Defined Places(CDP) to be exact. Only Tybee Island, Bloomindale, Pooler, Garden City and Port Wentworth are incorporated. The Garden City-Port Wentworth area last saw major growth in the early 60's. Pooler and Bloomingdale are poised to be the next area of Chatham for growth and a galleria style mall has been proposed for the area. Chatham's coastal location results in its climate being milder than the climate a little further inland in Effinghman, Bulloch and other nearby counties and adds to the desirability of Chatham County. If the Savannah River Parkway were to be constructed, Effingham will boom like Columbia County has.

Beaufort Co., SC is the closest populated and high growth area to Savannah, Hilton Head is considered micropolitan, but will be a metropolitan area by 2010 census. If Jasper County in between the two is added to Savannah MSA, then Hilton Head will probably join the Savannah-Hinesville-Ft Stewart CSA, and become Savannah-Hilton Head Island-Hinesville CSA. Liberty County, home to Hinesville and the Ft Stewart CDP hasn't grown much in the 2000's-troops are deployed in Iran and Afghanistan and many of their spouses have returned to their hometowns, causing a small decline in Liberty's population. Bulloch County to the west of Savannah is rapidly growing, home to Statesboro and Georgia Southern University. It is classified as micropolitan and wouldn't become metropolitan before 2020 or 2030. It too could possibly be added to the Savannah CSA in 2010, but the connections are less strong, so I have my doubts.

The coastal area of Georgia is becoming desirable to retirees, some who have seen in going to Florida and others who were station along the coast while in the military. Brunswick, Savannah, Hinesville and St. Marys-Kingsland are less dependent on the military and the paper mill industry, so retirement is the biggest growth industry in the region.

Edited by DaltonGA, 20 February 2007 - 07:20 PM.

[Savboy08]

DaltonGA, on Feb 20 2007, 08:07 PM, said:

If you take your map further south of DeRenne, along Abercorn, you can see what qualifies as modern suburban development.  Also, take it east on US 80 beyond Thunderbolt to Whitemarsh and Wilmington Islands and you will see more suburban developmet. Both malls are south of DeRenne off Abercorne. The islands have marinas and condos, which are otherwise a scarce residential offering in Savannah. If you subtract the 131k in Savannah from the Chatham population of 232k, you end up with over 100k in suburban Chatham. As growth in Bryan and Effingham is more recent, Chatham is still the largest suburban population center for Savannah. It wouldn't take a major annexation to bring most of these people into Savannah as Wilmington Island, Whitemarsh Island and Georgetown are unincorporated, Census Defined Places(CDP) to be exact. Only Tybee Island, Bloomindale, Pooler, Garden City and Port Wentworth are incorporated. The Garden City-Port Wentworth area last saw major growth in the early 60's. Pooler and Bloomingdale are poised to be the next area of Chatham for growth and a galleria style mall has been proposed for the area. Chatham's coastal location results in its climate being milder than the climate a little further inland in Effinghman, Bulloch and other nearby counties and adds to the desirability of Chatham County. If the Savannah River Parkway were to be constructed, Effingham will boom like Columbia County has.

Beaufort Co., SC is the closest populated and high growth area to Savannah, Hilton Head is considered micropolitan, but will be a metropolitan area by 2010 census. If Jasper County in between the two is added to Savannah MSA, then Hilton Head will probably join the Savannah-Hinesville-Ft Stewart CSA, and become Savannah-Hilton Head Island-Hinesville CSA. Liberty County, home to Hinesville and the Ft Stewart CDP hasn't grown much in the 2000's-troops are deployed in Iran and Afghanistan and many of their spouses have returned to their hometowns, causing a small decline in Liberty's population. Bulloch County to the west of Savannah is rapidly growing, home to Statesboro and Georgia Southern University. It is classified as micropolitan and wouldn't become metropolitan before 2020 or 2030. It too could possibly be added to the Savannah CSA in 2010, but the connections are less strong, so I have my doubts.

The coastal area of Georgia is becoming desirable to retirees, some who have seen in going to Florida and others who were station along the coast while in the military. Brunswick, Savannah, Hinesville and St. Marys-Kingsland are less dependent on the military and the paper mill industry, so retirement is the biggest growth industry in the region.

I live in Savannah, so here's a slight I guess "update".  The Wal Mart has been built and has existed for about 2 years(or a little less).  There will be another target in Savannah, this time located on Victory Drive(thus will probably get more business than the one attached to Savannah Mall).  Oh, and that Galleria Mall, probably not going to happen.  They(a website regarding the developments) claimed that construction of the theater and mall broke ground in Fall 2005 or 2006.  Apparently, that was false.  It would have been nice though.  Guess that is Pooler's second dissapointment.  We seem so hopeless in our pursuit for major commercial/industrial development.  People always set up/ and propose things down here and never follow through.  I guess the people responsible for the mall and theater were distrustful of the potential of the area to bring in customers.  I am not 100% sure it has been cancelled, but I certainly have heard nothing of it anytime recently, so I'd suspect it was.  Even some of my friends that live out there know nothing of it.  What a shame.

Edited by Savboy08, 22 February 2007 - 03:24 PM.

[Kenneth Disraili-Jean]

I truely love the charm of Savannah, but Augusta in Richmond County and now Columbia County north of Richmond  County is experiencing tremendous growth, not to mention North Augusta in Aiken County in neighboring South Carolina, which is also experiencing a trememdous growth spurt and sprawling out just like metro Atlanta, and as most people in Georgia know, Augusta is Georgia's second largest metropolitan area.

Augusta like Atlanta is also experiencing many freeway enlargements, expansion of I-520 to the South Carolina line and a complete rebuilding of the I-20/I-520 interchange making it sort of like a mini Spaghetti Junction.

Also Augusta's retail is expanding with the new life style additon and expansion of Dillard's to Augusta's major regional mall Augusta Mall, and there is talk of adding possibly another mall where the abandoned Regency Mall now sits, and also several life style centers in the metro area.

And Downtown Augusta is experiencing alot of growth as well with added retail and restaurants and new condo towers proposed along the Savannah River. So I think that pretty much sums it up IMHO.