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Renatus on the Hill


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#1 jbr12

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Posted 18 February 2007 - 07:58 PM

Just saw this on WoodTV 8...

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A landmark and historic church near downtown Grand Rapids' booming Healthcare Hill is sold. The congregation is moving out, and condos could soon be moving in.

Should be interesting to see what happens when they move to the heartside.  The guy interviewed talks about the church possibly disbanding because of this

 

#2 tamias6

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Posted 18 February 2007 - 08:09 PM

That old church is a beautiful building. Sadly it looks like it has a date with the wrecking ball as the wood TV article seems to hinting at. However I hope the developer that will take ownership of this property will take care to salvage valuable parts of the building especially the stain glass windows before tearing it down.

#3 Occam

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Posted 18 February 2007 - 08:24 PM

View Posttamias6, on Feb 18 2007, 10:09 PM, said:

That old church is a beautiful building. Sadly it looks like it has a date with the wrecking ball as the wood TV article seems to hinting at. However I hope the developer that will take ownership of this property will take care to salvage valuable parts of the building especially the stain glass windows before tearing it down.

Hmm, so every time a congregation downtown falls on hard times, they'll be selling to a developer who will convert the building into a better paying use.

And then grand rapids will become a city with no churches downtown... but ringed with warehouse style churches all around the suburbs.  :-P

And just when more and more people are moving downtown... hmm

#4 jbr12

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Posted 18 February 2007 - 08:39 PM

Except this Church is moving to a warehouse already downtown... not in the suburbs

#5 joeDowntown

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Posted 18 February 2007 - 09:02 PM

It's a beautiful building. I hope they convert the church *INTO* condos.

Joe

#6 GR_Urbanist

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Posted 18 February 2007 - 09:05 PM

To put a wrecking ball to this building is just beyond careless.

We don't need condos or apartments that darn bad...

#7 GRDadof3

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Posted 18 February 2007 - 09:19 PM

It sounds like they're going to actually turn the church building into condos:

http://www.woodtv.co...y.asp?S=6106191

The new owner is planning to turn the building into apartments or condos.

It's quite an ornate looking building:

http://www.blc-grmi.org/

#8 GRDadof3

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 01:38 PM

Church exterior to be preserved, renovated

That's great news!  With this and if Broadway & 1st decides to keep that church, we may have some pretty unique condominium projects coming on line.

#9 joeDowntown

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 02:24 PM

That is great news. I would love to live in an old gothic church. That would be incredibly cool.

GRDad, I liked this quote:

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The letter cited 360 crimes, including crack cocaine use, vehicle theft, burglary, sexual assault and public urination.

"They are typical of what goes on around 250 Commerce in a year's time," the letter states. "We will need to be prepared to deal with this on a daily basis.

"As a point of comparison, our current Crescent Street location's top problem is illegal parking."

Kind of supports our opinion on S. Division Retail. ;)

Joe

#10 Rizzo

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 02:59 PM

I bet you some will jump ship in regards of relocating to the Heartside, just a hunch.

#11 markrumsey

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 03:48 PM

People should remember that the building is located in Heritage Hill, the oldest and largest residential historic district in the country. These people invented Historic Preservation and no sane developer would take them on to try to demo the building. I can definately see a high end condo "conversion" happening with its proximity to the Medical Mile (health hill?)

#12 tamias6

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 05:28 PM

I'm now more at ease about the church building's future after finding out it is in the Heritage Hill District. That bit of info curtails any chances of the old chuch being demoed.

#13 grcitydog

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 06:44 PM

As for moving to Heartside, I think that is a great idea; this will provide some more stability to the neighborhood and be a great asset to the area; and hopefully make it more appealing for more organizations and business to move there.

#14 jbr12

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 07:07 PM

I just can't seem to figure out why they are moving.  The article states the church is in need for approx $2mil in repairs.  They sold the church for $500,000 and purchased the heartside WAREHOUSE building for $1.9mil and are putting approx $800,000 in renovations to make the warehouse a usable space.  To me this doesn't make sense because they are also loosing a historic relationship with the building, many memories and what sounds like a good chunk of their congregation.

#15 joeDowntown

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 07:24 PM

I didn't think it quite added up either. Plus, the condo developer has a nice big parking lot that if I'm not mistaken could be sold off for future development at a pretty good rate (I can't imagine the church will have too many condos.

Sounds like someone's accountant needed to sharpen the pencil a bit. ;)

Joe

#16 FilmMaker

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 07:50 PM

View PostjoeDowntown, on Feb 19 2007, 08:24 PM, said:

I didn't think it quite added up either. Plus, the condo developer has a nice big parking lot that if I'm not mistaken could be sold off for future development at a pretty good rate (I can't imagine the church will have too many condos.

Sounds like someone's accountant needed to sharpen the pencil a bit. ;)

Joe
(edited and re-posted below)

Edited by FilmMaker, 20 February 2007 - 07:44 AM.


#17 GRDadof3

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 08:13 PM

Another thing to think about is that modern churches and the way worship services are done is much more laid back and needs more flexibility than an old church provides.  A lot of churches today want youth centers, which are pretty hard to add on to old churches.  They may also want large and small congregation spaces, or performance spaces with state-of-the-art acoustics, or the ability to open up/close walls or make smaller rooms for meetings, etc..  Many churches are also doing more ministry work, that might require warehouse storage space.  That's why many are moving into big box warehouses like the old Meijer office on Plainfield or the old Grandville Mall.  You just can't do those kinds of things in buildings built 100 years ago in historic areas with strict design guidelines for additions.
(A family member of mine does a lot of church architecture)

#18 GRguy

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 08:34 PM

maybe the church just wanted to move to Heartside to open a soup kitchen, I hear that's where all their clients would be...

#19 GRFuture

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 06:35 AM

"Plus, the condo developer has a nice big parking lot that if I'm not mistaken could be sold off for future development at a pretty good rate"

I am pretty sure that the $500k is buying only the actual church building and that the congregation is still willing to sell the parking lot separately (at $3.4 Mil +).  While land is going for a good rate in the Medical corridor, I believe that they will not get someone to pay that amount for some time.  Especially since half of the parking lot is in the Heritage Hill district which could hamper efforts to develop the lot commercially.

#20 FilmMaker

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 09:09 AM

If, as the GR Pres article seems to indicate, this move is based on a desire to reach out to the under-served in our midst – then I am hopeful that the members of Bethlehem have given this adequate, prayerful thought and remain committed to their goal.

If this decision is based on financial survival, then some of the numbers and math suggested in this thread give me reason to be very worried.  Unfortunately, many churches are led by small groups of inexperienced part time volunteers who are simply ill-equipped to wrangle decisions at this scale – and who can be easily distracted from their core mission as an organization.  But again, if Bethlehem’s aspirations are indeed to serve – then I am hopeful that they can accomplish their goals.

That being said, this situation is arguably unique given the urban nature of their future location – and I think we need to be very careful when we start to discuss this instance as evidence of a much larger architectural trend.

GrDad’s comments regarding flexibility are valid, but I would argue that flexibility does not, by itself, warrant the abandonment of architectural excellence.  I am personally of the opinion that this trend towards “pole barn churches” is part of a larger, societal trend toward watered-down theology and doctrine.  In very general terms, as congregations compromise their theology and abandon any sense of formality in their worship (or places of worship) they are following the same path that brought us Costco and Sam’s Club instead of more “meaningful” and “committed” presences like local grocers and hardware stores who fully understood the full breadth of their role in the community.  It simply wreaks of the same “big box” homogenization we’ve seen on the retail side.  

Do churches really want to go down the same path that has created our society’s current attitude of “ I don’t care where I buy it or what impact it has on my community – as long as it is the cheapest price on earth”?

I do not wish to debate religion here, rather I think it is absolutely relevant to remind ourselves that churches have played one of, if not the most, significant role in architecture in any part of the world for millenniums.  It wasn’t until high-rise architecture was engineered that we experienced buildings taller than churches in any village, town or city on the planet.  These places of worship have long represented and continue to be the primary identity of villages and neighborhoods around the world.

While I am not Catholic, I find it worth noting that despite some of its internal conflicts, the Catholic Church continues to remain committed to creating and preserving appropriately scaled architecture as a symbol of its centuries-long presence and collective faith around the globe - and as a strong statement of its fervent commitment to its original doctrine.  At the very least, they have not willfully decided to abandon their theology and community responsibility in exchange for filling a warehouse with “drive-through, fast-food” parishioners who value convenience over substance.

I am not saying that all congregations that worship in warehouses are evil.  Rather I am saying that when we focus on our society’s architectural legacy we need to be very careful not to let secular or behavioral whims distract us.  To sit idly by and watch as a proliferation of “pole barn churches” dummy-down religion’s role in creating long-term architectural value is to encourage the ongoing decay of ours – and any – culture in general.  We need to be mindful that it is no accident that places of worship compromise the vast majority of all we have left to study from past generations archeologically.  Will we be proud if future generations have nothing more than the ancient remains of strip malls from which to learn about our cultural and spiritual values?

Quite simply, it is absolutely possible to create flexible worship space and still preserve and/or create worthwhile architecture that appropriately celebrates any religion’s multi-generational role in a community.

On an entirely lighter note: has anyone else noticed that the developer’s name on this project is “Pentecost”?   Pentecost is arguably one of the most significant holidays on nearly any church’s calendar.  That is an incredible coincidence that still has me truly puzzled.




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