70 replies to this topic

[krazeeboi]

OK, we all know the South isn't perfect. Most of our cities, particularly the ones that can now be classified as "boomtowns," grew up during the age of the automobile and lack the density and urbanity of its previously-developed counterparts; we know this. However, does it appear as though the South's stellar economic performance as of late has made it the target of jealous insults and such? I want to go beyond what we see and read on messageboards such as UP to what the "average Joe" may be saying.

[Skyliner]

Most (not all) of the negative commentary probably comes from an impulsive mentality bred and preserved from the post Civil War era.  Well educated (and experienced) individuals view the "New South" as being more progressive.

[Justiceham]

krazeeboi, on Mar 13 2007, 03:17 AM, said:

However, does it appear as though the South's stellar economic performance as of late has made it the target of jealous insults and such?

Ofcourse it has, I agree that the ignorant will continute speak condescending things about the South as though it is some separate entity from the U.S. despite the fact that they have never lived here. Cruising by on the interstates only gives you a glimpse of what a city or town beholds, it is a window. You have to go inside the house to find out what it's all about. However, I think there are those who are not ready to move forward. Progress happens, big business happens, life happens. I believe that some are afraid of losing values or a sense of place. I also believe some feel we are losing our history and are also worried that the big cities we are creating will someday end up like those that while in their prime changed America, but sank shortly thereafter. Right now the sky is the limit for cities across America as we return to them and embrace their charm and character.

[Arkansas Student]

I think people like to insult the South because they think it makes for good comedy.

For instance, Family Guy takes some particularly harsh digs at the South, in my opinion. I don't know if the creator is from down here and is joking from an insider's point of view, or if he bases his comedy on his perception from the outside.

Perhaps this doesn't relate to economic performance, but on the other hand people's perceived image of the South (or New South) will affect their inclination to do business with us.

[davidzLA]

Of course not.  Was there a specific circumstance in the media etc. that make you think of it?

"People" "make fun of" the South because it's easy, not because they're impressed with contemporary economic growth they probably know nothing about.  I seriously doubt any other region's residents are "just jealous."  There's a long, long list of Southern-specific preconceived notions that can trigger an easy joke.  Just set up some situation with banjo, barefoot, slavery, sweet tea, chain gangs, segregation, fire hoses, marching across bridges, cotton, plantations, Dukes of Hazzard, moonshine, country music et al et al et al et al, then knock it down and BLAM, laughs, because it fits the audience's preconceived notion.  The reason you don't hear many jokes about the Pacific Northwest is because that list is much, much shorter.  To repeat, the South is an easy target.

I'd say the question is evidence of a South with an inferiority complex.  People make fun of Boston, New York, L.A., etc. too but by and large, residents there don't care or obsess about it.  I guess the very patient education of visitors and viewers over the long term will help with generating more up-to-date notions and stereotypes (like say, "Designing Women".)

[Arkansas Student]

davidzLA, on Mar 20 2007, 03:45 PM, said:

I'd say the question is evidence of a South with an inferiority complex.  People make fun of Boston, New York, L.A., etc. too but by and large, residents there don't care or obsess about it.

Would you rather the South have a superiority complex? That's what got us in to trouble a few times back in the day. When you've been beat down for as many years as the region has (and, yes, we deserved some of the ridicule) it's hard to feel good about yourself.

Southerners love to make fun of Bostonians, New Yorkers, LA-La-Landers and the like. So I guess we're all just trading punches on this crazy blue sphere flying through the cosmos, right?

[Dale]

davidzLA, on Mar 20 2007, 02:45 PM, said:

Of course not.  Was there a specific circumstance in the media etc. that make you think of it?

"People" "make fun of" the South because it's easy, not because they're impressed with contemporary economic growth they probably know nothing about.  I seriously doubt any other region's residents are "just jealous."  There's a long, long list of Southern-specific preconceived notions that can trigger an easy joke.  Just set up some situation with banjo, barefoot, slavery, sweet tea, chain gangs, segregation, fire hoses, marching across bridges, cotton, plantations, Dukes of Hazzard, moonshine, country music et al et al et al et al, then knock it down and BLAM, laughs, because it fits the audience's preconceived notion.  The reason you don't hear many jokes about the Pacific Northwest is because that list is much, much shorter.  To repeat, the South is an easy target.

I'd say the question is evidence of a South with an inferiority complex.  People make fun of Boston, New York, L.A., etc. too but by and large, residents there don't care or obsess about it.  I guess the very patient education of visitors and viewers over the long term will help with generating more up-to-date notions and stereotypes (like say, "Designing Women".)

I know I like to make fun of Northern hypocrisy. Hey, fair is fair.

[DruidCity]

I've heard much harsher jokes/superiority complex from some so-called "New South" types about
Alabama than from those in other regions.

When I told someone in Florida I was from Alabama, they looked at me like something
they'd scrape off the bottom of their shoe. By contrast, when I took a road trip through the midwest,
I didn't hear any negative comments.

[Nathan]

this has nothing to do with the topic, but just for the record, Atlanta is the largest city in the South excluding immigrants.

[suburban george3]

Nathan, on Mar 20 2007, 08:50 PM, said:

this has nothing to do with the topic, but just for the record, Atlanta is the largest city in the South excluding immigrants.

from the US Census website:
City populations(estimates as of 7/1/04.  rankings are national)

4. Houston, TX 2,012,626
8. San Antonio, TX 1,236,249
9. Dallas, TX 1,210,393
13. Jacksonville, FL 777,704
16. Austin, TX 681,804
17. Memphis, TN 671,929
19. Fort Worth, TX 603,337
20. Charlotte, NC 594,359
21. El Paso, TX 592,099
26. Louisville, KY 556,332 (combined w/Jefferson Co.)
28. Nashville, TN 546,719 (combined w/Davidson Co.)
35. New Orleans, LA 462,269
40. Virginia Beach, VA 440,098
42. Atlanta, GA 419,122

As you can see, Atlanta is not the biggest Southern city.  


Metro populations from the 2000 census.

9. Dallas-Fort Worth, TX CMSA 5,221,801
10. Houston-Galveston-Brazoria, TX CMSA 4,669,571
11. Atlanta, GA MSA 4,112,198

So, if you include TX in your definition of "Southern", Atlanta doesn't make the biggest metro either.  However, it's ranking is much higher.  Besides, this isn't a pop thread so let's get back to Southern Jealousy!

[davidzLA]

Arkansas Student, on Mar 20 2007, 01:58 PM, said:

Would you rather the South have a superiority complex?

No complex at all would work, it doesn't have to be either/or.  Of course this is a very broad generalization.  I'd say the South is less monolithic today than at any point in time.

Quote

Southerners love to make fun of Bostonians, New Yorkers, LA-La-Landers and the like. So I guess we're all just trading punches on this crazy blue sphere flying through the cosmos, right?

Absolutely.   So this New Yorker, an Angeleno and a guy from Boston walk into a bar...

[krazeeboi]

davidzLA, on Mar 20 2007, 04:45 PM, said:

"People" "make fun of" the South because it's easy, not because they're impressed with contemporary economic growth they probably know nothing about.

I disagree. The South is getting a lot of positive exposure these days. While the "best of" lists/rankings are definitely subjective, the South tops several of these lists. We like to discuss those things here in detail, but these lists are published in media that reach a very large audience. Several cities in the North and Midwest, once the nation's premier regions in terms of economic and population growth, are declining, while several Southern cities are on the up and up in a big way. While many of the stereotypes about the South stubbornly persist, we've come a long way in terms of our image, and less and less people think of Deliverance when they think of the South.

[monsoon]

I honestly don't know what there is to be jealous about.   If you go to another country, say in Europe and Asia, and ask them what cities do you want to visit in America, and I can bet you there won't be one city in the South mentioned.    Our economic growth is based on the exploitation of cheap land, cheap labor, and laws that put the needs of business ahead of the individual.   The endless sprawl of Walmarts, fast food, and big box retails surrounded by cheap cul de sac housing is nothing to brag about and that is in the good parts.   Get 50 miles off of an interstate and you find some of the worst economic despair in the modern world and it is getting worse.    It's a land populated by Mrs Mini Van and Mr Redneck who look down on each other and are clueless about everyone else.    

Someone mentioned that Atlanta is the largest city, which when one examines the facts, one finds that only 10% of that metro actually lives in the city and everyone else lives around the vast endless sprawl of that metro area that spreads over 10,000 sq miles.   This is a small town surrounded by a disaster in sustainability.  


Sure there are pockets where it is good in the South, but there is so much bad it is far far drowned out.   Most Southerners won't listen to this as they travel to the next newest mall or gawk at the next tallest unneeded skyscraper choosing instead to believe they live in the best part of the world.   UrbanPlanet is one of the few places where you will be presented with thoughts such as this.  

BTW, UrbanPlanet is owned and operated by Southerners.

[Dale]

I daresay that the VAST percentage of the Earth's inhabitants are not preoccupied with urban form. For them, where they live is simply where they live. Moreover, there are many things other than urban form which people come to value. And of the four Japanese and Russian exchange students my wife have hosted over the years, all were starry-eyed while in Florida, and at least two of the Japanese students did not want to return to Japan. One of them was from Tokyo, the other Yokohama.

[Nathan]

suburban george, to be clear with you, I was talking about metro areas and the keyword was excluding immigrants, Atlanta is the biggest Metro area in the south (only pertaining to native born americans that consider Atlanta or any other city their first home). my point was to create discussion on native born Americans in the southern cities. so like I said, above Houston, Dallas and Miami, Atlanta is the largest city in the south excluding immigrant populations. It's Just something to think about.

[teshadoh]

Nathan, on Mar 21 2007, 12:07 PM, said:

suburban george, to be clear with you, I was talking about metro areas and the keyword was excluding immigrants, Atlanta is the biggest Metro area in the south (only pertaining to native born americans that consider Atlanta or any other city their first home). my point was to create discussion on native born Americans in the southern cities. so like I said, above Houston, Dallas and Miami, Atlanta is the largest city in the south excluding immigrant populations. It's Just something to think about.

I still have no idea how you are basing your case that more 'native born americans' live in Atlanta metro than Houston, Dallas or Miami.  Especially considering - what I am assuming you are basing non-native americans as Hispanic, many Hispanics in Houston descend from multiple generations of Hispanics.  So - provide some methodology on how you were able to determine that Atlanta has the most 'native americans' & lastly - what again is your point?

Lastly - southern cities are known internationally, in both third world countries & western europe.  Family connections go very deep, & word spreads within international communities.  Especially considering the US is still a major goal for many around the world & the days of Ellis Island are long gone.  Having worked with people from Africa, Asia & Europe - just in Atlanta's case, the city is known by many.  Certainly Miami, Dallas & Houston are too.

Edited by teshadoh, 21 March 2007 - 12:27 PM.

[Pillsbury]

Yeah, I'm trying to see how the number of natives in Atlanta relates to Southern jealousy.

[Dale]

Speaking of Atlanta, a few years back, Fortune Magazine cobbled together an extensive survey gauging standard-of-living across the globe. They factored in such things as local costs, income, amenities, mobility and such. They determined that a suburban Atlantan enjoyed the highest standard-of-living in the world.

If any close to being the case, there's a basis for some jealousy.

[monsoon]

Dale, on Mar 21 2007, 03:14 PM, said:

Speaking of Atlanta, a few years back, Fortune Magazine cobbled together an extensive survey gauging standard-of-living across the globe. ....

These grocery store  rags are pretty useless for determining anything of that nature.  They have a best of every month and almost every city in the south as been on one of these lists one time or the other.

[lammius]

I think it has more to do with exploiting established stereotypes than "jealousy."  Apart from a family vacation to Disney World or Virginia Beach, Joe Average (non-southerner) probably hasn't explored the South and knows very little about it aside from what he hears joked about on TV.  Being a New Jersey resident, I get the "oh yeah, which exit?" joke a lot.  Most often it's told by someone in California who has never even been to NJ.  Manhattanites, too, like to make NJ the butt of their jokes, and believe me, they're hardly jealous!!  

Stereotypes are old and they die hard, especially since they're easy fodder for a quick laugh from an audience.  Even if all parts of the country continue to assimilate into one big blob of sameness, the Northeast will for a long time be known for being rude, the South for being redneckish, the Midwest for being flyover, and the West Coast for being the land of fruits nuts and vegetables.