111 replies to this topic

[motonenterprises]

Greenville County's population has grown to 401,174 in 4 years! Here is the link.link

[gsupstate]

I think this is the same (or least related) article that can be found at:

http://www.greenvill...05041462578.htm

What I really found interesting about the article is that between 2000 and 2004, Greenville county had an international immigration rate double that of any other South Carolina county.  Some posters continuously question Greenville's diversity.  This fact challenges that notion.  Greenville is obviously heading toward diversity in the population base, twice as fast as any other place in SC.

[jfl25]

This is great news for Greenville lets keep growing.

[UrbanSoutherner]

gsupstate, on Apr 15 2005, 06:49 AM, said:

I think this is the same (or least related) article that can be found at:

http://www.greenvill...05041462578.htm

What I really found interesting about the article is that between 2000 and 2004, Greenville county had an international immigration rate double that of any other South Carolina county.  Some posters continuously question Greenville's diversity.  This fact challenges that notion.  Greenville is obviously heading toward diversity in the population base, twice as fast as any other place in SC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I certainly would not doubt that Greenville could have the most diverse international community in the state given the amount of foreign-owned (especially European) industries there. I think when people talk of Greenville's lack of diversity, they are mainly thinking about the dramatically lower African-American population there. I have clients in the Greenville-Spartanburg area, and I deal with people from Europe at those clients. But it is still pretty lily-white compared with Columbia or Charleston. If you look at the non-Caucasian percentage of the population of Greenville vs. Columbia or Charleston, there is not much comparison. The city proper of Greenville is pretty diverse, but that only covers a very small intown area. This is all just the historic development patterns in the state. The slave based economy was stronger in the Lowcountry, Pee Dee, and Midlands than in the Upstate. The urban areas of the Upstate developed as textile centers in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. And unlike the tobacco industry in Winston-Salem and Durham in NC, the textile industry excluded African-Americans in all but the most menial of jobs. So, there just has never been as large a black population in the Upstate as elsewhere in SC. That is why I personally would still say Greenville is less diverse overall than Columbia or Charleston.

Edited by UrbanSoutherner, 16 April 2005 - 08:08 AM.

[Skyliner]

It is not the color of skin, but the quality of life that matters.

Until someone brings up this subject, I never think about it. However when it is brought up in such rediculous circumstanses as "population diversity," I wonder why we waste so much time and energy separating good people simply by the color of their skin rather than focussing on improving the whole community, which is a community of thousands of great people who get along regardless of what the pressuring media says.  This is JMO.

[UrbanSoutherner]

Skyliner, on Apr 16 2005, 01:05 PM, said:

It is not the color of skin, but the quality of life that matters.

Until someone brings up this subject, I never think about it. However when it is brought up in such rediculous circumstanses as "population diversity," I wonder why we waste so much time and energy separating good people simply by the color of their skin rather than focussing on improving the whole community, which is a community of thousands of great people who get along regardless of what the pressuring media says.  This is JMO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What exactly is the "pressuring media"? Nobody has said that race matters per se. The issue is diversity of the population. And there just is absolutely no way that Greenville has a more diverse population than Columbia or Charleston. It is a much more homogeneous mix ethnically, racially, etc. Nobody has said that this is negative or positive. It is just the way things are. If someone prefers a more diverse environment (say you are an African-American who wants a more vibrant black presence), it may matter to you. But it is not ultimately a matter of good or bad. It just is. I personally like diversity and think that it makes a city more interesting. But it is not some PC rant or anything. There are indeed places that are pretty homogeneous that are nice places to live. But that still does not make their population diverse, and that was the issue.

I do not think diversity is a moral issue as such. I think it is a pragmatic one. In my opinion, the most important cities historically have been places of energy, dynamism, and new ideas. Why is that? Christianity did not start out in small towns. It started out as a urban movement in the biggest and most cosmopolitan cities of the Mediterranean world at the time. Why is that? I think the answer to these questions is the mixing of different types of people--i.e., diversity. That breeds greater openess to new ideas. African-Americans may see some things differently from European-Americans based on their experiences. That is not bad or good, it just is. Gay people may see some things differently than straight people based on their experiences. Again, that is not bad or good, it just is. Conservative Christians may see some things differently than Liberal Christians based on their experiences. Once again, that is not bad or good, it just is. French people may see some things differently than Americans based on their experiences. Yet again, that is not good or bad, it just is. It is not that being African-American or gay or Conservative Christian is all that a person is. This is not group-thought I am arguing. It is rather that any of these things certainly contributes to that person's identity and experiences in life along with a lot of other things. And that affects a person's beliefs, attitudes, and outlook. Small towns without diversity do not allow people to mix with others who are different as readily as cities. Why is that important? Because, it helps our growth and maturity as human beings. Because it broadens our reality. Because we live in an extremely diverse global world now. Because it encourages questioning and new ideas. That is a major role that cities play in their respective societies. They are innovators of new ideas, new social realities, and new economies. And it is the dynamism of diversity that encourages that. That is a major reason why I fascinated with urbanization. That is a major reason why I live in a large city. Again, it is not a moral issue. It is a very real pragmatic one. It is a vital component of any truly important and great city that impacts the larger society.

Edited by UrbanSoutherner, 16 April 2005 - 07:25 PM.

[Spartan]

UrbanSoutherner, on Apr 16 2005, 06:37 PM, said:

And there just is absolutely no way that Greenville has a more diverse population than Columbia or Charleston. It is a much more homogeneous mix ethnically, racially, etc. Nobody has said that this is negative or positive. It is just the way things are.

Small towns without diversity do not allow people to mix with others who are different as readily as cities. Why is that important? Because, it helps our growth and maturity as human beings.

It is a vital component of any truly important and great city that impacts the larger society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You say nobody speaks positively or negatively about it, yet you go on to say that having diversity makes you a better person, and you imply that a lack of diversity is a bad thing with your small town reference. You aren't the first person to do this.

You say Greenville has no/less diversity. I say that is crap. You take racial diversity and put it on some kind of pedestal. Have you ever been to Vermont? I haven't. I have met people that said they had never seen a black person until they came down here. There are places up north that have zero diverstiy, and yet the north is portayed as some kind of beacon of light for our nation. What the hell. I was born and raised in Spartanburg and I know numbers don't mean a damn thing when it comes to diversity. I encouter differnt races anytime I go out to anywhere. There are all sorts of races mixed together, and it is not right to claim one place is better just for having more of a certain race than another. You can't just say Columbia is a better place just because there are more black people (aka diversity) there. Why does nobody talk about the diversity in Texas? They have a large  Mexican population there. If i'm not mistaken, thats diversity.

I am not trying to talk down on any race here or imply that diversity is bad. My point is that I don't think its right to say one place is better or worse for having more of a certain race.

Most people can choose where they want to live. Nobody has a gun to anyone else's head forcng them to stay where they are.

[motonenterprises]

People are brainwashed with all of this diversity crap. I personally think Greenville is very diversed and I am black. Sometimes you must step outside of your little box and look at things from outside in. While Columbia does have more black I still prefer Greenville. No race or diversity bull crap was used to make my decision. The quality of life and things available were.

[Skyliner]

Thank you motonenterprises!

[krazeeboi]

If anything, I hope we've learned that the term "better" is certainly subjective. Also, while Columbia and Charleston may be "better" cities in terms of diversity, quantitatively speaking, this does not necessarily make them "better" cities overall. I don't think anyone was saying this, but I just didn't want to leave it unsaid. But I believe that the basis of the statement, "Greenville is less diverse than Columbia and Charleston" was quantitative in nature, and not qualitative (at least racially speaking).

However, to get back to the root of this whole diversity discussion, UrbanSoutherner simply remarked that for the most part, the increase in the diversity of Greenville's population primarily stems from an influx of non-US, European (white) residents, not those of African, Asian/Pacific Islander, or Latino descent (American or not). If anything is to be questioned here, it is the accuracy of this statement. So let's deal with the premise first, and the conclusion will work itself out.

Not to mention that Greenville County's hesitancy in designating MLK Day an official holiday doesn't help boost its image as a "diverse" place. Again, this goes to perception, and not necessarily reality.

Edited by krazeeboi, 16 April 2005 - 10:52 PM.

[motonenterprises]

Do your research. MLK day in Greenville has nothing to do with diversity or race. Its all politics! Similar to the flag issue in Columbia. Step out of the box and look in. More to things than what you see when you don't consider or research all of the facts. This coming from a black guy at that! Most of us have been so brainwashed and can't see out of our little box.

[Skyliner]

krazeeboi, on Apr 16 2005, 11:49 PM, said:

...However, to get back to the root of this whole diversity discussion, UrbanSoutherner simply remarked that for the most part, the increase in the diversity of Greenville's population primarily stems from an influx of non-US, European (white) residents, not those of African, Asian/Pacific Islander, or Latino descent (American or not). If anything is to be questioned here, it is the accuracy of this statement. So let's deal with the premise first, and the conclusion will work itself out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, Greenville has an incredibly large Latino population!  Some parts of the suburbs are almost entirely "taken over" by Latino stores and businesses.  Shop the Wal-Mart on White Horse Road and tell me there isn't a diverse population here!

Regarding the Asian population, that was another misconception because there are many here with many more on the way.  The largest company from Asia currently in Greenville is Hitachi.  There are several other companies you may be less familiar with, but no less important.  Also look to Greenwood and the massive FujiFilm plant.  Where do those business leaders live?  Now for the new Asian residents;  If you live in Greenville (most of the forum contributors don't), you have heard and seen the Global Trade Center coming just next to I-85 and ICAR.  This center is entirely devoted to the addition of several Chinese companies to the U.S.

[UrbanSoutherner]

motonenterprises, on Apr 17 2005, 05:53 AM, said:

MLK day in Greenville has nothing to do with diversity or race. Its all politics!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Explain please. This is one that really paints a bad picture of Greenville in my mind. I cannot fathom any reason why a county council this day and age (perhaps in 1970 or 1980 or even 1990, but the 2000s...) would have such a problem with MLK day. It strikes me as truly reactionary in the worst way. If it is not about race or race-baiting politics, what is it about? And yes it is just some politicians, but they are elected by a majority of the people. When the Mecklenburg County NC governing body went on a tirade about a gay-themed play and other things a few years ago, a number of them were subsequently voted out of office. I would be glad to listen to another interpretation of the events surrounding the MLK deal. Motonenterprises, I respect your opinions. I admire that you have the self-awareness and security in who you are to not let this crap bother you. But can you see why a lot of African-Americans in SC might just take offense. Can you see why the national press on that would be rather negative. Greenville has a reputation as being less friendly to diversity. I did not make it up. And it has probably been overblown. But reputations usually occur for a reason. There is not an anti-Greenville fairey flying around sprinkling anti-Greenville dust around. And the media is not that liberal these days (have you watched Fox News lately). The reputation comes from things like this fight over the MLK day. Regardless of the real story of it all, it looks absolutely horrible to others outside Greenville. Believe me--it looks horrible. Maybe they are being oversensitive. Maybe they are overblowing it, but that is the reality. But it seems to me that the county council is either playing race-baiting games or is incredibly oblivious to the county's reputation nationally. To its credit, the City of Greenville contradicts the county on many of these issues, but then it has a more diverse--oops, there's that word again--population. You think that there is any correlation there? But really, I do want to here your explanation of what the MLK day flap was about if not race or race-baiting politics. And I will try to be open minded to an alternative explanation.

Edited by UrbanSoutherner, 17 April 2005 - 11:55 AM.

[UrbanSoutherner]

Spartan, on Apr 16 2005, 09:43 PM, said:

You say nobody speaks positively or negatively about it, yet you go on to say that having diversity makes you a better person, and you imply that a lack of diversity is a bad thing with your small town reference. You aren't the first person to do this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Spartan. This is valid point. I did speak subjectively and betray my bias.

Spartan, on Apr 16 2005, 09:43 PM, said:

You say Greenville has no/less diversity. I say that is crap. You take racial diversity and put it on some kind of pedestal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My apologies if I focused too much on race. But in my experience, when people say Greenville has less diversity than Columbia or Charleston, race is the primary thing on their mind. The difference in the racial balances between Greenville and its two peer cities is rather large (even if you include Latino or Asian populations). However, you apparently missed my references to other points of diversity other than race, like sexuality and religion. Diversity is a much bigger thing than race.

Spartan, on Apr 16 2005, 09:43 PM, said:

Have you ever been to Vermont? I haven't. I have met people that said they had never seen a black person until they came down here. There are places up north that have zero diverstiy, and yet the north is portayed as some kind of beacon of light for our nation. What the hell. I was born and raised in Spartanburg and I know numbers don't mean a damn thing when it comes to diversity. I encouter differnt races anytime I go out to anywhere. There are all sorts of races mixed together, and it is not right to claim one place is better just for having more of a certain race than another. You can't just say Columbia is a better place just because there are more black people (aka diversity) there. Why does nobody talk about the diversity in Texas? They have a large  Mexican population there. If i'm not mistaken, thats diversity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not sure where all this North vs. South stuff came from. My post was about urbanization in general and several SC cities in specific. But for the record, I would totally agree that Vermont is highly nondiverse racially. It may be in other ways, but I am not familiarly enough with the state to say. Vermont of course is also not exactly urban. I also agree that Texas is diverse racially. And I fully agree with your statement about the North not being a "beacon of light for our nation." As a southerner, I would say that the South has come further in dealing with race than the North in my opinion overall. But we southerners have to stop being so defensive every time race is discussed. Just because someone brings up race does mean it is some Yankees trying to restart the War of Northern Aggression.

Spartan, on Apr 16 2005, 09:43 PM, said:

You say Greenville has no/less diversity. I say that is crap.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Forgive me, but I can only go on what I know and have experienced. And in my time in SC, Greenville certainly has felt less diverse than Columbia and Charleston. And not just racially, but also politically, religiously, etc. So, please present another view for me to consider. In what specific ways is the population of greater Greenville as or more diverse than that of Columbia or Charleston. Be as liberal with the meaning of diversity as you would like. I have seen some numbers to indicate that the Latino population in the Greenville MSA may be slightly higher than in the other MSAs, so that can be one. More???

Edited by UrbanSoutherner, 17 April 2005 - 12:04 PM.

[Spartan]

Diversity may indeed rest in one's perception of it. Growing up where I did, I would say that things are very diverse. Just as much as they are here in Columbia. My point in all of my ranting was that one can't just pick out one thing like blacks, or gays, or latinos and claim that a lack of one or the other makes it a less diverse place. I am not saying you did that urban southerner, but many people do.

Personally, I think diversity is meaningless. You should take a place for what it is, and if it happens to be green then like it for that reason. Don't dislike it becuase there isn't very much purple.

[krazeeboi]

motonenterprises, on Apr 17 2005, 06:53 AM, said:

Do your research. MLK day in Greenville has nothing to do with diversity or race. Its all politics! Similar to the flag issue in Columbia. Step out of the box and look in. More to things than what you see when you don't consider or research all of the facts. This coming from a black guy at that! Most of us have been so brainwashed and can't see out of our little box.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's all well and good, "my brotha," but just re-read the very last sentence in my previous post. It's all about PERCEPTION. Most people will not research the issue; they will simply take what's covered in the media as gospel, and this makes a difference in how an area is viewed. And I'm simply talking about the way things are, not the way they should be. It's cool to be ideal, but don't forget to be real at the same time. Therefore, my original point stands. The MLK Day issue, whether directly connected to politics, diversity, racism, or whatever, did not look good on Greenville. That's my only point.

[motonenterprises]

krazeeboi, on Apr 17 2005, 08:49 PM, said:

That's all well and good, "my brotha," but just re-read the very last sentence in my previous post. It's all about PERCEPTION. Most people will not research the issue; they will simply take what's covered in the media as gospel, and this makes a difference in how an area is viewed. And I'm simply talking about the way things are, not the way they should be. It's cool to be ideal, but don't forget to be real at the same time. Therefore, my original point stands. The MLK Day issue, whether directly connected to politics, diversity, racism, or whatever, did not look good on Greenville. That's my only point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First of all enough with the stereotyping. It is not neccessary to call me "brotha" as we are not brothers and you don't know me. I speak correct english, no need for the ebonics! I don't expect you to see my point and I really don't care. You said, "most people will not research the issue". Its not my problem that most are caught in a matrix of sorts and can't seem to get out of it. You said, "don't forget to be real at the same time". What is real? Real is different for different people, depends on how you are programmed. This petty stuff that bothers the average person doesn't bother me. I have shed most of the brainwashing from politics, government, etc. You said, "The MLK Day issue, whether directly connected to politics, diversity, racism or whatever, did not look good on Greenville." So the flag issue in Columbia that caused boycotts all over SC looks great on Columbia right? Which issue is really worse? For some reason 401,174 people in SC chose Greenville which is still by far more than any other county in the state.

[krazeeboi]

[quote name='motonenterprises' date='Apr 18 2005, 02:55 AM']First of all enough with the stereotyping. It is not neccessary to call me "brotha" as we are not brothers and you don't know me. I speak correct english, no need for the ebonics![/quote]

Didn't mean to offend you at all, and I apologize if I did. I just want you to realize that you aren't the only Black man capable of "thinking outside the box" and escaping "brainwashing," I'm right there with you (yes, I'm Black)....and I'm still not sure exactly what the reference is in those buzzwords, but moving on...

[quote]I don't expect you to see my point and I really don't care. [/quote]

I totally see your point; it's just that I'm representing the viewpoint of many who live outside of the Greenville metro (and even some who live there). I'm sure this isn't the first time you've heard stuff like this. Like I said, this may not be the way things should be, it's the way things are.

And if you REALLY didn't care, you wouldn't have mustered up a response.  

[quote]You said, "most people will not research the issue". Its not my problem that most are caught in a matrix of sorts and can't seem to get out of it.[/quote]

No it's not your "problem," but as I said, that's the way things are, and when the only thing that surfaces is "Greenville County votes to not recognize MLK Day," what type of images does that conjure up? Sure it may be a political issue, but these politicians don't get in office by simply wishing. People elect the folks who most closely reflect their feelings/viewpoints on issues that are important to them. Whether or not you like it, the history behind the whole MLK Day thing reflects on the entire county of Greenville, not just the politicians. Again, that is the way things are, not necessarily how they should be.

[quote]You said, "don't forget to be real at the same time". What is real? Real is different for different people, depends on how you are programmed.[/quote]

What I meant by that is to not expect people to run with the headlines. Folks will do it in a heartbeat. Some will read the fine print, others will not. At any rate, again, this is the way things are (real), not necessarily the way things should be (ideal).

[quote]This petty stuff that bothers the average person doesn't bother me. I have shed most of the brainwashing from politics, government, etc.[/quote]

But you aren't the only resident of Greenville County, nor the state of South Carolina. The issue here is how do certain issues appear to the general public, not motonenterprises.

[quote]You said, "The MLK Day issue, whether directly connected to politics, diversity, racism or whatever, did not look good on Greenville." So the flag issue in Columbia that caused boycotts all over SC looks great on Columbia right? Which issue is really worse? For some reason 401,174 people in SC chose Greenville which is still by far more than any other county in the state.
[right]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/right]
[/quote]

The fact of the matter is that it did NOT look good on Greenville; nothing more, nothing less. And as far as the flag issue goes, from what I gathered, the issue didn't so much reflect on the city of Columbia as it did the state as a whole. The city of Columbia does not own the statehouse. The elected officials who meet there do not come exclusively from Columbia. I do think that the general public at least knew that much. But when you have officials from a lone county that refuse to observe MLK Day, that obviously reflects more on the county populace.

I said all of that to say this: I am not saying that Greenville is a bad place. I could envision myself living there. I have never had any negative personal experiences in Greenville, racial or otherwise. The city and county contribute significantly to the state's economy and has a great deal of potential and a bright future ahead. I am not anti-Greenville in ANY way. But THAT ONE PARTICULAR ISSUE (MLK Day) didn't exactly paint Greenville in the most favorable hue. That's all I was saying man. Like I said, it goes to image and perception, AND NOT NECESSARILY REALITY. And if it isn't the reality, then trust me, it will show.

Now, at this point we can go back to discussing diversity in all of its many facets as it exists in Greenville. UrbanSoutherner brought up some interesting points in his last two posts....

[waccamatt]

..Speaking of the flag issue at the State House; the city of Columbia sued the state of SC to remove the rag from the dome/grounds, hardly an endorsement of it. The fact is that it is the Upstate and the Lowcountry that primarily support the thing and NOT Columbia.

As far as Greenville County is concerned; they have a history of ostracizing minorities: anti-gay resolution in 1997 and the failure to recognize MLK Day are 2 cases in point.

Edited by waccamatt, 18 April 2005 - 01:35 AM.

[motonenterprises]

krazeeboi, I apologize. I didn't realize you were black also. Didn't mean to come off so harsh, but it seems I am constantly defending the place I live in. I truly don't care about politicians, to me they are all evil. We don't have the ability to change others, only ourselves. So I don't worry about it. I love MLK, but it wouldn't bother me if there were no holidays. You said the MLK issue really bothered you, again its the way we look at things. In order to truly push forward in life we must have to capabilitly to look at things from outside our little boxes or perceptions if you will. Ex. Earth is not the center of the universe, neither or we. I have never been a follow the crowd type. Black or white.