138 replies to this topic

[vicupstate]

What I see in Post 607 is an enclosed mall without the enclosure, not another Main St.  Haywood Mall will become the next McAlister Square, it is already starting in that direction.  I sincerely question if Crescent Center will get built.

[mallguy]

vicupstate, on Mar 23 2007, 04:53 AM, said:

Haywood Mall will become the next McAlister Square, it is already starting in that direction.

I agree, but out of curiosity, what are your reasons for thinking that?  My view is that it's just no longer in an area of high growth and hasn't kept up with the latest mall trends, such as by having an outdoor component and a Cheesecake Factory or the like, and so the new shopping centers that do that will lure away some of its business.  Simon ought to keep investing in expansions and further renovations of the mall (although the interior re-do is good).

[gsupstate]

vicupstate, on Mar 23 2007, 03:53 AM, said:

Haywood Mall will become the next McAlister Square, it is already starting in that direction.

Not sure where you get that from.  The state's highest grossing mall.  Just remodeled and at 95% occupancy. And oh, maybe we should tell all those new better stores that have just opened, that they opened in the wrong location.....Coach, Aerie, Pottery Barn, etc, etc.  Did these companies know they were opening in a dying mall?    

Any facts to support that Haywood will be the next McAlister?

Now if you meant the Laurens end of Haywood Road, I would agree.

Edited by gsupstate, 23 March 2007 - 05:15 AM.

[gsupstate]

mallguy, on Mar 22 2007, 08:14 PM, said:

Remember, Pleasantburg Drive was the 1960s version of Woodruff Road.  (Read the news reports about "upscale" McAlister Square when it opened in 1968, I'd guess because it had an Ivey's.)  Build cheap sprawl, use it for a few years, and then build newer cheap sprawl farther out.  The cycle continues...

And that cycle seems to be changing.  McAlister is now a University Center.  Fresh Market is opening across from McAlister.  The theaters and Garners are doing quite well.  Seems we've gone full cycle and that area has life.  Hmmmmm......     

[vicupstate]

gsupstate, on Mar 23 2007, 05:14 AM, said:

Not sure where you get that from.  The state's highest grossing mall.  Just remodeled and at 95% occupancy. And oh, maybe we should tell all those new better stores that have just opened, that they opened in the wrong location.....Coach, Aerie, Pottery Barn, etc, etc.  Did these companies know they were opening in a dying mall?    

Any facts to support that Haywood will be the next McAlister?

Now if you meant the Laurens end of Haywood Road, I would agree.

That it would be the highest grosssing mall should be no surprise.  It is the largest in the state, is the only one in the state's largest county and the only one in the state's second wealthiest county.  Compared to other malls in other SC cities it would stand to reason that it has the highest gross.  

Whereas it use to be the only horse in town for primary shopping, it now has major, more contemporary competition with even more on the way.  

When was the last time something new was built on Haywood.  The Laurens road end all the way up to the mall is obviously in decline.  Consumer tastes have changed and enclosed malls are going out of style.  I'm not saying the place is going to close tomorrow, but I seriously believe it has hit it's high water mark.      

I admit I haven't seen per foot sales figures, but I've seen malls such as Columbia Mall and Eastland Mall go from thriving to ailing.  i see some of the same signs now.

[gsupstate]

vicupstate, on Mar 23 2007, 07:32 AM, said:

I admit I haven't seen per foot sales figures, but I've seen malls such as Columbia Mall and Eastland Mall go from thriving to ailing.  i see some of the same signs now.

Good point.  But look at the demographics around both Eastland and Columbia Place.  Haywood is on the Eastside / Southeast side (the side of the metro with stellar demographics), on the major artery into and out of the city.  As for new around Haywood.....look at the numbers of workers at Fluor (more being added) a major corporate campus.  Look at the new GHS Patewood.  The new St.Frances addition.  Look at all the new stores in the mall that came with the remodel.  New restaurants (Cheeseburger in Paradise chose Haywood, not Woodruff).  Look at the occupany numbers at the remodeled Hilton.  Look at all the new offices behind Fluor off Halton Road.

IMO, my prediction for Haywood Mall, will be that it continues to morph into a better and better mall.  Simon will ensure that (excellent company) and the 385 growth will continue to push it.  The fact that it is the states largest and the counties only mall......just don't see it sliding.  It's getting older yes, but it has better stores today and brings in more dollars than it did 5 years ago. How is that headed downhill?  
Here's an aerial of the mall showing much new growth and many powerful names.  It just doesn't look like it's going down.  I just don't see it.

http://www.choldings.....ent Place.pdf

[GvilleSC]

Well, maybe when the stores start leaving, if and when they do... Perhaps some will make it downtown, instead of heading the other way on 385 to Woodruff Rd. By that time, we can only hope that some stores will have already proved downtown to be a good market.

[mallguy]

I don't expect to see Haywood be vibrant forever but here're my views of the mall's plusses and minuses:

Plusses:

1.  Department stores: the only place in Greenville County with full-line large department stores (I don't count the mini-Belk stores or Mast downtown) is Haywood.  Belk, Macy's and JCPenney are doing fine chain-wide, and assuming the Haywood stores are performing well, they will be key attractions that can help keep the mall afloat.

2.  It's the only mall around- some people would probably rather just shop in a mall, despite downtown and lifestyle-center competition.

3.  Key location: sort of in-town and along I-385.

4.  Critical mass: my findings are that critical mass is a key factor in retail success, with more size meaning more success.  Haywood is definitely the largest retail center in the Upstate.

Minuses:

1.  Location: Haywood Road is no longer an area of high growth. Retailers like going where the growth is, and A-grade tenants have found other options, such as Greenville Mall when it was still alive and now Greenridge.  

2.   Trendy tenants: sure, Haywood has Pottery Barn, but it doesn't have mass-market sit-down restaurants such as PF Chang's or big-box tenants that are all the rage today.

3.  Monopoly: Simon seems to be letting the mall rest on its laurels.  It's the dominant mall so Simon doesn't have to dump money into it to keep it thriving.  Thus that horrid beige brick, straight from 1980, is still there, and the mall hasn't adopted some recent trends, such as outdoor sections or Cheesecake Factory-type restaurants or the like.  Sooner or later the mall's neglect (yes, I know it was renovated, but not enough) will catch up to it.

As long as Haywood doesn't lose its anchors, I foresee it sticking around for a long time, overall.

Edited by mallguy, 23 March 2007 - 04:58 PM.

[Spartan]

I dont think Haywood is going anywhere unless they build a new "mall" or "mall type develpment" on Woodruff somewhere. Haywood is a regional draw, and like you said, it has the only large department stores in Greenville County, which in-and-of-itself says alot.

[Skyliner]

Just out of curiosity, what exactly would you all categorize as "large department" stores?

[Spartan]

In Haywood's case the stores are usually physically larger than the others in the Upstate (e.g. - Dillards). Thats what I'm talking about here. Realisticly the only mall in the Upstate than can hold a candle to Haywood is Westgate, but even that doesn't have the volume and selection within its anchor stores that you see at Haywood.

[mallguy]

Skyliner, on Mar 23 2007, 10:02 PM, said:

Just out of curiosity, what exactly would you all categorize as "large department" stores?

100,000+ sf, with full-line clothing and home sections.  

One thing I noticed at Haywood- more "riff raff", compared to how the mall was in the '80s and '90s.  Not a good sign.

Who'd have ever thought that 3 of Greenville's 4 malls would shut down?  Losing Haywood could be as unexpected as losing the other 3.

Edited by mallguy, 23 March 2007 - 11:01 PM.

[whitehourseview]

mallguy, on Mar 23 2007, 11:59 PM, said:

100,000+ sf, with full-line clothing and home sections.  

One thing I noticed at Haywood- more "riff raff", compared to how the mall was in the '80s and '90s.  Not a good sign.

Who'd have ever thought that 3 of Greenville's 4 malls would shut down?  Losing Haywood could be as unexpected as losing the other 3.

4 malls? McAllister's, Greenville, Haywood and the other? Bell Tower?

[gsupstate]

mallguy, on Mar 23 2007, 10:59 PM, said:

Who'd have ever thought that 3 of Greenville's 4 malls would shut down?  Losing Haywood could be as unexpected as losing the other 3.

Well lets see......if you look over a span of 40 years, every city in the US has lost 3, 4, or more malls, with one two super regionals in quality areas left standing.

Charlotte lost: Cotswold, Freedom, Eastland......Southpark still going strong.
Birmingham lost: Eastwood, Western Hills, Westlake, Century Plaza.......Brookwood and Riverchase still going strong.
Raleigh lost: South Hills and North Hills with Crabtree still going strong.
Columbia lost: Richland, and about to loose Columbia Place......Columbiana still going strong.
Huntsville lost: The Mall, Heart of Huntsville and Dunnavants Mall.......with Madison Square and Parkway CIty still going strong.
The list goes on and on and on in every city.  So not sure what the point is?????

Greenville has a great super-regional, Haywood, going strong, that in the last year added: Coach, Guess, Aerie, Williams Sonoma, Coldwater Creek, Pac-Sun, Starbucks, Pottery Barn, etc, etc.  It's in a good area and going strong.    

[linkerjpatrick]

Retail and industry is really not that different from farming.  Everything goes through a life cycle and "crops are rotated".  30 years from now Woodruff Road may be the "dead zone" and everyone may be talking about the new mall or shopping center in Berea or Travelers Rest (actually that may occur in 10-15 years or sooner in some places).  Haywood Mall had done as well as it has because it has reinvented itself a few times some more extreme than others.  Other than JCPenny which never seems to change the rest of the mall is totally different in character than it was in the 80's when it first opened.  Their was no Dillard or the wing it's connected to.  Anyone remember the 1940's style diner where the atheletic shoe store near Penny's was?  How about when a store called, "Video Concepts" was a place to catch at least part of a free movie?  I remember getting dirty looks from the store owners when I would sit on the couch and watch almost all of Superman (1978 version) or Alien on the big screen TV's playing "laserdisc" versions of the movies.

Greenville Mall on the other hand never really changed significantly.  The interior was always dark despite the skylights and some of the stores belonged in a flea market more than a mall and you think Haywood has "riff-raff" (I admit Friday nights can be pretty bad with all the high school kids, etc. hanging out but  I could have sworn I saw zombies patroling the nooks and crannies of Greenville Mall.

I'm glad Greenville Tech has still retained some of the "Mallness" of McCalister by keeping a few shops and co-existing with some office space too.  Growing up I classified the three malls as follows;

McCalister - the old people's mall (seriously the demographic was seen when visiting the dept. stores and of course Morrison's Cafeteria
Haywood - the "normal mall
Greenville - the flea market/freak mall

I think some are forgetting another mall however.  The Wade Hampton Mall.  It lasted just a bit longer than the Bell Tower Mall but was allowed to slowly die and now is used by Bob Jones University for various things.  It had an Eckerd's, Outdoors shop (in the rear).  I bought or had my parent by me quite a few camping supplies there when I was in scouting in the late 70's and early 80's and a Movie theater.  I think the movie theater was still operating there in the mid to late 80's.  The last movie I think I saw their was Dead Poet's Society in 1989.

[mallguy]

The point of the 3 malls failing out of 4 is that even something generally unanticipated, such as a thriving mall going under, has happened in the past and could certainly happen to Haywood.  McAlister was the Haywood of the 1970s, yet now it's dead.  

Malls seem to die off because larger/better shopping centers are built or because the malls' trade areas go bad.  I don't see a mall that's larger than Haywood being built, but I do see multiple newer and smaller but nicer centers with trendier tenants possibly being built, and I see the Haywood area no longer being Greenville's premier retail area.  

I'd say that Haywood has changed, but it hasn't changed enough:

Look at SouthPark in Charlotte: originally anchored by Belk, Ivey's/Dillard's and Sears, it's now anchored by the first two plus Macy's, Neiman Marcus and Nordstrom, plus it has added wildly popular sit-down restaurants, plus a Dick's Sporting Goods and a Joseph-Beth, plus a string of high-end chain restaurants such as Morton's.  The mall has thus added new categories of tenants that it didn't have when it first opened- high-end department stores, white-tablecloth restaurants and big-box retailers.  It's also added a different type of architecture- an outdoor component- that it didn't have when it opened.  It's kept up with the latest trends in malls and has been completely rejuvenated and significantly expanded, with full interior and exterior renovations. Same goes for Lenox Square and other dominant malls.

Haywood, on the other hand, has added one anchor and a new wing in 27 years and has renovated its interior a few times, but that's it.  The exterior is the same.  No new categories of tenants, such as big-box retailers or mass-market sit-down restaurants such as a Cheesecake Factory, have been added.  Haywood's in-line tenants are definitely nicer than when the mall first opened (Video Concepts was a fun store but wasn't upscale- thanks for the memories!) but it hasn't added completely new categories of tenants to the extent SouthPark has.

Customer tastes in mall tenants change- witness the decline of mid-tier department stores (such as Dillard's, which is not performing particularly well these days, with stagnant same-store sales) and the rise of big-box retailers and the Cheesecake Factory and similar restaurants- and people in Greenville will want and get new types of retailers and restaurants.  If Haywood doesn't adapt and keep up with those trends, another shopping center in Greenville will and will take Haywood's business.

(FYI in Charlotte, Eastland (www.eastlandmall.com) and Freedom Mall (no website but there is an article about it, with pictures, on www.labelscar.com) are still malls with stores in them, and Cotswold has just been de-malled by having its roof removed; all three centers are still there, even though Cotswold is the only one of the three that is doing well.)

Edited by mallguy, 24 March 2007 - 07:55 AM.

[linkerjpatrick]

For it's time Video Concepts was pretty "upscale".  At least it was upscale to me.  I didn't have any friends or family, etc. that could afford one of the large screen projection T.V's or laser disc players.  At that time I was going to a private school and the school was only able to obtain one of those from a gift from one of the richest families associated with that school/church.

McCalister Square was more the "Haywood" of the 60's not the 70's.  I remember my parents or grandparents taking me to  McCalister to ride my tricycle around the perimeter in the late 60's and it had been there a while before that.  I remember when Haywood opened around the summer of 1980 it was very big deal.  The place was packed the opening weekend.  Around that time Ronald Reagan also spoke in the center court.  I wasn't able to see him because of the crowd but I went down to Video Concepts and watched the feed on one of the big screens.

Haywood also did not have a food court until the late 80's.  It had places to eat scattered around the place. Ruby Tuesday was where Sam Goody is, etc.

One thing about Haywood that is very odd however is that it does have a "Greenville Mall" section  The entrance corridor betweem Sears and Macy's (formally Rich's) has always seemed to be dark, have odd stores.  That crowded board game store while having interesting things seems to mainly appeal to the D&D crowd, the spot next door to it always seems to have some kind of shady place occupying it and they used to have a cafeteria there which seemed more greenville mallish than a Haywood kind of place.  The section from the middle to where Belk's is also seems like a slice of the old McCalister Mall.

[mallguy]

Fair enough- I'll defer to you on Video Concepts- I think your memories of the store must be more accurate than mine.  (I'd guess in 1980, even selling a VCR was pretty upscale!)

[Spartan]

Were all 4 of Greenville's mall open at the same time? I was under the impression is was more staggered... like Bell Tower and McAlister, then McAlister and Greenville, then Greenville and Haywood? Can someone help me with the timeline here?

[adrockc2]

Spartan, on Mar 24 2007, 09:14 AM, said:

Were all 4 of Greenville's mall open at the same time? I was under the impression is was more staggered... like Bell Tower and McAlister, then McAlister and Greenville, then Greenville and Haywood? Can someone help me with the timeline here?

I know McAlister, Greenville, and Haywood were all open at the same time.  I'm not sure when Bell Tower closed, my guess is sometime around 86 as I can only remember going there once.