138 replies to this topic

[DealMan]

I agree with StevenRocks post in regard to how a mall decays and what the causes are. The main item that most people fail to realize for why a mall goes bad is the "trade area" around it becomes less appealing. The trade area, meaning both the retailers as well as the population demographics. In regard to Haywood, both the population and the income/education components have increased, and continue to increase. This alone is not enough to sustain a mall if the mall owner is not willing to put money into it. Simon has proven they will put money into the interior which keeps the retailers happy and from leaving, as well as keeping most customers happy with their shopping experience, and keeps them spending money there.

In regard to the retail area it has gone downhill some and is aged, but is still a strong corrridor with great traffic, visibility, and some good national retailers. The Mall is located regionally as well, with the I-385 access which helps it appeal to a larger trade area.

The main item that most people are not considering in their posts here, is that the majority of dead malls were dying for approximately 5-10 years before they ever got demalled, or torn down. Haywood Mall keeps trending up with both sales and getting more high quality retailers. It has no signs of trending down or dying, other than the fact that Simon, nor the tenants have done much to spruce up the outside.

Most mall owners are reactive rather than proactive. Once Simon gets word that some of the big name tenants that are negotiating at Magnolia Park/Greenridge are not interested in Haywood, and more of those tenants continue to land there, it will prompt them to begin to spend money to combat that. They are a very aggressive landlord, and have strongholds on many national retailers, due to their relationships.

I think ultimately the competition between Magnolia Park/Greenridge and Haywood will be good because it will get more national retailers focused and interested in Greenville, and it will keep all of the owners of those developments on their toes, and spending money to keep themselves at a competitive equilibrium.

In regard to downtown retail. I am very excited about the changes and growth that retail has made in downtown. The Mcbee Station will be great for the community, and will provide more viability for downtown retail. In regard to mass scale downtown retail with department stores, higher end national restaurants and retailers, I think it will be quite some time 10-20 years before they consider downtown due to various constraints. The main reasons being (1) cannibalization of their other stores, (2) lack of parking and access (3) incomes are still very low for most national retailers, and (4) lack of one synergistic large development where they could all locate together(national retailers are like sheep, and always follow the herd)

[Skyliner]

mallguy, on Mar 26 2007, 12:47 PM, said:

At its prime, Greenville Mall met my needs- Harold's and Parisian for clothes, Williams-Sonoma for wedding presents, Oshman's for sports stuff and the Drexel Heritage store for furniture, plus the nice sit-down restaurant across from Harold's that kept closing and re-opening and the movie theater for entertainment.  I had no use for Haywood- it had a lot more stores but none that met my needs; it was too mid-market.  Del Taco or whatever and the Gap didn't cut it.

I actually agree with you about Greenville Mall in its last prime.  It was a totally different atmosphere than Haywood - more refined and family friendly.  Of course, Haywood has changed quite a bit since then (which is very good), but Greenville Mall had just about everything a person could want in such a shopping center.

[gsupstate]

DealMan, on Mar 26 2007, 12:46 PM, said:

I agree with StevenRocks post in regard to how a mall decays and what the causes are. The main item that most people fail to realize for why a mall goes bad is the "trade area" around it becomes less appealing. The trade area, meaning both the retailers as well as the population demographics. In regard to Haywood, both the population and the income/education components have increased, and continue to increase. This alone is not enough to sustain a mall if the mall owner is not willing to put money into it. Simon has proven they will put money into the interior which keeps the retailers happy and from leaving, as well as keeping most customers happy with their shopping experience, and keeps them spending money there.

In regard to the retail area it has gone downhill some and is aged, but is still a strong corrridor with great traffic, visibility, and some good national retailers. The Mall is located regionally as well, with the I-385 access which helps it appeal to a larger trade area.

The main item that most people are not considering in their posts here, is that the majority of dead malls were dying for approximately 5-10 years before they ever got demalled, or torn down. Haywood Mall keeps trending up with both sales and getting more high quality retailers. It has no signs of trending down or dying, other than the fact that Simon, nor the tenants have done much to spruce up the outside.

Most mall owners are reactive rather than proactive. Once Simon gets word that some of the big name tenants that are negotiating at Magnolia Park/Greenridge are not interested in Haywood, and more of those tenants continue to land there, it will prompt them to begin to spend money to combat that. They are a very aggressive landlord, and have strongholds on many national retailers, due to their relationships.

I think ultimately the competition between Magnolia Park/Greenridge and Haywood will be good because it will get more national retailers focused and interested in Greenville, and it will keep all of the owners of those developments on their toes, and spending money to keep themselves at a competitive equilibrium.

In regard to downtown retail. I am very excited about the changes and growth that retail has made in downtown. The Mcbee Station will be great for the community, and will provide more viability for downtown retail. In regard to mass scale downtown retail with department stores, higher end national restaurants and retailers, I think it will be quite some time 10-20 years before they consider downtown due to various constraints. The main reasons being (1) cannibalization of their other stores, (2) lack of parking and access (3) incomes are still very low for most national retailers, and (4) lack of one synergistic large development where they could all locate together(national retailers are like sheep, and always follow the herd)

Excellent post and you are SPOT ON!!!!        This is a most logical and accurate post.  Again, SPOT ON!!

[mallguy]

DealMan, on Mar 26 2007, 01:46 PM, said:

I agree with StevenRocks post in regard to how a mall decays and what the causes are. The main item that most people fail to realize for why a mall goes bad is the "trade area" around it becomes less appealing... In regard to downtown retail. I am very excited about the changes and growth that retail has made in downtown. The Mcbee Station will be great for the community, and will provide more viability for downtown retail. In regard to mass scale downtown retail with department stores, higher end national restaurants and retailers, I think it will be quite some time 10-20 years before they consider downtown due to various constraints. The main reasons being (1) cannibalization of their other stores, (2) lack of parking and access (3) incomes are still very low for most national retailers, and (4) lack of one synergistic large development where they could all locate together(national retailers are like sheep, and always follow the herd)

I agree with this post but just want to add that malls die as well because newer/nicer centers are built in the same trade area. I definitely see this happening with developments along Woodruff Road, yet another key factor I saw in mall success (based on a study I saw somewhere a few years ago) is that size is a key factor in mall success; the bigger the better, which will definitely protect Haywood.

I also don't see department stores, higher end national restaurants and retailers heading downtown in the near future, as pointed out above.  People who think otherwise just need to realize that Greenville is neither a large city nor a tourist town nor a high-income one; it's not Greenwich, CT, Charleston or similar cities in disposable incomes (from tourists or locals) or even set in a large trade area like Stamford, CT is, all of which have high-end department stores and upscale mall-type stores and restaurants downtown.  High-end national stores chase large, dense populations with a lot of money and Greenville just doesn't have that (particularly downtown), compared to a lot of other places.  Perhaps zoning to steer development downtown rather than in the suburbs (like in Portland, OR, with a growth boundary) would do the trick, but the "zoning = socialism" crowd would never stand for it.

Edited by mallguy, 26 March 2007 - 06:32 PM.

[Skyliner]

Perhaps you should have read that article on Carl Sobocinski a couple weeks ago in the Greenville Journal.  He for one (and he's not alone) believes Greenville definitely has the foundation for a very strong and successful dining destination in Downtown.  With the undeniable growth in tourism, the always steady business conference climate, and the (re)education of local citizens regarding the history and positive changes, I can totally envision downtown becoming more well known as a true "tourist town."  There really should be no denying that it has reached that level to an extent already.  Just spend time here on a weekend or even an evening during the week.  Take notice of the license plates as well.  They are in town from places all over the U.S. and Canada - always.  This is only a part of the picture, as there are also many visiting from other nations.  While most of these are not in town merely to go sightseeing, they do that just the same, and are pleasantly surprised by what they experience here.  I don't see any of this going backward - just continuing to get better.

[gsupstate]

mallguy, on Mar 26 2007, 06:26 PM, said:

I agree with this post but just want to add that malls die as well because newer/nicer centers are built in the same trade area. I definitely see this happening with developments along Woodruff Road, yet another key factor I saw in mall success (based on a study I saw somewhere a few years ago) is that size is a key factor in mall success; the bigger the better, which will definitely protect Haywood.

I also don't see department stores, higher end national restaurants and retailers heading downtown in the near future, as pointed out above.  People who think otherwise just need to realize that Greenville is neither a large city nor a tourist town nor a high-income one; it's not Greenwich, CT, Charleston or similar cities in disposable incomes (from tourists or locals) or even set in a large trade area like Stamford, CT is, all of which have high-end department stores and upscale mall-type stores and restaurants downtown.  High-end national stores chase large, dense populations with a lot of money and Greenville just doesn't have that (particularly downtown), compared to a lot of other places.  Perhaps zoning to steer development downtown rather than in the suburbs (like in Portland, OR, with a growth boundary) would do the trick, but the "zoning = socialism" crowd would never stand for it.

Nevermind.  Not worth the energy.

Edited by gsupstate, 26 March 2007 - 06:58 PM.

[linkerjpatrick]

Greenville Mall was big in a certain way but it was the wrong way.  It was way too long for some people without some good central access point nor do they have some entrances on the back side where on felt safe.  Carolina Place in Charlotte is just as long or longer but it has a lot more entries.  That might not be a big deal to some of us who like to go to the Mall to take walks but it remember as a small boy how long it would seems and when you're being dragged along on a shopping trip with parents or other relatives it's literal torture.  They same can be said for those with health issues.

Haywood is a lot better situation because it has a central layout, more entry points and two stories with easier access to all the stores.  The brick exterior is not a big deal to me.  No, it's not very creative looking but it's not ugly either.  If I could change anything I would like to see either the food court centrally located or have two food courts by adding one to the other end.  At least they have Panera and Ruby Tuesday on the opposite end

[StevenRocks]

DealMan, on Mar 26 2007, 02:46 PM, said:

The main item that most people are not considering in their posts here, is that the majority of dead malls were dying for approximately 5-10 years before they ever got demalled, or torn down. Haywood Mall keeps trending up with both sales and getting more high quality retailers. It has no signs of trending down or dying, other than the fact that Simon, nor the tenants have done much to spruce up the outside.

Exactly, if there were some continuing signs of decay, there would be cause for concern, but in this case, I think they're going to be okay.

Edited by StevenRocks, 27 March 2007 - 10:37 PM.

[maninthepark]

You guys that are looking for an Apple Store in Greenville, this may be your lucky day.
Now, I don't know how accurate this imfo. is but this site is pretty good at figuring out new store locations. Click the Link and scroll to the bottom of the page.
If this is true it will help keep Haywood on top of the game.

[Skyliner]

You must be refering to the top 20 largest mac-user metro areas without an Apple store?  We are #3 on the list.    Click Here

Edit:  Okay, you obviously meant the reference right above the one I saw.   

Quote

Haywood Mall - Greenville, SC - A super-regional mall of 1.2 million square feet operated by Simon Property Group along I-385. The mall has 150 shops and draws from a six-county region. In late Feb. 2007 tipsters said Apple is in lease negotiations with the mall for an unknown space. It would be the first Apple store in the state.

I thought Columbia already had an Apple store though.

Edited by Skyliner, 02 April 2007 - 05:56 PM.

[maninthepark]

Skyliner, on Apr 2 2007, 05:50 PM, said:

You must be refering to the top 20 largest mac-user metro areas without an Apple store? We are #3 on the list. Click Here

Edit: Okay, you obviously meant the reference right above the one I saw.   

I thought Columbia already had an Apple store though.

Evidently not, if you go to the official Apple web site and look for a store location, S.C. is not listed.

Edited by maninthepark, 02 April 2007 - 06:21 PM.

[Galley]

Haywood Mall?  That might actually be better than a stand-alone store at Magnolia Park.

[Skyliner]

My guess is that an Apple store at Magnolia Park would be connected to other shops and not a stand alone store.  I wonder how well iPlace is doing over at Thornblade?  I have only visited that store a couple times since it opened.

[linkerjpatrick]

maninthepark, on Apr 2 2007, 08:20 PM, said:

Evidently not, if you go to the official Apple web site and look for a store location, S.C. is not listed.

A few significant things to remember that bode well for a Greenville Apple store are;

Two existing significant retail presenses;  The Apple Shop at CompUSA (don't laugh, their sales are the best in their region) and a dedicated independant retail store - iPlace on Bateville Road in front of Publix

Also the area has several active user groups;

The Greenville Mac User's Group (of which I am an active member and organizer)

The Greer Mac User's Group

A Spartanburg User's group  and I think their is good one in the Oconee area that meets in one of the Cliff's communities in the area.

[greenvillegrows]

Any ideas about the longevity of malls like Greenridge?  I know it seems to be a national trend, but I don't see the logic.

I fight traffic all the way to the mall and then fight traffic in the mall.  I find a parking space, get out of my car, go into a store and then go back to my car to find another parking space.  Instead of building stores on top of each other, we spread them out over acres and acres of extra land.

I consider malls, at their best, a necessary evil.  My ideal way to shop, when I have to go, is to walk on a sidewalk next to interesting things, stop for a snack, hear some music, maybe some exercise.  I prefer something like downtown because it's outdoors, but the Haywood Mall works similarly.

Is the trend here to stay?  Do people actually enjoy it more?

Wasn't the idea ot build a community hub for shopping?  It's not that way.  It's just a Woodruff Road that doesn't go straight, and there are no connector roads for escape.

[Spartan]

Greenridge is not a mall. Its a shopping center with good intensions, and some good aspects. You may drive from one lot to another, but you stay within that site. You don't go out to Woodruff Rd  and then come back. Its a small step in the right direction, if nothing else.

The news about the Apple Store is very exciting.

[Skyliner]

I agree, although the internal pedestrian access could have been improved a bit, IMO.

[breed]

greenvillegrows, on Apr 2 2007, 11:00 PM, said:

Any ideas about the longevity of malls like Greenridge?  I know it seems to be a national trend, but I don't see the logic.

The national trend of lifestyle centers is here to stay.  However, Shops at Greenridge is probably not the best example of one.

The best lifestyle centers are those that are much more pedestrian-oriented.  The Shops at Greenridge fails in that regard. The best example I can think of is The Grove in LA.  

http://www.thegrovela.com/

It has a very similar feel to a mall, except it is largely outdoors, resulting in better street exposure and lower costs for owners/tenants.

[btoy]

Greenridge is more of a Lifestyle-Power Center Hybrid.  I do not think it was ever intended to be a true Lfestyle Center.

[mallguy]

Any recent thoughts on this topic?

I don't see Haywood dying anytime soon, but with the retail area around it on death watch, that cannot bode well for the mall over the long run.  Critical mass is key in retail competition, and if Woodruff Road would get a few department stores, it could create serious competition. Charlotte just got a JC Penney in a strip/big box center in southeast Charlotte, and so some chains consider "off-mall" locations.  (Surely Haywood's run-down exterior is a turnoff to some potential tenants- maybe Anthropologie is going downtown instead of to Haywood for ambiance?)

Conversely, I read that an Apple Store often generates the same or higher total sales that a department store anchor generates, so Haywood in a way got a 6th anchor.