102 replies to this topic

[hauntedheadnc]

A tall building in downtown Asheville?  OhnoesOMGtehhorrors!

http://www.citizen-t...ID=200770605120

NIMBY's at their finest.

[rooster8]

Elaine Lite is quickly becoming the queen of the NIMBYs.  I think she needs to focus on steep slope development and leave urban infill alone.

[otis-t]

orulz, on May 23 2007, 01:48 PM, said:

The King James Apartments on Charlotte are owned by Pinnacle Ridge Holding LLC. Pinnacle Ridge apparently has some involvement in the Penny's building as well. That would further reinforce the link to Public Interest Projects.

Any association with Pinnacle Ridge apartments on Merrimon (they used to be called something else) ...?

[hauntedheadnc]

The NIMBY storm is swirling around this project on the AC-T forums, the Mountain X-Press forums, and naturally PARC has jumped in too.  

I will admit my misgivings about this building.  It's okay but it's not great and if it were up to me, I would modify the architecture some, fix the way the building greets all three streets involved, and add some flashy deco touches to all those expanses of blank wall.  Something akin to the reliefs at Rockefeller Center, perhaps.  However, the height doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Actually, if I could get my hands on the Ellington's plans and change them as much as I pleased, here's what I would do:

-- Preserve the building at 31 Biltmore Avenue, perhaps connecting it the main structure for use as hotel offices, a restaurant or nightclub, or even storage.  Just so long as it is protected.

-- Build a courtyard on the empty lot between 31 Biltmore and the next building down for use as a sculpture courtyard perhaps -- just a little place for residents of the building, hotel guests, and others to hang out.

-- Using the long rectangular lot fronting Aston and Lexington, build a rectangular building stairstepping up to a height probably taller than currently proposed to include all the space planned now.  Round the edges for that art deco look.  You just can't go wrong with round edges and shoulders.  The model should be the art deco hotels of South Beach.

-- If there is to be no retail or restaurant frontage on the main structure, at the very least include windows even if they don't look into anything other than offices or the kitchens, or the damn laundry room.  Anything is better than a big blank wall.

-- Restrict vehicle access to, probably, Lexington Avenue.

What would you all do if you could?

Edited by hauntedheadnc, 07 June 2007 - 02:02 PM.

[rooster8]

Downtown Commission defers decision for now:  http://citizen-times...ID=200770608036

I'm glad they're not rushing into this.

[hauntedheadnc]

I like how they're leaning toward retail along the Lexington and Aston frontage instead of some half-assed "art wall."

[pyalberice]

The Commission has asked that the architect look further into reconfiguring the parking structure so that retail space could be accomodated on Aston or Lexington.  I think the art wall idea should be pursued because this is an arts destination city and there are many artists in this area who should be given the opportunity to display their work.  The concept needs more refinement and the program needs to be better articulated but to me, an art display will be better for the community than a retail space where the workers make slightly more than minimum wage selling consumer goods made off-shore.

Please keep in mind that the guidelines in the UDO do not require retail space, only openings to break up the wall mass.  The architect could put in punched openings in the masonry wall and we would see car bumpers and fenders instead of art, and that would meet the UDO requirements.

In our meetings with the Ellington development group it appears that they are serious about making a positive contribution to the community at a variety of levels.  I think that their efforts have been underappreciated because the discussion so far has been focused on height and style.  

Also, please keep in mind that the equivalent square footage of the project could be accomdated in 17 or 18 stories above Biltmore Ave if the design maximized the developable area of the site.  Obviously it would be lower, which may placate those who have a problem with height, but it would be a weaker design.

[hauntedheadnc]

Nobody wants a lower building except for the NIMBY's, and the rest of us only want a facade that adds to the street instead of taking away from it.  If you want to see a big blank wall along the street, the dead zone behind the Biltmore Building, on College Street, is one more doozy.  None of us want a repeat of that.  Even if there's a gigantic mural spilling along the entire frontage, it's still a big blank wall.  Blank walls kill street life.

To build a project that does not include retail along the streetfront is the epitome of a project that wants to leach off the city's existing vitality without contributing to it.  Besides, that retail space could just as easily be leased to a law firm or a software company where the workers make much more than minimum wage.

Edited by hauntedheadnc, 08 June 2007 - 04:12 PM.

[macrocosim144]

hauntedheadnc, on Jun 8 2007, 04:11 PM, said:

Nobody wants a lower building except for the NIMBY's, and the rest of us only want a facade that adds to the street instead of taking away from it.  If you want to see a big blank wall along the street, the dead zone behind the Biltmore Building, on College Street, is one more doozy.  None of us want a repeat of that.  Even if there's a gigantic mural spilling along the entire frontage, it's still a big blank wall.  Blank walls kill street life.

To build a project that does not include retail along the streetfront is the epitome of a project that wants to leach off the city's existing vitality without contributing to it.  Besides, that retail space could just as easily be leased to a law firm or a software company where the workers make much more than minimum wage.

I think you will find that a good portion of these so called NIMBYs do not intend to "preserve Asheville" they merely want to inhibit this culturally rich community from becoming a more powerful player in the state.  As the city grows and adds voters it will reshape the electoral landscape of the state even more.  That may scare some conservatives desiring dominion, as they do.

IMO building up is important when trying to preserve natural beauty; also it makes mass transit viable and effective. In my home town Orlando Fl ... They have overdeveloped the surrounding areas to the point of ridiculousnesses!  Only now they are trying to reinvigorate the downtown area with more density ... unfortunately the natural beauty that once surrounded the city has been squandered and almost completely destroyed.

If it were up to me I would require by matter of law that the majority of building be urban dense and high! As long as they are planned well keeping in mind the mountain views and strategically setting height limits for different zones of the city; the living/working environments of the city can peacefully cohabitate with the magnificent surrounding natural beauty.  More importantly it all can be accessible through street trolleys,  monorails etc.

Edited by macrocosim144, 09 June 2007 - 12:59 PM.

[pyalberice]

"I think you will find that a good portion of these so called NIMBYs do not intend to "preserve Asheville" they merely want to inhibit this culturally rich community from becoming a more powerful player in the state. As the city grows and adds voters it will reshape the electoral landscape of the state even more. That may scare some conservatives desiring dominion, as they do."


I'm not sure about this.  I don't think NIMBYs are liberal or conservative.  I think they are uncompfortable with change and do not believe that the future can be better.

[hauntedheadnc]

pyalberice, on Jun 12 2007, 09:14 PM, said:

I'm not sure about this.  I don't think NIMBYs are liberal or conservative.  I think they are uncompfortable with change and do not believe that the future can be better.

Once you watch the Langren Hotel fall to make way for a crumbly two-story parking deck, and watch all the buildings on the north side of Pack Square fall to make way for that Akzona/Biltmore abomination, it's hard to blame them.  That's why the Ellington cannot be anything short of perfect.  If developers want to build highrises in Asheville, this first one in decades is going to have to prove that the product can be superior.  Otherwise, the NIMBYism and BANANAism is only going to be exponentially worse the next time.

[archiham04]

I think the issue of retail on S Lexington boils down to this: There are two futures for S Lexington. One where there are cafes, shops, clubs, offices and street life. Another, where you have essentially an alley, with Art work on the walls.

I am personally split on this.
On one hand we need to deal with the automobile in an urban setting. So perhaps having a hierarchy of streets, where some are alive and some are service, is the reality of dealing with cars and parking decks... a la Rankin street vs Haywood Street. A hierarchy needs to exist though. I certainly wouldn't want to see a parking deck with murals on Pritchard park.

pyalberice, do you know if there is a hierarchy? Is a mural wall allowed on Pritchard Park under the current UDO?

On the other hand, activating all the streets in downtown is doable... at a cost. Parking can be elevated above the retail level and all street facades can be required to be occupied space.

Do we force developers to spend EVEN MORE for the privilege of developing downtown by making them elevate or setback their parking? If we do, will that encourage some to develop on green fields outside of downtown? If we don't, will we ruin our downtown with dead zones of deserted alleys with mural walls?

[pyalberice]

archiham04, on Jun 13 2007, 06:35 AM, said:

I think the issue of retail on S Lexington boils down to this: There are two futures for S Lexington. One where there are cafes, shops, clubs, offices and street life. Another, where you have essentially an alley, with Art work on the walls.

I am personally split on this.
On one hand we need to deal with the automobile in an urban setting. So perhaps having a hierarchy of streets, where some are alive and some are service, is the reality of dealing with cars and parking decks... a la Rankin street vs Haywood Street. A hierarchy needs to exist though. I certainly wouldn't want to see a parking deck with murals on Pritchard park.

pyalberice, do you know if there is a hierarchy? Is a mural wall allowed on Pritchard Park under the current UDO?

On the other hand, activating all the streets in downtown is doable... at a cost. Parking can be elevated above the retail level and all street facades can be required to be occupied space.

Do we force developers to spend EVEN MORE for the privilege of developing downtown by making them elevate or setback their parking? If we do, will that encourage some to develop on green fields outside of downtown? If we don't, will we ruin our downtown with dead zones of deserted alleys with mural walls?

[hauntedheadnc]

Nothing exciting and nothing new, but the Ellington now has a website up.  

http://www.theellington.info/

Meanwhile, check out this other venture of the Grove Park Inn, which seems to be inspired by the Battle Mansion it replaces.

http://www.thefitzge...nfo/index2.html

[rooster8]

Even if they aren't willing to (or can't) keep 31 Biltmore, I do wish they could get rid of that big brick box on the right side.  It looks very dumb.  Look at the little lady walking beside it in the Day version.  It is about as charming as the Berlin Wall.

[orulz]

That's not a part of the building. That's just a placeholder to show the massing of a real, neighboring building (with actual windows and retail spaces and stuff.) To get rid of that block, they'd just have to redo the rendering.

[rooster8]

Ahhh.... that's good then.

Edited by rooster8, 27 June 2007 - 08:43 PM.

[orulz]

New article about this project in the Citizen-Times: Ellington wins city panel’s approval

The Downtown Commission supported the proposal 7-1, after the developer agreed to include a small retail space at the corner of Aston and Lexington. They still plan to have the spaces for displaying local artists' artwork, but the retail space we all wanted is there too.

[hauntedheadnc]

orulz, on Jul 14 2007, 04:36 PM, said:

New article about this project in the Citizen-Times: Ellington wins city panel’s approval

The Downtown Commission supported the proposal 7-1, after the developer agreed to include a small retail space at the corner of Aston and Lexington. They still plan to have the spaces for displaying local artists' artwork, but the retail space we all wanted is there too.

I fear that I am beginning to dislike this building the more I look at it.  It's just too jumbled and graceless, and it commits the mortal sin of any downtown tower -- it has a definite ass end for everyone see, recognize, and observe and admire.  It only looks really good from one angle and the rest is a mash of jutting lines.  They could have done so much more to make this a graceful building worth its hype.

[pompusmaximus]

hauntedheadnc, on Jul 14 2007, 05:16 PM, said:

I fear that I am beginning to dislike this building the more I look at it.  It's just too jumbled and graceless, and it commits the mortal sin of any downtown tower -- it has a definite ass end for everyone see, recognize, and observe and admire.  It only looks really good from one angle and the rest is a mash of jutting lines.  They could have done so much more to make this a graceful building worth its hype.

I dunno, I think it's pretty awesome. I am very glad they decided to add a retail spot at the corner as well. I can't wait to visit Asheville in the future and see this wonderful "neo-deco" building as the centerpiece of a great city. I mean it sure beats looking at the ugly ass BB&T thing.