136 replies to this topic

[DanRNC]

I think its pretty funny that it takes Raleigh this long to plan and construct some roundabouts-you kind of have to wonder how in the world these people can actually tackle larger issues such as mass transit but I guess that is the general state of the US these days.

[ChiefJoJo]

The council apparently delayed a decision again:
N&O:

The City Council will hold a public hearing next month to discuss whether to place a roundabout at Hillsborough and Morgan streets.

[DPK]

ChiefJoJo, on Nov 7 2007, 05:41 PM, said:

The council apparently delayed a decision again:
N&O:

The City Council will hold a public hearing next month to discuss whether to place a roundabout at Hillsborough and Morgan streets.

[urbanesq]

DPK, on Nov 7 2007, 05:58 PM, said:

Do you think that's in order to let the new Council get seated?

[ChiefJoJo]

The hearing on this is planned for Dec 11 at Pullen Arts Center at 6pm (105 Pullen Rd near the NCSU Bell Tower).

[orulz]

The public hearing is coming up tomorrow. I suspect that finally we we will hear about some alternatives to the bypass lane roundabout design. The public hearing notice on the city’s website says:

Quote

“Staff from the City of Raleigh and engineers from PBS&J; design consultants will present several intersection improvement alternatives at the meeting and are seeking public input.”

I think that I'm in the minority here when I say that I think that a traffic signal is best for this intersection. My reasoning is that any roundabout design will take up too much space. That loss of space would make it pretty much impossible to build something on the Jade Garden parking lot, but a T-intersection would make for a nicely shaped parcel for redevelopment.

Instead of worrying about accomodating all the traffic solely on Hillsborough Street, the city should be talking about increasing connectivity downtown to provide an alternate route, spreading the traffic around instead. Somebody on here a while ago came up with the idea of extending Morgan Street westward (around or through Pullen Park Lofts apartments) as far as Ashe, and maybe even as far as Coxe/Park. Ashe sees very little traffic, and this would provide an excellent way to get to or from Morgan without ever using Hillsborough in the first place.

[Jones133]

I could go with that too Orulz. Some nice boom siganls to continue the work westward from St Marys intersection and continue the sidewalk improvements recently completed around Snoopys. 1001 Hillsborough St condos and the new St Marys staff housing would look nice with better sidewalks, then put some good pedestrian crossings at Morgan Hillsborough and it should function and look good.

[DPK]

Jones133, on Dec 10 2007, 03:09 PM, said:

I could go with that too Orulz. Some nice boom siganls to continue the work westward from St Marys intersection and continue the sidewalk improvements recently completed around Snoopys. 1001 Hillsborough St condos and the new St Marys staff housing would look nice with better sidewalks, then put some good pedestrian crossings at Morgan Hillsborough and it should function and look good.

I think that'd look pretty good now that I picture it in my head.  At this point I'll be happy when they finally pick any strategy and run with it.  I hope that tomorrow they actually get rid of that bypass late though.  The whole point of the circle is traffic calming for that area.  If they put the bypass in, they might as well just go with a nice boomed traffic light and bury all the power lines.

[ncwebguy]

I think the first roundabout should be in the Oberlin/Pullen area, not here.  With the limited number of "through" east-west connections from downtown to the NC State area and points west, traffic would be calmer if there were more ways of getting around.  An extende Morgan could be calmed too, since as it is now, traffic goes unimpeded from the Ashe light to St. Mary's.

Was this even in the original propsal for the Hillsborough Street Roundabouts?  And yes, bypass lanes won't do a thing for traffic calming or making that area any more attractive.  Maybe the developer who bought the land south of Hillsborough wants an indirect handout from the city for this project to improve the area?

Has the engineers studied a non-roundabout solution?

I don't know if I'll be able to make the meeting, but will try.

[JeffC]

ncwebguy, on Dec 10 2007, 06:35 PM, said:

I think the first roundabout should be in the Oberlin/Pullen area, not here. With the limited number of "through" east-west connections from downtown to the NC State area and points west, traffic would be calmer if there were more ways of getting around. An extende Morgan could be calmed too, since as it is now, traffic goes unimpeded from the Ashe light to St. Mary's.

FYI, the roundabout at Pullen/Oberlin (actually two roundabouts, with the Oberlin/Pullen road zig zag eliminated by routing Oberlin behind the block where Red Hot and Blue is about to open) is a done deal, with construction to start in May, 2008. Morgan/Hillsborough is the next phase in the project. HERE is the N&O article from October if you missed it...

Edited by JeffC, 11 December 2007 - 07:58 AM.

[ChiefJoJo]

ncwebguy, on Dec 10 2007, 05:35 PM, said:

I think the first roundabout should be in the Oberlin/Pullen area, not here.  With the limited number of "through" east-west connections from downtown to the NC State area and points west, traffic would be calmer if there were more ways of getting around.  An extende Morgan could be calmed too, since as it is now, traffic goes unimpeded from the Ashe light to St. Mary's.

Was this even in the original propsal for the Hillsborough Street Roundabouts?  And yes, bypass lanes won't do a thing for traffic calming or making that area any more attractive.  Maybe the developer who bought the land south of Hillsborough wants an indirect handout from the city for this project to improve the area?

Has the engineers studied a non-roundabout solution?

I don't know if I'll be able to make the meeting, but will try.

Quote

Morgan/Hillsborough is the next phase in the project.

IIRC the Morgan/Hillsborough project was ever part of the original Hillsborough Street (by NCSU) feasibility study, and now project.  I believe this came about as the city planned to implement a two-way conversion of Morgan St from here to downtown.  At the last public meeting, I recall that the inspiration for the roundabout was supposedly the notion of expanding the Livable Streets Plan westward to this area, but I think the designers lost their way in translation.

I would be OK with a traffic signal or roundabout with no bypass lane, and hopefully with accomodations for bicycles as well ( I see so many bikes along H St these days).  There is also a very large oak tree on the corner that the roundabout would take out.  Certainly a standard signalized intersection would allow this to remain standing--big plus if they can do both.  I always thought that oak was a nice entryway to the downtown of the "City of Oaks."

[Jones133]

A signalzed intersection would also free up some road way to be sold to private interests such as teh buyer of teh Bolton Building. THen there would be enough room to put a nice corner building there and have a nice row of storefronts.

[orulz]

I was at the meeting yesterday. Meeker and Crowder were there, along with 40 or so nearby residents, property owners, business owners, and just generally concerned citizens. Unfortunately had to leave at 7:30 so I didn't stay until the end, but before it was over there were a couple things I got out of it.

1. Nobody was completely happy with any of the alternatives.
2. There was a lot of public support for not pushing forward with the best of the available options, but instead expanding the scope of this from a project for an intersection to a plan for the entire neighborhood, in an attempt to increase connectivity to alleviate the choke point that this intersection presents. In particular, Crowder was very vocal in support of this method of moving forward.
3. The extension of Morgan on its east-west axis to Ashe, and on its north-south axis to Western, is currently under study by the city- with the results due sometime early next year.
4. Of the presented alternatives (bypass lane roundabout, 2-lane roundabout, 1-lane roundabout, and signalized intersection) nobody liked the bypass lane or the 2-lane roundabout options; about 2/3 seemed more interested in the 1-lane roundabout, and 1/3 in the signalized intersection.

I don't think you need a crystal ball to see how this will play out... I predict the two-laning of Morgan and improvements at this intersection will be postponed, until the results of the feasibility study for #3 are known, and assuming a positive result, one or both of the Morgan extensions (to Ashe and/or to Western) will be incorporated in the project.

[ncwebguy]

I meant to say the "Pullen" roundabout should be the first as you approach the NC State area westward from downtown, not first to be constructed.  I knew what I was thinking, but re-reading my post, I do sound like I haven't been paying attention for the last year.  I am glad that burying utilities will happen there.. does anyone have a ballpark number for how much would it cost to extend the burying to the Hillsborough/Morgan intersection?

But if they could come up with a design for Hillsborough/Morgan that 1) saves the big oak tree 2) looks good and not "forced", especially with the nearby Ashe intersection and 3) and works well with whatever is going to replace the Bolton site.

I think it was good for the city to explore a two-way Morgan, and it is better to "step back" from focusing on just this intersection until the Morgan extension studies are finished.  Just as the Oberlin roundabout is important to Hillsborough, so will the Morgan area around Goodnights affect the Hillsborough/Morgan intersection.

[waltergropius]

Go HERE for images of all of PBS+J's alternative schemes for this intersection.  

I can't believe how bullheaded and narrow-sighted this traffic engineering firm is.  Meeting after meeting, they just don't get it.  I have attended several of these meetings only to keep seeing the same things over and over.  The city should fire these guys, IMO.

[Jones133]

equally surprising but happily so is that from Orulz's comments, many people who do not post here even (I know I feel like sometimes UP folks are the only ones paying attention) are really seeing clearly on this....I had forgotten about the Morgan West extension and Morgan South extension (Morgan N-S used to be called Harrision St I think). What a nice grid of connected streets we could have here.

[DPK]

Jones133, on Dec 12 2007, 09:59 PM, said:

I had forgotten about the Morgan West extension and Morgan South extension (Morgan N-S used to be called Harrision St I think). What a nice grid of connected streets we could have here.

I had no idea about it.  I'm digging the idea as if they were to extend the streets, it would take traffic off of Hillsborough onto Western.  Also there wouldn't be so many cars cutting down Ashe and Pullen to get between Western and Hillsborough.

[RaleighRob]

The thing is, if they really wanna try to divert thru-traffic off of Hillsborough, finding new connections to Western is only half of it.  There is a major lack of roads that connect Western with Wade, the other major multilane east-west road.  Coming into town from the West, once you pass Faircloth/Gorman, there are no other roads that connect those two until you're downtown and hit Capital/Dawson/McDowell.   Thus, it becomes harder to avoid Hillsborough if you want to do any north/south movement.  But maybe I'm getting off the topic here.

Personally, after seeing all these designs for the roundabout I'm about to just say forget it...just give us a lighted intersection and time it to the Ashe Ave intersection so that traffic flow is less-interrupted.   Give it wide, well-marked crosswalks and walking signals and I'll be satisfied for the most part.  (Sigh)

[orulz]

RaleighRob, on Dec 13 2007, 10:27 AM, said:

The thing is, if they really wanna try to divert thru-traffic off of Hillsborough, finding new connections to Western is only half of it.  There is a major lack of roads that connect Western with Wade, the other major multilane east-west road.  Coming into town from the West, once you pass Faircloth/Gorman, there are no other roads that connect those two until you're downtown and hit Capital/Dawson/McDowell.   Thus, it becomes harder to avoid Hillsborough if you want to do any north/south movement.  But maybe I'm getting off the topic here.

There actually are some options for going north-south between Western and Wade: Pullen-Oberlin is the big one, and it will work much better when the roundabout at Hillsborough is constructed. Dixie Trail-Dan Allen counts too in my book. Dan Allen has some pretty severe congestion at various times of the day, but Dixie Trail is never really very busy at all.

The major options for heading west out of downtown are:

• Wade. I don't view this as a significant or important route for diverting traffic from Hillsborough; there is limited potential to increase capacity without huge impacts and expense.
  
• Peace/Clark. The fact that Clark is discontinuous between Dixie Trail and Brooks diminishes its value significantly, but then again I don't think I'd be in favor of tearing the neighborhood apart to build a straight-through connection.
  
• Hillsborough. We already know that we don't want to put more traffic on Hillsborough.
  
• Western. This is a suburban-style arterial with some expressway characteristics. I have no problem with projects to increase capacity here. There are still a number of 4-lane segments left on Western; you could turn it into a 6-lane road clear to the Beltline and probably not hear a peep from any neighborhood anywhere. In addition, I believe NCDOT has a long-term plan for an interchange at Avent Ferry, which will mitigate the biggest bottleneck on the road.
  
• And, lest we should forget, I-40. This is one that we seem to have forgotten in our discussion of alternate routes west of Downtown. But there are two projects in the pipe that will make this much more attractive: widening 40 itself between Wade and 440, and widening Lake Wheeler Road to provide a better route to get to 40 in the first place.

But Western remains the most important for diverting traffic from Hillsborough, due to proximity and the potential for connections between the corridors at Morgan and Ashe.

[ChiefJoJo]

orulz, on Dec 13 2007, 11:04 AM, said:

• Western. This is a suburban-style arterial with some expressway characteristics. I have no problem with projects to increase capacity here. There are still a number of 4-lane segments left on Western; you could turn it into a 6-lane road clear to the Beltline and probably not hear a peep from any neighborhood anywhere. In addition, I believe NCDOT has a long-term plan for an interchange at Avent Ferry, which will mitigate the biggest bottleneck on the road.
  
• And, lest we should forget, I-40. This is one that we seem to have forgotten in our discussion of alternate routes west of Downtown. But there are two projects in the pipe that will make this much more attractive: widening 40 itself between Wade and 440, and widening Lake Wheeler Road to provide a better route to get to 40 in the first place.

But Western remains the most important for diverting traffic from Hillsborough, due to proximity and the potential for connections between the corridors at Morgan and Ashe.

I agree.  Western Blvd is option #1, since it's only about 3/4 mile south of Hillsborough in most places, and close enough to have an influence in diversion of local traffic IMO (esp on the NCSU portion of Hillsborough--post roundabouts).  Western approaching DTR at 4 lanes functions quite well with no signals from Avent Ferry to Hunt Dr, but you *might* be able to squeeze in 2 more lanes.  You rightly point out I-40 and Lake Wheeler as well.  I-40 should be widened in Cary by 2010-11 or so and Lake Wheeler might be done whenever the state/city/etc figure out Dix's future (which could be quite a while off).  Even Lake Wheeler isn't a great choice because it is so disconnected from the western DT grid...

People have brought up connecting Morgan St west to Ashe Ave, but I can't imagine that's a good long term solution, other than slightly improving connectivity and viability of various parcel development near Goodnights/Bolton.  Ashe Ave already had traffic calming project done last year where the city added speed humps, bulb outs, a stop sign, and dropped the speed limit from 35 to 25mph... so it's not a good candidate for additional cut-through traffic.  Maybe a Morgan N-S extension to Western/Dix (in one of the Dix Plans?) would help Ashe Ave, but anything crossing the NCRR is going to require a new bridge, which means a $multi-M project.

I think what we are heading towards in the short term is that W. Raleigh residents are going to have to accept that there will be more diversion to Western Blvd & maybe Wade Ave as a result of the de-emphasis of Hillsborough as a primary E-W arterial.  I would recommend introducing either (1) a regular circulator bus along Hillsborough St to and from DTR or (2) increasing frequency of existing CAT services (<headways, real-time info, etc) along the street as a short-term countermeasure.   The STAC has already identified that corridor and I've often felt regular service could capture at least some additional riders.

Longer term (5+ years) there aren't any more roads to feasibly widen in W. Raleigh, and ultimately, I see TTA Rail (BRT?) serving the medium-to-long haul regional travel and a streetcar or other bus cirulator serving intracity travel.

... back on topic a bit, I wonder how all of this is going to affect FWM?  If they already purchased the land ($7M+), I'm sure they don't want to wait too long before proceeding with a project, but not knowing the physical layout of the intersection leaves them a bit in limbo.