115 replies to this topic

[provid]

PBN

[billypc99]

In the picture it looks like a 3-4 story addition and not 10 stories as in prior posts.

[runawayjim]

billypc99, on Jun 4 2007, 05:31 PM, said:

In the picture it looks like a 3-4 story addition and not 10 stories as in prior posts.

i would say 4 or 5 (not that it makes a difference).  the big on on the bottom (which is the equivalent to 2 of the upper ones) and the 3 above that.  the building itself doesn't look to be more than 10 stories, unless the addition was going to be the same height.

[Baines]

Lone Ranger, on Jun 4 2007, 10:54 AM, said:

Apparently the Granoffs have plans to turn Weybosset into their own mini lifestyle center.

I had no idea their holdings in that area were so extensive.

All of which makes me more optimistic about 110's prospects.

I was told a while ago (I thnik BlueChip may have actually announced it somewhere also) that the "W" will be connected to the Arcade as a vital upscale retail element of the project. I am certain that this is when it will be rehabilitated and rented/leased to appropriate tenants. That's why the lack of extended leases for now. In late 2009/early 2010 the Arcade will change dramatically.  

The chapel development and another building is slated to be developed all as part of ths Granoff vison for that 1-2 block area. We need to be patient until 2010 but we will see action from July 2007 on.

[provid]

6-10 are the gray facade. look again

Edited by provid, 04 June 2007 - 04:15 PM.

[Mothra]

What is unfortunate is that people remember the Arcade and how it was even just a few years ago, and they know now that it isn't any place to go, and in two years when this all reopens and folks are all excited, even people who were new to the city then will remember that the Arcade was nothing interesting--that it was basically empty.  

A lot of folks on this board have no problem dissing the lifers, or even the semi-lifers for knowing what they know about the city and sometimes holding on to old feelings about the city, but the truth is that you have to sometimes appease the people who live here too, not just the ones who are passing thru or the new people.

[Garris]

Great news!

I really like that render.  The overall effect of the renovation and new building is something of a taller, slimmer Masonic Temple.  Again, I think this is a huge net overall positive for that area of the city.  

One thing I love about the Hampton Inn/W location (as I do the Hotel Providence and Masonic Temple locations) is that people who stay in those buildings can step outside their doors and immediately have things to do and see.  In that area, they'll have the Arcade eventually, shops, galleries (RISD by Design, Picture This), and restaurants within steps of the front door, to say nothing of the River, Waterfire, and future 195 park.  Similarly, people can step out from the Hotel Providence to the Westminster Shops and PPAC (and hopefully something of worth in the Grant's Block space in the future).  At the Masonic, you have the Mall, future Waterplace restaurants, GTech restaurants, VMA, and the amazing view of the city from there.  

These "what I did within a few blocks of my hotel" experiences are often all people who visit a city get of its "character," and I bet positive word of mouths about Providence will spread dramatically more than they even do now because people will be staying in these establishments, and not in Warwick, Seekonk, or a Radisson squeezed between 195 and an off-ramp on the East Side.  (This is actually a problem, I think, for the Biltmore.  You step outside to Burnside and Kennedy Plaza right now, or the Projo garage in the other direction...  In the future, Washington will be a bigger draw, but still...).  

After that part of Westminster comes to life, all that's left to give that street a huge boost is opening up Cathedral Square to the West Side and filling in some of the holes in the Western Westminster streetscape that are now parking lots and empty retail frontage.  

Also, driving by "RISD by Design" today, I've got to think that business and all of the establishments getting in "on the ground floor" there near the 110/W/Hampton Inn site must be thrilled.  

Mothra, on Jun 4 2007, 07:22 PM, said:

...but the truth is that you have to sometimes appease the people who live here too, not just the ones who are passing thru or the new people...

I frankly have no idea what this means, or, even more importantly, why it's necessary.  

My understanding of the Arcade is that, from the time the first brick was set onward, that it's never been a consistent financial success and has continued to survive as much as, if not more than, because of its beauty than its ultimate monitary worth.

Because the 1840's, or the 1930's, or the 1980's, or 2007 might have been bad years for the arcade, do we need to "appease" the people of all those time periods and the "people who live here" today (which I guess doesn't include, what, people who have recently moved here or may be studying here?) and say, "Stop, Blue Chips folks!  Look at this history, don't bother doing anything...  And if you do bother, people of Providence, don't give it your business because, well, look at this history!"  

Should people treat the Masonic Temple hotel or Hotel Providence the same way?  If your answer is "no," then what was the point?  If your answer is "yes," then why should you, or anyone, care?  Learn from history surely, but I don't like using it as a bludgeon to prevent anything optimistic or aspirational from happening.

[Off-topic rant mode off]

- Garris

Edited by Garris, 04 June 2007 - 07:00 PM.

[runawayjim]

provid, on Jun 4 2007, 06:15 PM, said:

6-10 are the gray facade. look again

interesting... i thought that was a different building.

Mothra, on Jun 4 2007, 07:22 PM, said:

What is unfortunate is that people remember the Arcade and how it was even just a few years ago, and they know now that it isn't any place to go, and in two years when this all reopens and folks are all excited, even people who were new to the city then will remember that the Arcade was nothing interesting--that it was basically empty.  

A lot of folks on this board have no problem dissing the lifers, or even the semi-lifers for knowing what they know about the city and sometimes holding on to old feelings about the city, but the truth is that you have to sometimes appease the people who live here too, not just the ones who are passing thru or the new people.

i'm not sure what you're talking about.  many of us newcomers to the city may not remember what the arcade used to be but have hope for what it can become because we're now lifers.  i have no intentions of leaving providence.  the lifers we tend to diss are those who talk trash about the city for the sake of talking trash.  they're generally people who don't care about the city or don't want to think of providence as a great place and don't want to see the changes.

[CtownMikey]

http://www.projo.com...CH.3435d89.html



Joining in late 04' and hearing about how 05' was a real surprise in the number of announcements and how it was pretty rare.. its refreshing to see 2007 have more proposals come along with BCBS, Hampton Inn, and have reassurance that W hotel, Sierra Suites, and The Dynamo house will all start soon.

Edited by CtownMikey, 04 June 2007 - 10:18 PM.

[KRC]

Mothra, on Jun 4 2007, 07:22 PM, said:

A lot of folks on this board have no problem dissing the lifers, or even the semi-lifers for knowing what they know about the city and sometimes holding on to old feelings about the city, but the truth is that you have to sometimes appease the people who live here too, not just the ones who are passing thru or the new people.

I'd agree with you on that except for one big thing, it was "lifers" who abandond the city and it is "lifers" who tend to twist the past and glorify things that weren't all that great...such as Cianci for example.  I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but how many "lifers" even went to the Arcade on a regular basis anyway?  Not many.  Just like I'm sure all those posters on the ProJo you guys speak of haven't stepped foot in Providence in years and won't.  Sorry if dissing lifers seems harsh, but it's well deserved.  Lord knows they certainly take pride in dissing anyone who thinks positively about Providence.  

The truth is the city does not need to appeal to lifers at all. Those who want to come on board (and there are many natives who have) great.  If not, who cares?  They weren't here when the city started to turn around, they aren't here today and they certainly won't be here tomorrow.  I'd like to think otherwise, but it's just not going to happen.  Let Lazy Lucy and Cranky Harry sit in Linclon and diss on the city all they like on ProJo.  It won't change a thing.  It's folks like us (you included) that make the difference.  Things are changing.  You can see it here when you have someone like CtownMikey posting here and visitng downtown yet his parents don't.  Forget the past.  Move forward.  It's the only way.

[Mothra]

forgetting the past is never a terribly good idea. what is that saying "those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it?"

All i'm saying is that the damage done by leaving the arcade empty is unfortunate, when it could be working towards a vibrant retail center BEFORE all these buildings and hotels and condos get built and that is a better idea than keeping it empty.

I remember the Arcade as a place to get a great sandwich or eyeglasses, or visit my bank or buy clothing or jewelry or games. RI is made up of a lot of people who aren't going anywhere. They aren't leaving, whether you wish they would or not. Many of them go downtown and lots are people who live in RI are cheering for Providence's renaissance, and I'm suggesting that those people (not the ones you stalk on the stupid Projo polls,)the lifers and supporters who didn't abandon Providence still want things besides renders and printed fence fabric boasting a new project to feel good about. They want to know that the things that they supported in the past, will still be there in the future, and not "traded up" or mothballed for some resident to be named later.

You are certainly welcome to your opinions on the subject, but just because yours is different from mine, doesn't mean that mine is wrong.

Edited by Mothra, 05 June 2007 - 06:35 AM.

[runawayjim]

Mothra, on Jun 5 2007, 08:31 AM, said:

forgetting the past is never a terribly good idea. what is that saying "those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it?"

All i'm saying is that the damage done by leaving the arcade empty is unfortunate, when it could be working towards a vibrant retail center BEFORE all these buildings and hotels and condos get built and that is a better idea than keeping it empty.

I remember the Arcade as a place to get a great sandwich or eyeglasses, or visit my bank or buy clothing or jewelry or games. RI is made up of a lot of people who aren't going anywhere. They aren't leaving, whether you wish they would or not. Many of them go downtown and lots are people who live in RI are cheering for Providence's renaissance, and I'm suggesting that those people (not the ones you stalk on the stupid Projo polls,)the lifers and supporters who didn't abandon Providence still want things besides renders and printed fence fabric boasting a new project to feel good about. They want to know that the things that they supported in the past, will still be there in the future, and not "traded up" or mothballed for some resident to be named later.

You are certainly welcome to your opinions on the subject, but just because yours is different from mine, doesn't mean that mine is wrong.

i think you are hearing most of us wrong.  we don't want simple renders and printed fence fabric and promises of great things to come.  we want action.  while it sucks that the arcade is being allowed to slowly empty out, this will change, probably quickly, once 110/W opens up and once this hotel is done.  while i work too far from downtown to see what the arcade is like during lunchtime, i have been there within an hour of closing time and it's a ghost town.  sure, some places are still "open", but they're getting ready to close up.  those "lifers" you talk about and the "lifers" we talk about are different people.  the ones you talk about live in the city and enjoy the city.  the ones we talk about sit at home in warwick, lincoln, barrington, south county, etc and just complain and talk about how bad the city is, regardless of whether or not they've actually visited it in the last 10 years.

the people we're talking about don't remember the arcade as a great place to go.  they have never gone there.

change is inevitable.  there's no way around it.  the things you supported may not be there in the future, for better or for worse.  it may be the doing of some awful landlord, it may be the doing of some developer, it may be the doing of the city, it may be the doing of the owner not able to afford to keep the shop open even if the overhead hasn't changed.  maybe there's just not enough customers as in the case with many independent record stores.  maybe there's just not enough interest.  just because a handful of people enjoyed something doesn't mean it will always be there for you and that's not necessarily the fault of some developer or landlord or even the city.  it could be the simple fact that fads change and people change.

as for the arcade, 110/W seems to be a definite "go" at this point.  this new hotel seems to be a definite "go".  up until this point, there was a question as to whether or not there'd be residents or people just staying in that part of downtown.  people don't venture down there at night.  with those hotels/condos come online in the next couple years, there will be people in that area all times of the day and night and even weekends.  these residents and visitors will be able to support the arcade better than the lunch crowd that supports it now.  the arcade isn't going anywhere, but some of the shops in it might.  i don't see that as a bad thing.  it's just change.

[dgreco]

KRC, on Jun 5 2007, 05:58 AM, said:

I'd agree with you on that except for one big thing, it was "lifers" who abandond the city and it is "lifers" who tend to twist the past and glorify things that weren't all that great...such as Cianci for example. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but how many "lifers" even went to the Arcade on a regular basis anyway? Not many. Just like I'm sure all those posters on the ProJo you guys speak of haven't stepped foot in Providence in years and won't. Sorry if dissing lifers seems harsh, but it's well deserved. Lord knows they certainly take pride in dissing anyone who thinks positively about Providence.

The truth is the city does not need to appeal to lifers at all. Those who want to come on board (and there are many natives who have) great. If not, who cares? They weren't here when the city started to turn around, they aren't here today and they certainly won't be here tomorrow. I'd like to think otherwise, but it's just not going to happen. Let Lazy Lucy and Cranky Harry sit in Linclon and diss on the city all they like on ProJo. It won't change a thing. It's folks like us (you included) that make the difference. Things are changing. You can see it here when you have someone like CtownMikey posting here and visitng downtown yet his parents don't. Forget the past. Move forward. It's the only way.

Like I have said before, my parents are under the impression that Providence is still the worst ghetto in America to live.  I am also sure that parts in Lower South Providence, Mt. Pleasant, Silverlake, Manton and others that do have a "horrible" section.  But the problem is these lifers are scared to go into providence still, they think that besides the mall it is not safe to really walk around downtown unless it is crowded. My mother grew in Providence when it was ok I guess you could say, and it did get "bad" especially to a italian family, and she never really got over the perceptions.

The one example I can give is I went to Tazza for Brunch with my Mother and girlfriend last sunday, my mom honestly was nervous walking on westmeinster st., she did not want to go by the "alleys" and did not want to walk all the way down to the arcade and 110/W because there weren't people around.  Eventually we got her to walk, and go in some of the new shops like Elsa Arms and a few others I can not remember the names of.  Anyway after walknig around and realizing Providence really has changed she loves it now, and went shopping with her girlfriends (who were also scared) the past fews days, and no longer thinks downtown is the shell of hell.

The point of the story, I think these lifers really do think it SUCKS in providence, and what they need is people to show them that it does not.  I am also sure a lot of these lifers who hate providence do not have children or family who do know a lot about providence to get them downtown to show them that it is becoming a great city.  I feel the problem is there and that overtime these people will get over their fears.  Eventually all the college students, and young professionals who already spend time in this city, will need to buy homes, or condos, or something and they will no longer be scared of the area and people will be living in those areas and really hopefully help transform a lot of the city.  By transform I mean people who really care about where they live and to make sure it looks like a great place to live.

[CtownMikey]

the article I posted says that the developers have plans to renovate to Arcade...

[CtownMikey]

KRC, on Jun 5 2007, 05:58 AM, said:

You can see it here when you have someone like CtownMikey posting here and visitng downtown yet his parents don't.  Forget the past.  Move forward.  It's the only way.

My mom actually grew up off of Fed hill and when she had to pick me up from PPAC last week... we drove down Westminster (10:30 a.m.) and she liked what she saw happening... but she says she misses when the street was closed off and she could walk around with her mom and family when she was a child..... my grandmother and great aunt and everyone in their 60s/70s have also brought up the Department stores on Westminster and how it was so nice. (I'm guessing this was all around the early sixties)

Anyways the point is that I think many RI'ers need a push to have their views changed about their capital city. Everyone knows of what used to be on Westminster and they know that it has all since closed down. For some reason they dont really know about the revival.. or just dont believe it

[runawayjim]

CtownMikey, on Jun 5 2007, 10:06 AM, said:

For some reason they dont really know about the revival.. or just dont believe it

or don't want to believe it...

[Cotuit]

The people who are bellyaching about the Arcade being empty should actually take a minute to visit it. I have lunch there all the time. One may notice the empty storefronts are on the 110/W side, wonder why that is?

The reports of the death of the Arcade have been greatly exaggerated.

[Garris]

Everyone makes great points.  

To expand and add further, I think that for a substantial portion of the caucasian and some other populations, any given area (be it city, suburb, exurb, etc) that contains a substantial minority (especially Hispanic and African American) population will always be viewed as undesirable.  Only recently I was talking to someone in NY state who decried that a small town near where I grew up (population of about 10,000) had gone "downhill" since I'd left in the early 90's.  When I asked why, his answer was, "The Hispanic population has really gone up substantially."  That's all...  Amazing.  For a lot of people, the very prominence of minority populations here will brand the city as "dangerous" and "undesirable," whether such reputations are deserved or not.

Also, as was pointed out in the comment above about a mother fearing the "alleys" on Westminster, there is at least a full post WWII generation that grew up in an era where many large cities were genuinely dangerous, with reasons to fear those alleys.  I remember growing up and what NYC was like in the pre-Guliani age, and can remember fearing those alleys myself.  Those generations may be largely lost, as those perceptions (reinforced by decades of resultant suburban isolation and living) will be near impossible to shake.  Like someone who had a terrible Chevy Vega in 1974 and has refused to look at a GM product since, no matter how good they are today, the damage might be irreparable and it may take another generation of Americans with good experiences in cities (college, working, living, visiting, etc) to reverse the effect.  

Mothra, on Jun 5 2007, 08:31 AM, said:

RI is made up of a lot of people who aren't going anywhere. They aren't leaving, whether you wish they would or not.

They want to know that the things that they supported in the past, will still be there in the future, and not "traded up" or mothballed for some resident to be named later.

You are certainly welcome to your opinions on the subject, but just because yours is different from mine, doesn't mean that mine is wrong.

Some of those things they supported in the past (for example, the Westminster Department stores, or mom and pop clothing or shoe stores downtown) are never coming back and likely will never be there in the future and will indeed be "traded" to something very different.  It isn't because we hate them, or because Providence is a bad place, or because "residents to be named later" are being catered to, but because huge economic and social trends both regionally and nationally (and even internationally) are driving those changes.  Almost nowhere in America has non-mall affiliated downtown department stores.  The mom and pop shops and stores of the type that used to be in downtown Providence have vanished from almost every town and city retail center in America.  The same changes that downtown Providence is seeing are happening everywhere from Portland, OR to Portland, ME and everyplace in between.  I personally can't think of a single thriving American urban center that is doing it as anything other than a slightly upscale, hip destination location for dining, entertainment, and retail.

Those people put off by those changes can shun Providence because of them (which it appears they often are) or embrace change.  Either way, the architects of Providence's future can't cater to them, because much larger economic and social forces just won't and can't allow it.

- Garris

PS: Don't be put off by good debate.  No one (myself included) is saying you are wrong, some of us ourselves just have different opinions than you.

Edited by Garris, 05 June 2007 - 10:43 AM.

[Cotuit]

CtownMikey, on Jun 5 2007, 12:06 AM, said:

I'm disappointed that the public plaza will go, but prefer the covered driveway under the arch to an open air driveway which is what I had feared.

[Garris]

Cotuit, on Jun 5 2007, 12:42 PM, said:

I'm disappointed that the public plaza will go, but prefer the covered driveway under the arch to an open air driveway which is what I had feared.

My bold prediction is that the arch will become a favorite downtown architectural detail of many shortly after it's done.  

- Garris