160 replies to this topic

[cosmo1]

We live in downtown Providence and moved here because we thought Providence is a gem.  We also, liked the diversity and the changes to the area that have been occuring however we got more than what we bargained for and we were wondering if anyone had some construction suggestions.

We live above a restaurant ( a fact we did not know upon purchasing) which is open until 1:00 a.m. to 2:00 a.m. and the issue we have is one of sound coming from their jukebox.  Living in a city, there is plenty of noise however we did not count on noise being blasted from a juekbox late at night from 11:00 p.m. on and it is coming into our unit in the form of loud vibrations making it impossible to sleep.

Has anyone ever had this issue and outside of moving, does anyone have constructive suggestions on how to overcome this.  We have written to our condo association and some are very sympathetic but in general, where it does not affect them since they are not above the restaurant, to the association, this is not problematic.

We have tried earplugs, sound machines but unfortunately, it is not applicable to noise coming from below the restaurant. We have tried talking to the owners but are given excuse after excuse and all we are looking for is peace in our home - that's it.

Any constructive suggestions would be appreciated.  Looking to sleep, sometimes.  Cosmo 1

[runawayjim]

join the party!  

sorry, i couldn't resist.  that really sucks, and unfortunately, i don't have any suggestions for you.

[matt]

Is the noise you're experiencing primarily bass, or can you actually hear the music coming thru the floor?
I ask because low frequency sounds (bass) will travel through the structure of the house by actually vibrating the joists and studs, where higher frequency sounds will pass through walls and floors.  

There are different techniques for deadening different audio frequencies.  So, is it primarily the thumping of the juke that's keeping you up, or is it the music itself where you can hear instruments/vocals/etc?

welcome to the forum!

-Matt

[runawayjim]

one suggestion i will make is that you could do wall to wall carpeting with a thicker carpet and a good thick carpet pad underneath.  that might deaden some of the higher frequency sounds.  the bass might be a bit more difficult to block.  perhaps the condo association could try to get the club owner to add some sound proofing in the walls and ceiling, though that might require some monetary input from them.

if the bass is rattling things, it's quite possible the club just needs to turn down the bass a bit.  although, for some reason, people seem to like lots of bass.  

the last possibility might be noise ordinances and to see if they might be violating something.  that should probably be the last resort though as they could easily make your life very miserable if they know people.

Edited by runawayjim, 07 July 2007 - 06:38 PM.

[Mothra]

You might call and ask the police what the legal sound limit is and make sure that the restaurant isn't violating it before you spend money trying to soundproof your unit.

[cosmo1]

matt, on Jul 7 2007, 05:49 PM, said:

Is the noise you're experiencing primarily bass, or can you actually hear the music coming thru the floor?
I ask because low frequency sounds (bass) will travel through the structure of the house by actually vibrating the joists and studs, where higher frequency sounds will pass through walls and floors.

There are different techniques for deadening different audio frequencies. So, is it primarily the thumping of the juke that's keeping you up, or is it the music itself where you can hear instruments/vocals/etc?

welcome to the forum!

-Matt

We are not sure - as sometimes it might be bass sounds and sometimes, you can actually hear the music.  We have thought of getting a sound technician to analyze the problem. Thank you.

[matt]

cosmo1, on Jul 8 2007, 05:10 AM, said:

We are not sure - as sometimes it might be bass sounds and sometimes, you can actually hear the music.  We have thought of getting a sound technician to analyze the problem. Thank you.

Mothra has a good point.  The first step may be to make sure they are not violating any rules.

As far as sound deadening an apartment, that becomes a little tricky without doing a lot of reconstruction.  Jim is right that thicker carpets and padding can help a lot, but to do much more may require serious modification.  For example, the best way to stop low frequencies from traveling is to physically separate the structures.  So, if the sound was coming up through the floor, a barrier between the floor joists and your floor would help - a barrier in this case would be something that would physically separate your subfloor and allow it to float above the joists.  Easier said than done, I know, but these are common practices in sound studios.  

In walls, there are a few options.  One is to alternate the studs so that the inside wall of a room is on different studs from the outside wall of the room.  Another trick is to have a layer of homasote between your drywall and the studs to absorb some higher frequencies.  Finally, sound absorbing insulation within the walls can cut down a lot of mid-to-high frequency sound.  

This is all probably way more involved than you care to pursue, but perhaps the restaurant owner would be willing to install some sound deadening materials on his/her ceiling (acoustic tiling or insulation).  Maybe you could work out a deal?

Edited by matt, 08 July 2007 - 10:25 AM.

[Mothra]

I just read the first post over again and I see that you didn't know there was a restaurant there when you bought the condo, so I'm going to assume that it moved in after you did. I'm surprised that there's nothing in your condo assocition, or deed or anything that discusses quiet enjoyment of your unit. I think I know exactly where your condo is btw, and I'd be pretty upset with the noise and vibrations too.  If the restaurant and its juke box have adversely affected the value of your unit (or if in order for it to retain its value you have to spend another 100K making it quiet), I would think you would have some sort of leverage to push for some noise proofing on the first floor.

[cosmo1]

Mothra, on Jul 8 2007, 11:24 AM, said:

I just read the first post over again and I see that you didn't know there was a restaurant there when you bought the condo, so I'm going to assume that it moved in after you did. I'm surprised that there's nothing in your condo assocition, or deed or anything that discusses quiet enjoyment of your unit. I think I know exactly where your condo is btw, and I'd be pretty upset with the noise and vibrations too. If the restaurant and its juke box have adversely affected the value of your unit (or if in order for it to retain its value you have to spend another 100K making it quiet), I would think you would have some sort of leverage to push for some noise proofing on the first floor.

We have appealed to our condo association and to date, they have not done anything.  We have had a few individuals witness the noise and they are trying to get the restaurant owners to comply.  Also, this has been going on since they opened and no we did not know a restaurant was going in when we bought our unit otherwise, we would not have bought here.  We did ask at the time of purchase what was going in but we were told it would not be a restaurant.  Thank you for your concern.  Cosmo 1

[runawayjim]

cosmo1, on Jul 8 2007, 03:43 PM, said:

We have appealed to our condo association and to date, they have not done anything.  We have had a few individuals witness the noise and they are trying to get the restaurant owners to comply.  Also, this has been going on since they opened and no we did not know a restaurant was going in when we bought our unit otherwise, we would not have bought here.  We did ask at the time of purchase what was going in but we were told it would not be a restaurant.  Thank you for your concern.  Cosmo 1

there's a difference between a restaurant (which i am sure you wouldn't have minded a normal restaurant) and a bar that plays really loud music.

something you may want to try is the downcity neighborhood association and the downcity merchants association.  you might be able to appeal to them to get this restaurant to comply.

[cosmo1]

runawayjim, on Jul 8 2007, 02:43 PM, said:

there's a difference between a restaurant (which i am sure you wouldn't have minded a normal restaurant) and a bar that plays really loud music.

something you may want to try is the downcity neighborhood association and the downcity merchants association. you might be able to appeal to them to get this restaurant to comply.

Thank you for your concern. I agree with what you are saying and we are members of the DNA and they have tried to help us.  Cosmo 1

[Cotuit]

Oh, duh, I know where you live. Yes, they do jack the music pretty loud there at a certain point in the night. It seems, rather than tearing up your floor to separate the floor from the ceiling, your new neighbor should do work to insulate their ceiling to see if it helps. You were there first after all. Did the condo association get any assurances from the tenant before they moved in? Are they a member of the association (they bought the space from what I understand, correct?)?

[cosmo1]

We were given assurances that soundproofing would not be an issue however it is.  We have written to our condo association and are hoping for our sake they will resolve this.  Agree with your comments. Thank you and we hope they will do something for us. Cosmo 1

[cosmo1]

I am very appreciative of everyone's response  to my last updates and would like to thank everyone.  I am researching some of your suggestions. (see previous article - Sound Issues from a Jukebox)

It is apparent that the Owner of the Restaurant will not add additional insulation.  Our Condominium Association, where they are not directly above the restaurant is very slow, responding  because some of the unit owners are away, they will probably, wait until late August or early fall which is unbearable considering the situation  we are in. Also,for some of the unit owners, this is not their primary residence but a second place however there are enough full time residents living here.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with the Condominium Association or has anyone ever experienced this type of situation in getting the Association to cooperate?  As previously stated, they are not directly impacted but I believe one condo unit's problems are  everyone's problem and being a good neighbor is paramount.

Sleepless in Providence.  Cosmo 1   

[Mothra]

Cosmo, you should be looking at all the bylaws of your condo association with a very fine toothed comb to see what you have as leverage.   I think if I was in your shoes I'd be talking with a lawyer about whether there is any way there's a legal action in my future.  Unless you didn't read all the paperwork you got when you bought your Condo, I would find it hard to believe that there isn't something actionable here. You clearly are not able to have quiet enjoyment of your home; there was NOT a sports bar / restaurant on the first floor when you bought the condo (although there used to be a very quiet jazz bar there so clearly the use was approved long before you moved in although I am not sure that Pelham House served food.) If you haven't already, I would make sure that on the loudest night there's a police officer taking decible readings on that Juke box.

Good Luck.

[cosmo1]

Mothra, on Jul 14 2007, 03:01 PM, said:

Cosmo, you should be looking at all the bylaws of your condo association with a very fine toothed comb to see what you have as leverage. I think if I was in your shoes I'd be talking with a lawyer about whether there is any way there's a legal action in my future. Unless you didn't read all the paperwork you got when you bought your Condo, I would find it hard to believe that there isn't something actionable here. You clearly are not able to have quiet enjoyment of your home; there was NOT a sports bar / restaurant on the first floor when you bought the condo (although there used to be a very quiet jazz bar there so clearly the use was approved long before you moved in although I am not sure that Pelham House served food.) If you haven't already, I would make sure that on the loudest night there's a police officer taking decible readings on that Juke box.

Good Luck.

I am in the process of doing what you suggested.  The police were called 4 times one week ago but of course, they said there was no issue or so the restaurant informed me. Thanks - Cosmo 1

[urbaninterest]

I am in total agreement with you.  If you live in a condo setting, one would think that you should all get together and come up with some kind of an understanding.  Every condo association I'm sure has a specific amount of meetings that need to be set for the year and I also believe that if you make any changes to the original agreement such as putting up a sign or going from a "deli" to a night club situation that it would need to go through an association vote.  hmmm?  I'm confused, is there one person running your condo association?  How does one owner make the decisions of the other owners?  Do they own more units to give them more votes?  

cosmo1, on Jul 14 2007, 10:51 AM, said:

I am very appreciative of everyone's response to my last updates and would like to thank everyone. I am researching some of your suggestions. (see previous article - Sound Issues from a Jukebox)

It is apparent that the Owner of the Restaurant will not add additional insulation. Our Condominium Association, where they are not directly above the restaurant is very slow, responding because some of the unit owners are away, they will probably, wait until late August or early fall which is unbearable considering the situation we are in. Also,for some of the unit owners, this is not their primary residence but a second place however there are enough full time residents living here.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with the Condominium Association or has anyone ever experienced this type of situation in getting the Association to cooperate? As previously stated, they are not directly impacted but I believe one condo unit's problems are everyone's problem and being a good neighbor is paramount.

Sleepless in Providence. Cosmo 1   

[runawayjim]

cosmo1, on Jul 14 2007, 05:08 PM, said:

I am in the process of doing what you suggested.  The police were called 4 times one week ago but of course, they said there was no issue or so the restaurant informed me. Thanks - Cosmo 1

if the restaurant is informing you that there is no issue resulting from the police that came because you called, there's a serious problem.  that's a conflict of interest and it sounds like the police know the owners of the restaurant.

if you haven't already, i would write a letter to your city councilperson.  it can't hurt to just let him/her know what's going on.

[cosmo1]

urbaninterest, on Jul 16 2007, 08:08 AM, said:

I am in total agreement with you. If you live in a condo setting, one would think that you should all get together and come up with some kind of an understanding. Every condo association I'm sure has a specific amount of meetings that need to be set for the year and I also believe that if you make any changes to the original agreement such as putting up a sign or going from a "deli" to a night club situation that it would need to go through an association vote. hmmm? I'm confused, is there one person running your condo association? How does one owner make the decisions of the other owners? Do they own more units to give them more votes?

I agree however at the time, the developer had the controlling interest in the number of units he owned which is no longer true.  We have asked the Condo President on numerous occassions to call an emergency meeting but have been told with some people away, this might not happen until late August or September which is totally unacceptable.  There is one person running the condo association and has designated someone else to deal with us.  They have tried very hard but the Condo President is really the one to make the decisions and we have mentioned this to him.  We have asked him to help us many times and to date, our e-mails are just not answered.

Also, from viewing Urban Planet.org, we have learnt there was a Design Review Committee Meeting sometime ago and we believe there were no residents from this building present.  The reason for this is that we were never notified of this meeting otherwise we would have gone and voiced our concerns.  Cosmo 1

[cosmo1]

runawayjim, on Jul 16 2007, 09:39 AM, said:

if the restaurant is informing you that there is no issue resulting from the police that came because you called, there's a serious problem. that's a conflict of interest and it sounds like the police know the owners of the restaurant.

if you haven't already, i would write a letter to your city councilperson. it can't hurt to just let him/her know what's going on.

They must know the restaurant owners as we have noticed their police cars parked out front on some occassions.  We have informed our City Council person who is very helpful and sympathetic and we will keep going with this until there is some resolution.  Everyone is entitled to the quiet enjoyment of their home and we will go with this until this issue is resolved.  Thank you. Cosmo 1