288 replies to this topic

[ChiefJoJo]

Terrific!  

Cary developer Gregg Sandreuter and Cherokee Investment Partners of Raleigh want to build a 38-story, eco-friendly mix of shops, hotel rooms and residences in Raleigh's reviving downtown.

It's part of a two-tower plan called Edison. The second tower would rise 24 stories. If approved by city planners, it would be the latest step in the city's efforts to turn a 9-to-5 government town into a hub of 24-7 activity.

Although it's not specified, I interpret that the 38-story tower is condos over hotel over ground floor retail (since high-rise condos will sell very well), and the 24-story building is all office over retail.  Depending on floorplates, you could build 500k sf out of 24 floors.  Since their was no announcement of a third building, I assume they are not building on top of the parking deck, but that air rights could be utilized at a much later date (I hope).  As big as it is, that deck probably takes up an acre or more of land, which leaves "only" about just over two acres for each of the two towers.

Cherokee's involvement is a HUGE plus, as they probably pushed for LEED certification, which is another great thing about this project.  I assume that the floors would be larger for LEED as some have said.

I wonder if Morgan Stanley could be thinking about this?  I doubt it since they aren't moving a corporate HQ and probably would not want to wait until 2012 to occupy office space.

On a side note, I absolutely can't believe some people are complaining about this already.  

[capitalapts]

ChiefJoJo, on Jul 18 2007, 11:37 AM, said:

Terrific!  

Cary developer Gregg Sandreuter and Cherokee Investment Partners of Raleigh want to build a 38-story, eco-friendly mix of shops, hotel rooms and residences in Raleigh's reviving downtown.

It's part of a two-tower plan called Edison. The second tower would rise 24 stories. If approved by city planners, it would be the latest step in the city's efforts to turn a 9-to-5 government town into a hub of 24-7 activity.

Although it's not specified, I interpret that the 38-story tower is condos over hotel over ground floor retail (since high-rise condos will sell very well), and the 24-story building is all office over retail.  Depending on floorplates, you could build 500k sf out of 24 floors.  Since their was no announcement of a third building, I assume they are not building on top of the parking deck, but that air rights could be utilized at a much later date (I hope).  As big as it is, that deck probably takes up an acre or more of land, which leaves "only" about just over two acres for each of the two towers.

Cherokee's involvement is a HUGE plus, as they probably pushed for LEED certification, which is another great thing about this project.  I assume that the floors would be larger for LEED as some have said.

I wonder if Morgan Stanley could be thinking about this?  I doubt it since they aren't moving a corporate HQ and probably would not want to wait until 2012 to occupy office space.

On a side note, I absolutely can't believe some people are complaining about this already.  

A big skyscraper in a downtown setting-what a novel idea!

Good news, but at this point I don't know what to make of the condo market downtown.  That place over on St. Mary's decided to go all rental due to a lack of pre-sales (as I understand it) but now this?  Also, doesn't a single own about half of the units in the Hudson (a very sweet project IMHO) and just rents them out?   To me this suggests a lack of a market (the market being individual owners to buy the condos).  I just wonder what metrics are used to forecast the condo market given the above.  

I make a pretty darn reasonable salary and I work downtown yet I am woefully unable to afford a condo down here.  That's not right, seeing as condos are ideal for younger single guys like myself.  There is no way I'm paying $225K+ for a place that's smaller than my apartment now, and the Edison condos figure to be at least that for sure.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Aren't the developers supposed to be presenting there proposel to the city today for this? The N&O story was just a leak correct?  

[raleightransplant]

This is great news!  The fact that this is two decent buildings rather than one is exciting for the downtown center...retail in that area would be a home run.  As for building height...meh.  It's all relative, really.  38 stories is wonderful, and when you're dealing with a second or third tier market (I'm not saying anything about Raleigh---I consider Denver and Tampa to be lower than 1st tier cities)---building height is always relative.  I mean, build 60 stories if you want--you'll still be wanting when you compare to truly huge cities.  To most people (or non-UP'ers) building height isn't even really considered past pure aesthetics.  Is there a new skyline in Raleigh with really great streetlife and beautiful architecture?  Does this create a properous and positive image of the city?  If the answer to that is "yes"---which as you'll find WILL be the answer, there's no need to lament the fact that it's under 40 stories.

Look where we're headed relative to 5 years ago, when there was NOTHING new going up and sprawl was where all the growth was going in Raleigh.  Congrats to Raleigh for wanting to grow in to the city it's destined to become.

[DanRNC]

I'm taking a wait and see approach to this one. If this hinges on a corporate tenant you might as well write it off as the Raleigh Chamber may be one of the more incompetent organizations in business recruiting.

[ChiefJoJo]

Quote

Aren't the developers supposed to be presenting there proposel to the city today for this? The N&O story was just a leak correct?

Jack Hagel of the N&O interviewed Sandreuter for the story.

DanRNC, on Jul 18 2007, 01:08 PM, said:

I'm taking a wait and see approach to this one. If this hinges on a corporate tenant you might as well write it off as the Raleigh Chamber may be one of the more incompetent organizations in business recruiting.

Yet still companies keep moving to DTR: RBC, Capital Bank, Cherokee, Stewart-Eng, etc... DRA released that in 2006, 150k sf of office space was filled that was vacant in 2005.  That's not bad at all, and there certainly isn't any large contiguous space that a corpartate tenant would be able to occupy.  Site 1 is closest to filling this slot and it's not even under construction yet.

[raleightransplant]

DanRNC, on Jul 18 2007, 01:08 PM, said:

I'm taking a wait and see approach to this one. If this hinges on a corporate tenant you might as well write it off as the Raleigh Chamber may be one of the more incompetent organizations in business recruiting.

I do hear you on that.  I guess I'm going to take the optimistic approach and pray that Sandreuter has the connections that can make this corporate tenant happen.  I think Raleigh's certainly on the map nationally at this point, and unlike 10 years ago or so---I don't think it's a reach to see some pretty heavy-hitters coming in to the downtown market.  I'm hoping for the best, so we'll see.

[DanRNC]

Quote

Yet still companies keep moving to DTR: RBC, Capital Bank, Cherokee, Stewart-Eng, etc... DRA released that in 2006, 150k sf of office space was filled that was vacant in 2005.

With the exception of RBC, these are small fry. With the economic boom in the region it is absolutely outrageous that DT Raleigh cannot snag a large corporate presence. The conservative attitude has definitely been detrimental. Its like...we'll wait and see; look, here come some business, well I don't know..., uhhh, (some vasilating) and ultimately, oh there it goes (moving truck drives by the city).  No killer instinct on the powers that be in Raleigh. I predict a large pile of dirt for a long time on this one based on Sandreuter's comments and timeline.

[ncwebguy]

By naming it Edison, as in inventor of the lightbulb Thomas Alva Edison, do Sandreuter and Cherokee hope to lure Progress Energy (or a new merged energy concern) to the office tower?  Or maybe Cree, although I don't think they are large enough to need that much office space yet.

Heck, maybe BB&T or First Citizens will follow RBC Centura's lead and make a splash in North Carolina's "other" banking city, since Wachovia and BoA are entrenched in Charlotte.  Or banks from other parts of the country (or world) like Chase, Citigroup, Wells Fargo, WaMu,  HSBC, etc. will catch on to everything going on in the area and want in on the action.

2012 is only five years away.  By then Site 1 and maybe Reynolds @ 300 Hillsborough will be 75% occupied, and there won't be any large contiguous space for a company to move into.  The CC will have been open for four years and attracted several businesses.  There are only four office buildings in a serious stage of development downtown right now -- RBC (mostly spoken for) The Hillsborough  (only partial office), the L building (209 West Davie, potentially Wake County office space), and Site 1, which has yet to break ground.

The future need for office space downtown depends on if the 150k sq ft of space absorbed last year was a blip or the beginning of a trend.  If it drops to only 100k/year needed for the next five years, that is still 500,000 sq ft needed.  If the 150k/year rate is maintaned, the 750k needed in five years would be more than the four projects mentioned above, making the Edison's tower necessary.

But there are a lot of other factors -- US economy, the chamber of commerce, etc. -- that could wipe out any plans.

[DanRNC]

Quote

By naming it Edison, as in inventor of the lightbulb Thomas Alva Edison, do Sandreuter and Cherokee hope to lure Progress Energy (or a new merged energy concern) to the office tower?

Maybe the best bet especially with the name. A utilities merger would take a while to clear regulatory hurdles.

[shiftgreen]

orulz, on Jul 18 2007, 10:01 AM, said:

I'm not sick of it at all. I don't care. As a matter of fact, why does it make a difference whether we have any towers over 40 stories or not? Perhaps building 1@45 and 1@17 is more expensive than 1@38 and 1@24. Or perhaps that doesn't yield the right combination of office, hotel, residential and retail that they need to make this work. It's not like having a 40+ building will "put us on the map" or give the city "a higher profile" or make it more attractive to prospective corporations, residents, shops, etc. It won't make one iota of difference to anybody but the skyscraper enthusiast.

Nothing personal! I just think that complaining over buildings being "not tall enough" is wasted breath.

its not really wasted breath...however, even if it doesnt matter what I think...I still want to know why we never get anything over 40 in DTR.  besides... this is so far away,  im sure it will change

[plus2]

I would like to see some sort of green feature on top of the parking deck.  Either a garden or greenhouse.  People from the two towers could walk directly from their building onto this space as a courtyard.

[MireLanski]

plus2, on Jul 18 2007, 01:10 PM, said:

I would like to see some sort of green feature on top of the parking deck.  Either a garden or greenhouse.  People from the two towers could walk directly from their building onto this space as a courtyard.

A green roof is being considered, as per Highwoods.

Edited by MireLanski, 18 July 2007 - 04:25 PM.

[bsutton1]

When I first saw the article this morning, I was a little disappointed about the height at first.  Now, I don't feel so bad about it.  These 2 towers will be a great addition to downtown.  I wonder though if their will be some retail parcels on the property not attached to either tower.. like the Epicentre.  I guess we'll wait and see til the first renderings come out.

[RALNATIVE]

shiftgreen, on Jul 18 2007, 11:09 AM, said:

I still want to know why we never get anything over 40 in DTR. besides... this is so far away, im sure it will change

I hate to admit it, but there are still ALOT of people in Raleigh who don't want to see very tall towers in Raleigh. They're afraid that we may become like NYC and people here aren't used to that. I've actually had someone say this to me.

bsutton1, on Jul 18 2007, 05:03 PM, said:

When I first saw the article this morning, I was a little disappointed about the height at first. Now, I don't feel so bad about it. These 2 towers will be a great addition to downtown.

You've got to admit though, based on the location of that tower, a 40+ story structure would look great from the money shot sitting behind the RBC Plaza.

[jfmecca]

Was the project actually presented to the city today like the article claims? Seems like that would be the kind of story that the N&O or WRAL would update on their websites in the afternoon.  

Either way, I'm excited to hear about more vertical growth downtown.

[RaleighRick]

Edited by RaleighRick, 18 July 2007 - 07:06 PM.

[RaleighRick]

I love tall buildings and can't wait for Raleigh to get a couple of 600'ers, but this is great news for downtown.  Two quality towers in a great new development is a huge step forward for Raleigh.  We will break the 40 story barrier one day soon, what we need right now are more well designed buildings.  Richmond has a very linear skyline and it is a beautiful city.  The quality of the design and the street level is more important than the overall height, IMHO.

[Spatula]

This would be taller than anything in Richmond anyway, by quite a bit. They don't have anything above 30 floors, 135 meters, unless there's been something new proposed.

[dmccall]

While the condo market currently suggests oversaturation of supply, the addition of a new building, with all of its unique features, not only slides the market over on the Supply curve, it actually shifts and bends the demand curve. Some people may want to live in a condo with a view, but hate the RBC tower's renderings, or want something in more of a community that isn't so isolated by businesses. It's a great day for us!