18 replies to this topic

[FloridaFuture]

New Port on hold

This is good news. Lower the prices so more people can afford tower living in a pretty nice area of town. Good views of the bay to.

this is one of the best projects outside of the downtown area. IMO

Edited by FloridaFuture, 21 October 2007 - 07:43 AM.

[FloridaFuture]

Renderings-











Source

Edited by FloridaFuture, 21 October 2007 - 07:48 AM.

[sunshine]

great project

[tombarnes]

It looks better in the rendering than in the model, but it's often difficult to tell too much from a model.  I think this will be great news for Tampa.

[FloridaFuture]

tombarnes, on Oct 22 2007, 05:52 PM, said:

It looks better in the rendering than in the model, but it's often difficult to tell too much from a model. I think this will be great news for Tampa.

Agreed. in the model it looks liek 70's office buildings.

In the rendering it at least has some blue glass.

Street/Water interaction looks good.

[hjack]

And now it is dead. It is being sold. The current investors, err, I mean buyers, have been given their deposits back. http://www2.tbo.com/...-put-on-market/
The property was bought for $74 mil (and that doesn't include the extravagant marketing "... the kick-off event for New Port in January of ’06 included $40 million in yachts, Cirque-style performers, a huge tent, live music, champagne and other entertainment...") and is now valued at $25 mil (OOOOUUUCH!!).
Just last week, I was talking to an aquaintence who purchased a condo there. I questioned his sanity. Seriously, how could anyone from Tampa buy into such nonsense? Where the hell were they going get over 1700 condo buyers (with the already glutted downtown condo market) in this blue collar town? They were right to aggressively go after the foreign market, but these people want beach or culture. Driving over to Clearwater for the beach doesn't cut it. I'm not convinced that fishing for foreigners is all that popular and boating around a town that has little to boat to doesn't cut it either. There are not enough amenities in Tampa to attract the foreign market  in large numbers. This "line" always cracks me up:"...He expects it to attract professionals tired of spending hours commuting from Carrolwood, Brandon or Tampa’s other distant suburbs...". Giving up the beautiful Rutenberg/Hanna Bartoletta pool home in North Tampa for a smaller condo that costs twice as much as the place you're walking away from...just to save yourself 20 minutes of commute (would hate to see the traffic around Gandy and Westshore if the WestShore Yacht Club and New Port were finished), is not worth it in my opinion. And the Tampa downtown business district is not that big, so I don't know why people think that everybody that wears a tie (or a smart skirt) in Tampa works there. There are far too many better housing opportunities in South Tampa to settle on New Port anyway.
54 acres for $74 mil. Like all real estate blunders, they overspent on the property. Then they got greedy to compensate for their overspending. IMO, a few dozen waterfront (sub $2mil) and off water (sub $800G) single family homes, with some town homes (sub $500G) and maybe one mega luxury tower condo would sell out. Instead, they had to get greedy and pile in as many people as they could, for as much as they could, even though the area is clearly not ready for it. I hope the next project will be more down to earth...but I doubt it will.

hjack

[tombarnes]

Perhaps something more realistic will arise in its place.  It's a tough market in many places right now, but you may have a point about Tampa being an even tougher nut to crack for condo developers.  I would still like to see the idea of living downtown take off in Tampa.  I don't doubt the alluring amenities of the suburbs, but these are practically the same in any city.  The yards are always bigger, the pools deeper and bluer and the sun just shines brighter for many people who prefer the suburbs.  Good for them.  The market for downtown living in Tampa shouldn't be discounted because of this project alone, though your blunt assessment may not be far off the mark.  This isn't a great time for condos now, but I think if the builders return with a more realistic project, something might actually happen.

[hjack]

tombarnes, on Oct 27 2007, 10:17 AM, said:

Perhaps something more realistic will arise in its place.  It's a tough market in many places right now, but you may have a point about Tampa being an even tougher nut to crack for condo developers.  I would still like to see the idea of living downtown take off in Tampa.  I don't doubt the alluring amenities of the suburbs, but these are practically the same in any city.  The yards are always bigger, the pools deeper and bluer and the sun just shines brighter for many people who prefer the suburbs.  Good for them.  The market for downtown living in Tampa shouldn't be discounted because of this project alone, though your blunt assessment may not be far off the mark.  This isn't a great time for condos now, but I think if the builders return with a more realistic project, something might actually happen.

Yeah, I was pretty blunt. I grew up in the Northeast (Toronto, Philadelphia) where condos are aplenty. I believe that to be $uccessful, condominiums should be built out of need (limited space, lots of people), not out of greed (lot's of space, not a lot of people, let's rape the market anyway). That was essentially the basis of my rant. There is no need for anyone to buy a high priced condo in that part of town, except for optomistic speculators. Period. The people with that type of money (and I include myself) can get, comparitively, better waterfront deals elsewhere. Why the hell, would I pay over 1 mill for a 3 BR waterfront condo over there when I can get 2 waterfront townhomes on Harbour Island for the same price? Seddon Cove condos (more expensive than the Channel facing townhomes) on HI have great water views, 2 floors, docks, and you can rub shoulders with half the pro athletes in Tampa. (OK, yes I live on HI...) And Tampa is essentially all suburb with a small downtown, so it's not like commuting from Long Island to Manhattan for 1.5 hours. Hyde Park, Beach Park, Palma Ceia, Bayshore, etc are beautiful suburban retreats right beside downtown. So the North Tampa people have many more "Southern" choices than just Channelside, Westshore Yacht Club, or New Port condominiums. There needs to be more of a culture (that the community will support) downtown to entice people to spend the big bucks to stay there. Again, most of the people they need to attract, DO NOT WORK DOWNTOWN, so if they are trying to get people to move there, there should be something more enticing than short downtown commute times.

[tombarnes]

I will readily concur that short commuting time alone is not sufficient reason to move to an area.  It would help to get an idea of the pulse of Tampa's downtown area.  Ybor City has more restaurants and so on?  I hate the idea of giving up on a downtown area.  The whole residents vs. activity thing is a paradox.  One wilol not happen without the other- at least not usually.  You have a valid point about perceived value as well.  The number of people willing to sacrifice space for convenience is what sells these units in most cases.  I suppose your "convenient to what?" query has a ring of truth.  Isn't Tampa's downtown area going to evolve?   I'd think it would, if given half a chance.  What are they key elements you think are missing from the downtown area?  Jobs?

[hjack]

tombarnes, on Oct 31 2007, 09:25 AM, said:

I will readily concur that short commuting time ialone is not sufficient reason to move to an area.  It would help to get an idea of the pulse of Tampa's downtown area.  Ybor City has more restaurants and so on?  I hate the idea of giving up on a downtown area.  The whole residents vs. activity thing is a paradox.  One wilol not happen without the other- at least not usually.  You have a valid point about perceived value as well.  The number of people willing to sacrifice space for convenience is what sells these units in most cases.  I suppose your "convenient to what?" query has a ring of truth.  Isn't Tampa's downtown area going to evolve?   I'd think it would, if given half a chance.  What are they key elements you think are missing from the downtown area?  Jobs?

A pulse is correct. There shouldn't be haphazard random events. There should be some sort of enjoyable outlet that has routine. Something that you would look forward to doing on a regular basis. Something you would bring your friends/family to, and that they in turn would look forward to. I was there in Philadelphia when it went from Filthadelphia in the 80's to the place to be in the mid 90's. The turn around was not by happenstance, it was directed by the mayor. The campaign was, "Make It A Night In Philly" (or to that effect). Every Wednesday night (and I mean EVERY Wednesday night) something was going on in center city. As well, they cleaned up the streets, pushed out the indigent, and encouraged retail stores and restaurants to stay open late. It worked.
In Tampa, The Riverwalk project will work if done right. There damn well better be some good restaurants, vendors/retail, and events during the evening. Some pull up by boat waterfront dining (nothing is better to pull in the "in crowd", which in turn pulls in everyone else,  than allowing the pretentious to show off) would be idea. Now the boaters have some places to go to in the evening.
I think they missed a golden opportunity at Channelside. I believe they should have closed off 12th St from Kennedy to Channelside to vehicular traffic. The street, could of then been populated with restaurants, outdoor cafes, vendors, similar to Lincoln Road in South Beach, Miami (ofcourse, there would need to be proper parking accomodation). A "12th St Walk" would have served as a nice ending/starting point for the River Walk. Maybe Franklin Street would work, but it isn't in as strategic a location since it doesn't lead to Channelside.
Sometimes, the simple things can also be a great crowd drawer. Believe it or not, a nice large, downtown Borders would be a nice hangout for the people coming off of work. (It was in Philly) Even the one on Dale Mawbry is relatively active up to 11pm on a weeknight. A good music store like a mega Virgin record store might also be able to draw in the casual customer. And no downtown video store? Jeesh.
I have other thoughts to really opening up Tampa, but they are very pie in the sky and perhaps fiscally insane.

[tombarnes]

Nothing wrong with "pie in the sky" as long as you are a baker.  As you say, cities with big dreams tend to accomplish more than cities which take Sominex.  A downtown bookstore can be more of a catalyst than people realize.  When I lived in Philadelphia, the presence of Borders in Chestnut Hill and Barnes & Noble on Rittenhouse Square got me out of Germantown every time (yes, I am one of those weird guys who reads books).  Philadelphia is still a mixed bag, but they have revived Center City.  The same thinking could revive Tampa.

[hjack]

HeyTombarnes, when were you in Philly? We're talking about the same Rittenhouse area. I used to go to the Barnes & Noble there, but I got seduced by the newer larger Borders a few doors down.
My pie in the sky dream would be to open up all the rivers around Tampa by adding locks and raising bridges so that everyone on the river would have access to the Bay. As well, more points of interest could pop up along the rivers. Imagine the people in Temple Terrace being able to get out to the Bay and being able to stop off for lunch before they even got to Palm River. What would that do to property values? My biggest fantasy would be to move the shipping docks along the channel further south and creating a high class (well, better than Atlantic City) Tampa Riviera in its place. And how about the world's fastest train between Tampa and Orlando, essentially joining a children's paradise to an adult's paradise by a 15 minute train ride (which would be an attraction itself). Create a beach at McKays Bay and sink the ugly power lines to the bay floor. The ecologists/epa would surely assassinate me for even having such thoughts... Just a dream...

[Florida]

Great renderings "my"Future . My office handles the wetslip (marina) portion of these type of projects. Looks like this one will be a good revenue generator. I'm going to go down the hall to see if my co-worker has heard of this project since this is her district. I'd like to see the water look as blue as it does in those renderings when this is complete. I hope this isn't in an aquatic preserve or manatee/sensitive area.

[Florida]

Upon a second look, it appears this place has over 200 wet slips. I can just imagine the sq. footage. FYI, currently our rate per sq.ft. is approximately $.14  per square/year. I'd love to know what the name of this project is, or if you have the address, that would be even better.

[hjack]

"Great renderings "my"Future grin.png. My office handles the wetslip (marina) portion of these type of projects. Looks like this one will be a good revenue generator. I'm going to go down the hall to see if my co-worker has heard of this project since this is her district."

??
Florida, are you reading this thread? This project (New Port) is dead.

[tombarnes]

What, if anything, might take its place?

[hjack]

"What, if anything, might take its place?"

Should be enough room for a pro baseball stadium...

[FloridaFuture]

I expect something similar, maybe with some better looking towers to take this place. That land it to valueble (and of course, it's waterfront too) to be exclusviley made into something like townhomes or single family homes. Especially with the 3 tower Westshore Yacht club next door.

[Florida]

hjack, on Nov 9 2007, 05:06 AM, said:

Florida, are you reading this thread? This project (New Port) is dead.

I only read this last page, I didn't see anything to indicate it was a dead project, but thanks for filling me in.

Edited by Florida, 26 November 2007 - 10:17 AM.